OOTS #617 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tal9922]

Updated right when I was online :smallsmile:
mm'gonna go read it now kay.

EDIT: Heh.

[Ezbez]

Wow, Crystal really is that dumb?

[RMS Oceanic]

That's certainly taking a third option!

I wonder what this means if Haley/Belkar has already killed Crystal and Bozzak...

[Yendor]

Awesome. Super lawyer powers activate!

(Typo in panel 8: "May the gods of forgive me...")

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Can't wait to see people complaining about this one now.

[Oregano]

Hm, was an alright strip would have preferred more Belkster murderising though.

[jmucchiello]

The only way there won't be too many complaints is if
Celia negotiates Haley into leadership of the guild.

[sun_tzu]

Good to see Celia being effective. I was starting to seriously miss that.

[Checkmate]

I think it is wonderful of completely in character she reacted.

[RMS Oceanic]

The only way there won't be too many complaints is if
Celia negotiates Haley into leadership of the guild.

You know, if Haley manages to beat Crystal and Bozzak, I could see that happening.

[neoseph7]

You see it coming a mile away. As soon as they mention contracts. Not that that's a bad thing. But still very predictable. Amongst other things, it leads one to beleive Hank is going to be the new guildmaster, and that Celia is going to draft up new procedures so that Haley Isn't killed for having left the city.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Woot for Celia! The old act was getting stale. She doesn't have to be an ass-kicker, but she needs to be somewhat useful. And once again, she is!

[Miraqariftsky]

"...legal pad"--- Ha-ha-ha!

Jolly good show, Giant.


Woot for Celia! The old act was getting stale. She doesn't have to be an ass-kicker, but she needs to be somewhat useful. And once again, she is!

You could say she kicks ass legally...

[Ruerl]

I think it is wonderful of completely in character she reacted.

Seconded, and it made me chuckle.

[RMS Oceanic]

I also chuckled at Roy's reference to the fact that Sylphs are usually small-sized.

[OperationTREX]

Not what I expected, but here is to hoping Belkar gets in on the guild action.

I mean they do induct fighters now, and he is a bad ass and all. Plus you know, murder.

He's a good fit.

[Firelock_ny]

Celia, not an adventurer - even in the midst of the bloody retirement party for much of this thieves' guild, she finds a third way beyond kill or be killed. *Very* nice twist there, Giant.

[King of Nowhere]

Is the fighter guy dead? What Celia did? I had to read her speech 3-4 times to make its sense. Nice.

[SnowballMan]

Awesome. Super lawyer powers activate!

(Typo in panel 8: "May the gods of forgive me...")

And here I thought there were gods specifically dedicated to forgiving.

Thieves against a lawyer... anyone want to take money on who loots whom?

Long odds are on the thieves.

[RMS Oceanic]

Is the fighter guy dead? What Celia did? I had to read her speech 3-4 times to make its sense. Nice.

No, just knocked to the floor. Probably due to surprise.

[Rheb]

Nice one:thog:

[Thorin]

I want her as my lawyer!

[AceofDeath]

Another great comic :smalltongue:

[Captain Six]

Thieves against a lawyer... anyone want to take money on who loots whom?

Long odds are on the thieves.

I dunno, so far lawyers seem to be pretty powerful. Especially the ones sent by the spooky wizard who lives by the coast.

[Kilbia]

Celia, you dummy! Hank just said nobody leaves the Guild except in a casket, but he didn't say anything about the Guild's members protecting each other. With that bit about possessions reverting to the Guild upon death, the only thing that's gonna keep Haley alive by doing this is the fact that she's recently gone bankrupt on a couple of occasions.

[LuisDantas]

Is the fighter guy dead? What Celia did? I had to read her speech 3-4 times to make its sense. Nice.

Yor's fine. Celia only knocked him away with her lightning. He's not even unconscious - you can see he seat on the floor behind Roy's astral form in the last panel.

Celia apparently want to take advantage of the new fact that Celia is still a Guild member, for good or worse. Either she hopes to convince the Guild to give her some sort of late benefits, or just to stall for time until Haley and/or Belkar arrive.

[WarriorTribble]

Well that made no sense. Celia has nothing to bargain with, and the halfling isn't in a position to neogotiate anything on behalf of the Guild. What game is Rich playing here?

[Shatteredtower]

Well played, Giant. Well... played.

[Raz_Fox]

I certainly wasn't expecting that - will Haley be rejoining the Thieves' Guild? I wonder what Celia's got up her fey sleeves...

BTW, we need a Celia smiley, don't we? :smallbiggrin:

[Bendal]

I don't see the incentive for the thieves to deal with Celia. Other than negotiating with her not to blast them with lightning, that is.

First page, woohoo!

Rats, just the second page. You guys are fast!

[Yoyoyo]

Well that made no sense. Celia has nothing to bargain with, and the halfling isn't in a position to neogotiate anything on behalf of the Guild. What game is Rich playing here?

I don't know about that. Hank said he doesn't want to see anyone die (something for Celia to bargin with) and he is a higher up in the Guild (so in a position to negotiate), and who knows what sort of offer Celia intends to make. Hank, like many rouges, is an opportunist. Makes sense to negotiate, cut losses (which are mounting) and get the best deal.

[Iain]

Hah! :smallamused:

[Jaffo]

Giant got me again.

Every time I think we're headed down a predictable story path, I'm wrong.

I'd love to ask Rich, Do you think forum pressure has made you a better writer?

Knowing that 10,000 fanboys will leap on anything simple, cliched, or contrived, does that make you work harder to take the story in unexpected directions?

You can't be too surreal or you'll lose them, but you can't be too straightforward or you'll bore them to death.

I think all good writing comes from trying to stay between those two extremes.

[dish]

I also had to read twice to figure out what was going on here - but then I'm a little tired now.

Ok, well, it is good to see Celia doing something useful again. We do know she's an excellent lawyer, so I'm sure she'll manage to get a good deal for Haley, but precisely what will that end up being?

[pendell]

Well that made no sense. Celia has nothing to bargain with, and the halfling isn't in a position to neogotiate anything on behalf of the Guild. What game is Rich playing here?


Sure she does. She's offering negotiation as an alternative to blasting them all with lightning.
Hank, being reasonable and keen to ensure his own survival, is more than willing to negotiate in order to avoid a fight he might not win.

WELL played on Celia's part. A dose of intimidation followed up with an offer to negotiate. I want her as my lawyer too.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RMS Oceanic]

The deal will depend almost entirely on when negotiations are complete, and who Haley's managed to kill in that time. My basic guess: Haley is an official card-carrying member again, and her assignment is to continue pursuing the Snarl quest, seeing as how not existing is detrimental to Guild profits.

[Blaznak]

Ah, thats the exact same power I feel when I represent clients...
Except for the wings.
Oh, and the lightning.
But the glowy eye thing? I'm all over that...

Later!

[tribble]

"May the gods of forgive me"? lolwut?

[King of Nowhere]

I don't understand: what exactly Celia did that is "against everything that she's been taught"? I don't think using a non letal zap counts; it may be contracting with thieves?

[Haven]

Good to see Celia back in her element.

Er, besides being in the air, that is.

Anyway, I always like seeing thieves being so concerned about the law. I'm reminded of the trial scene in "M" where the criminals point out that they're all experts in legal matters.

Still, I'm expecting Celia to lawyer circles around Hank. If nothing else, negotiating will keep them busy until Mr "I'm bringing the onions-to make you cry!" is finished off.

Along those lines,

Celia just might gain some respect for Hank while they talk it out--only for Haley to come kill him after finishing the half-orc (who, having come up with that onions line, no longer gets to have a name). Angst ensues.

Alternatively, she convinces Haley to spare him, so that everyone's learned a valuable lesson about not killing everyone.

[Linkavitch]

Huh. She's going to lawyer them to death? They must run in terror.

[Kaytara]

Finally, another comic! :) I'm glad. ^^ I actually had a dream this night that somehow I missed on 5-6 updates and I vividly remember catching up on them, panel by panel and I remember exactly what the panels looked like and what the characters said... Talk about bizarre.

In other news, other than the already mentioned typo, in panel five Roy appears to be solid rather than incorporeal, which is probably a mistake.

[Kaytara]

Finally, another comic! :) I'm glad. ^^ I actually had a dream this night that somehow I missed on 5-6 updates and I vividly remember catching up on them, panel by panel and I remember exactly what the panels looked like and what the characters said... Talk about bizarre.

In other news, other than the already mentioned typo, in panel five Roy appears to be solid rather than incorporeal, which is probably a mistake.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Celia, not an adventurer - even in the midst of the bloody retirement party for much of this thieves' guild, she finds a third way beyond kill or be killed. *Very* nice twist there, Giant.

Yes, very. And unlike some others, I did not see that coming. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

[tsaylor]

I was confused when they were demanding magic items from Celia so I backtracked to figure it out. Here's the relevant comic if anyone else was confused too.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html

[chiasaur11]

Nicely done, Celia.

Unleashing the bare minimum of violence required, then moving into your area of expertise?

A pretty good plan, all in all.

Nice one, Giant!

[B.I.T.T.]

Good comic.

I'd forgotten Celia was a lawyer.

[[sWc]Konman]

great comic. i just hope it doesnt turn into the trial scene all over again. last time legal issues came into hand, there was just too much damn trouble.

*cue V to come in a disintegrate hank*

[TerrickTerran]

Wow, for once I actually liked Celia there.:smallbiggrin: That was the most fun comic in a while.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Ah, look, Celia being useful. :P Gotta love Roy's lines in the beginning - lampshade both the size issue and Celia always being the one needing rescuing. Good comic, and I'll be interested to see how this situation plays out.

[Nevitan]

Hm, I would of preferred to see some dead thieves, but I guess this is.. something too.

[FlawedParadigm]

I note Roy has, in death, had a growing role as "the voice of the forums", generally shouting out the kind of advice that most of the posters here do or would to Celia and Haley.

I also note that, in this role, he has been uniformly and utterly wrong on all counts as to the proper choice of action. I wonder if there's a message there?

More importantly, I wonder if Roy himself is keeping notes for future nuggets of wisdom when he's returned to the land of the living.

[rman]

Points

a) Haley is a guild member
b) the guild generally accepts promotion by death/murder/assasination
c) from b) the more powerful the higher your rank


I would assume that by the guild rules, Haleys penalty for "leaving" is naturally void should she be able to kill the leadership. That accomplished and with the neutralization/elimination of Crystal, Haley becomes the head of the guild. Hank appreas reasonably intelligent, he and the others should clearly be able to accept that logic when Belkar shows up with Bozzak's head.

The guild can then "request" Roys body back from the alchemist.

[fangthane]

I expect the issue with the gods of " " will probably be retrofixed as I'm sure it wasn't deliberate that Celia neglected to be specific; nice that she's being given an opportunity, after a good deal of feeling useless to the group, to make use of her legal acumen. Could be interesting in terms of what she negotiates though; what seems important to Haley or anyone else may not seem so to her, so while she's liable to get most of what she wants, it may not be quite what Haley or anyone else would've picked.

Still... I was sort of hoping for a bit of Team Evil action; maybe some more Teevo. :smallbiggrin:

[Morchaint]

hmm. I expected more. more belkar I guess.

I think the legalese is to waste time so the Haley and or Belkar can get there and free her.

and if the comic and thread were up at 7am why couldnt I read them til at least 11 am my time? wtf?!

wish the time between comics was shorter, but I guess its not wise to rush
comedic gold. or bronze in todays comic situation.

[Post-Man]

I don't think we can fully say wether Celia has actually "saved the day" yet or not. Depending on Hank/Celias' Law savvy and any critical rolls missed or made on either of their parts during the process, this could end up going either very good or very, very badly for Haley.

In other words, Celia may just have begun a process which ends up with Haley as a virtual slave of the guild. I wonder if that's against Celias' "Code" or not.

[Eran of Arcadia]

So, the real question no one has asked yet is this: does this prove Belkar is CN now?

;) Actually, good job.

[dogmac]

You go Celia!

I liked the way she managed to ask all the relevant questions whilst still held. She may be a lousy adventurer but she has a very good brain.

[nybbler]

On the good side: Hank's out of his league, and could well end up giving away the whole guild to Haley (not that Bozzak would honor any such agreement).

On the bad side: This could be the Giant's ploy to make Haley give up the Arch-O-Ry bow :-(

[Qov]

I don't understand: what exactly Celia did that is "against everything that she's been taught"?
How about the fact that she's negotiating on behalf of Haley, when Haley hasn't authorized her to legally represent her in this matter?

[David Argall]

Have to wait for another strip or two before I'll decide if this is clever or stupid.

I will say her idea is possibly better than Roy's. They are standing in a room full of magic missile weapons and Celia can't have many hp. The idea of frying them with lightning bolts is likely superior to standing there and letting them stab you, but beyond annoying the foe, the final result looks to be much the same.

But what does Celia really have to offer? Assuming that Bozzak & Haley don't settle the situation permanently before any deal can be made, her situation is not promising. She owes our little old golem maker something around 100,000 gp, a few raise deads for the more useful members of the guild and various other costs. At last report, Haley has little or nothing to pay that with, beyond what she stole from the golem maker, which of course will merely reduce her debt.
A story about how she is trying to save the world? Yeah right... I'm supposed to believe this story coming from a lawyer?

Now Belkar might be valuable property here. Or there could be some special task that needs doing.

But until I hear just what, I'm going to be unsure about this one.

[Assassin89]

Celia is becoming more useful in this comic and she is killing the damsel in distress trope in the process.

[Sequinox]

I was actually hoping that she would just kill them and get it over with... Does that make me a bad person?

[Liwen]

You know, if Haley manages to beat Crystal and Bozzak, I could see that happening.

All hail the new thieve's guild boss!

:haley: whuh?

I always wanted you to be our leader, m'mam

I never liked him anyway

[Shadic]

Roy isn't partially transparent in panel five. Art mistake?

[Inhuman Bot]

Awesome.

That answeard several common gripes in one fel swoop.

[pearl jam]

I dunno, so far lawyers seem to be pretty powerful. Especially the ones sent by the spooky wizard who lives by the coast.

Long odds are on the underdogs, so the previous poster is saying that the lawyer is expected to win.

[Lizard Lord]

I also chuckled at Roy's reference to the fact that Sylphs are usually small-sized.

*Insert comment about the size of OotS goblins here*

[Lord_Ventnor]

And the moral of this story, children, is that you should never, ever fight a lawyer.

[Deme]

Very nice strip, as always.

It's fun to see Celia the lawyer as opposed to "Celia the somewhat annoying girl." Even if it doesn't work out, it's a part of her I've been missing.

[Ridureyu]

I wonder if this will result in the Guild killing Bozzak? Crystal could get some good XP for it, which would also benefit Haley, and the two could go on their merry way, levelling up for each other.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Odd comic, and doesn't make much sense to me .... :smallconfused:

[Lira]

Not bad. It's good to see things progressing and it looks like this arc will be wrapping up soon.
I honestly didn't expect that ending, so good job Giant. :smalltongue: As always, I can't wait to see what the next strip brings.

[Zienth]

I don't think Haley has ever given power of attorney to Celia. So Celia can negotiate a deal all she wants, but Haley wouldn't have to agree to it. But the negotiations take time and time is on Celia's side. At least Hank isn't using Celia as a hostage to get Haley to give up.

Then again, Celia was Haley's attorney at the trial back in Azure City, so she had some degree of power of attorney. But I don't think being a representative at trial in the past could be stretched to giving her power to negotiate contracts now.

Here's my prediction (probably worth every penny that you're paying for it):

Hank's got to be pretty high up in the Guild. Maybe #2, behind Bozzak. On the other hand I think it has been mentioned that the Guild allows succession via combat (has it, or am I just imagining that?). So if Haley & Belkar kill Bozzak, and since Haley is still a Guild member, she would become GuildMistress. Huzzah! Then she can change the rules to allow herself to resign from the Guild with no penalty, leaving Hank as GuildMaster. Hank seems like a pretty lawful fellow, and since everything was done by Guild rules, he'd let her go. He'd probably be busy enough consolidating control over the Guild, anyway.


Zienth

[hajo]

Konman;5500399']last time legal issues came into hand, there was just too much damn trouble
The Trial of the century (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) ? That wasn't that much trouble :smallwink:

BTW, what is a "legal pad" ?

[Samurai Jill]

Pretty good strip.

...Gods of what, though?

[Heads_or_Tails]

The twist I didn't expect, however something that seems not to be brought up is that Haley is chaotic. Even if Celia manages to negotiate a contract that winds up with Haley a virtual slave to the guild, what's going to stop her doing a runner?

[Trazoi]

Origins of PCs spoiler:

From Origins of PCs, I thought Hank generally didn't approve of Bozzak's way of running things, plus Hank liked or at least respected Haley as a thief, which is why he gave her a warning. Hank also seemed fairly influential in the guild at the time, as well as now. He also seemed good or neutral aligned, which puts him at odds with Bozzak and Crystal.

From that, I don't think Hank wants to harm Haley. If Bozzak and Crystal were taken out of the picture, he would not need much convincing to let Haley be. I could even see him justifying it by getting the Starshines (Haley and her dad) on board due to the need for top thieves.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

BTW, what is a "legal pad" ?

It's an 8 1/2" x 17" pad of (usually) yellow lined paper, used by lawyers and business people as an oversized scratchpad. Google images might be a good place to do a search... :smallsmile:

[NakedCelt]

Who is this "Bozzak" people keep talking about? Is he any relation to Bozzok?

[Trazoi]

Who is this "Bozzak" people keep talking about? Is he any relation to Bozzok?
He's his second cousin once removed. Try to keep up! :smallwink:

[Assassin89]

He's his second cousin once removed. Try to keep up! :smallwink:

You mean like the relationship between Zykon and Xykon or Haley and Haily?

[ss49]

Bozzak is Xyklon and the TitS's long-lost 1/2 brother.

[fractal]

You mean like the relationship between Zykon and Xykon or Haley and Haily?
That's nothing compared to Shinjo.

[Greep]

Who is this "Bozzak" people keep talking about? Is he any relation to Bozzok?

pffft, nah bozzak is a pedantic forum poster.

[Bitzeralisis]

...

What? >.>

[Holammer]

Most confusing OotS strip to date I reckon. Also the least expected story twist. A bonafide double whammy!
lolwhut? indeed.

[Sir_Norbert]

Absolutely gorgeous. That's the Celia I know and love, right back in the comic where she belongs.

[Ceric]

Great comic! Celia isn't so useless now.

Also, her wing healed?

[Moriarty]

english not being my first language, i had a hard time understanding those lawery dialogues. its not really funny when you have to read the comic 3 times to understand whats going on =/


guess i need more belkar to saturate my incredibly intellectual taste of humour

[holywhippet]

Judging from this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html I'd say Hank might be amongst those who dislike Bozzok. Hank could also have been a friend of Haley's father given that he seems to be amongst the "less violent" members of the guild.

[frankwolftown]

This current story reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica episode.
First rule of legal thermodynamics: When the irresistible force meets the immovable object stand, stand back and wait for the class action suit. :smallbiggrin:
I think Belkar vs the Guild has proven that. Now we get to see what Celia and Haley will do.

[SirEdward]

And here I thought there were gods specifically dedicated to forgiving.

Thieves against a lawyer... anyone want to take money on who loots whom?

Long odds are on the thieves.
Ahem...

"There must be a hundred silver dollars in here," moaned Boggis, waving a purse. "I mean, that's not my league. That's not my class. I can't handle that sort of money. You've got to be in the Guild of Lawyers or something to steal that much."
I suppose that Celia would prove more useful to the TG than any of the PC's.

[kreszantas]

It's an 8 1/2" x 17" pad of (usually) yellow lined paper, used by lawyers and business people as an oversized scratchpad. Google images might be a good place to do a search... :smallsmile:

Correction: Legal Pad is actually 8 1/2" x 14" and is also used in most court proceedings & recordings. Surfing HalfOrc you may have accidently hit the wrong key there.

[Ramidel]

Missing a word here:

"May the gods of forgive me." Third to last panel, Celia. I think.

[Corwin Weber]

I don't understand: what exactly Celia did that is "against everything that she's been taught"? I don't think using a non letal zap counts; it may be contracting with thieves?

She's effectively negotiating with the mob.

[Ghastly Epigram]

Incidentally, the reason some people are spelling it Bozzak rather than Bozzok is because that is how it was spelled in On the Origin of the PCs. :smallsmile:

[gjp]

That was awesome and too funny at the same time.. rofl...

so guess who probably inherits leadership of the guild due to father being MIA?

LOLZ...

figures Celia would find a loophole in the fight somehow

[Phexar]

I don't know about that. Hank said he doesn't want to see anyone die (something for Celia to bargin with) and he is a higher up in the Guild (so in a position to negotiate), and who knows what sort of offer Celia intends to make. Hank, like many rouges, is an opportunist. Makes sense to negotiate, cut losses (which are mounting) and get the best deal.

My thoughts exactly. :smallsmile:

[Assassin89]

Apparently Bozzok will be ruined not only by the actions of a lawyer, but by the mounting dislike of his actions by the other thieves.

[Toper]

Hee hee. Yay Celia. Supposing Bozzok goes down to Haley and Belkar, I wonder if Hank would forgive Haley's debts in return for Guild leadership and, say, 35% of her future income in perpetuity?

[Assassin89]

Hee hee. Supposing Bozzok goes down to Haley and Belkar, I wonder if Hank would forgive Haley's debts in return for Guild leadership and, say, 35% of her future income in perpetuity?

:haley: Make it 25% and we have a deal

[mroozee]

When I read this, I thought Celia's offer pretty clear...

Haley and Belkar will finish off Bozzok (and possibly Crystal) giving Hank dominion over the Thieves' Guild. Hank can also loot the homes of Pete, Bozzok, and any of the other recently deceased that aren't valuable enough to raise to fulfill Celia's promise of gold and magic. If Hank weren't looking for the power grab, why would he be the one to negotiate with?

What can the OOTS'ers ask in exchange for this service? I think they'll get the bow, settling up with Grubwiggler (hopefully it doesn't include Celia's body), Roy's body, and be escorted out of the city (who knows... maybe in caskets).

[Morchaint]

Im hoping for a Belkar and Mr. Scruffy interruption just as the ink on the document is still wet. Darn it Celia. just fry the stupid idiots and have done with it. sigh.. I still say this is a time wasting ploy but Celia is so good as a lawyer it looks really legal.

She wont kill ppl with lightning but gives roy a talisman that REQUIRES electricity?!!!

Im still waiting to catch up to varsuvius ( no I cannot spell the elfs name )
and the little imp its been a while since that story part.

would that we could have cut aways. = double comics.

oh well. We'll get another comic soon. I hope its soon.

[the_tick_rules]

I believe this is called aggressive negotiations.

[Hallavast]

When I first read Celia's punchline it took a while for the humor to sink in. It's one of those jokes that is funnier when you describe it to someone. Very funny.

I think Celia's just trying to stall for time here (which reduces risk of getting drawn into a sidenote while maximizing the joke's effect).

Well done.

[Corwin Weber]

When I first read Celia's punchline it took a while for the humor to sink in. It's one of those jokes that is funnier when you describe it to someone. Very funny.

I think Celia's just trying to stall for time here (which reduces risk of getting drawn into a sidenote while maximizing the joke's effect).

Well done.

Honestly, I thought Hank immediately demanding a legal pad was more the punchline.... I mean, he didn't even blink.

[David Argall]

Sure she does. She's offering negotiation as an alternative to blasting them all with lightning.
Hank, being reasonable and keen to ensure his own survival, is more than willing to negotiate in order to avoid a fight he might not win.
On the available evidence, he is a snap to win. There are a wall of missile weapons, and Celia is unlikely to have good AC [12?] or HP [10?]. We can improve that a little, but she is a non-combatant, vigorously so. She just should not have much in either category.
And the rogues have evasion, and very good reflex saves. Approximately, Celia would have to shoot 20 lightning bolts at Hank to have a hope of dropping him. Hank will in the meantime hit her with about 60 arrows, and
may need only 1 hit to drop her.
Now Celia may be able to escape. She blasts the door and flees. I'd rate her chance at less than 50-50, but that is still way better than combat.



On the good side: Hank's out of his league,
What makes you think so? Remember that Celia is just a law student. She won her case because the fix was in. While she may have done a good job, Haley tells us that the honest verdict would have been guilty. So we have no grounds for deeming her any epic hotshot.
Now we don't know Hank's exact talents, but he has been a high up in the guild for years, and what we have seen is consistent with lawyerly duties. On the face of it, Hank is the heavy favorite [and since giving the PC a hard time is a standard goal of game or story, having Hank con Celia is a story desirable development. Maybe Haley and Belkar win and go to the library to loot, only to find Celia holding their new contract, which requires them to ...]

[brionl]

Uh oh, Haley dun brung a lawyer to a knife fight. This could get ugly. :)


I don't think Haley even wants to be head of the Thieve's Guild. Celia knows that Belkar & Haley will both be after Bozzok shortly so he's probably out of the picture for a while. Negotiations will be along the lines of a cease-fire against Haley, leaving Hank in charge of the guild.

Durkon will show up just in time to be too late to save the day. In #578 there was something rattling around in Roy's boot. If that was a toebone or something that should be enough for a Resurrection and they won't even have to worry about retrieving the Roygolem from Grubwriggler.

[Draz74]

Honestly, I thought Hank immediately demanding a legal pad was more the punchline.... I mean, he didn't even blink.

Nope, just scowled.

Hard to tell if it was a leftover scowl from earlier panels. But I think he was trying to demonstrate his annoyance with Celia having outclassed him in legal loopholes, and turning his own rhetoric around back at him.

Either way, though, I think he's secretly glad she's using this tactic. Judging by what I remember of OtOoPCs, as well as his comments on "sexy content" during the Thieves' Guild Recap, I think he actually likes Haley quite a bit.

I always did kinda like Hank. I wavered a bit earlier in this same fight, but now he's back on my good side. Hooray for "Belkar (?) kills Bozzok, Hank becomes leader of the Guild"!

[Castamir]

I hope you're aware it's a matter of 500XP, or, if you can't cast that, 3000gp, to be medium for the rest of your life.
Heck, it Enlarge Person includes sperm, it may even be heritable.

[Hatchet]

When I saw the title "Power Meeting" my first thought was that it will be about Vaarsuvius meeting Quarr. Thankfully, the Giant isn't big on cutting away in the middle of the action.

I can't wait to see Celia twisting the rules to her purposes once again.

[fractal]

I hope you're aware it's a matter of 500XP, or, if you can't cast that, 3000gp, to be medium for the rest of your life.
Heck, it Enlarge Person includes sperm, it may even be heritable.
Ignoring all of the ridiculous aspects of this theory, note that Celia (and presumably her ancestors) are not humanoids, and therefore not subject to Enlarge Person. The spell won't work.

[Morgan Wick]

I barely understand this strip, and I understand it even less upon hearing all the chitter-chatter about Crystal and Bozzok on the first page.

[Graymayre]

Now that is how you make a pacifist awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[kierthos]

So, if Celia succeeds, Haley is back in the Guild. Then, if Bozzok tries to kill her after Hank has informed him of such, it's probably some violation of the charter, and Bozzok is the one out of the Guild... (with the help of some Hank, Yor and nameless guy attacks.)

I LIKE IT.

[Forealms]

(Typo in panel 8: "May the gods of forgive me...")

Also, if anyone hasn't noticed by now, Roy isn't translucent in panel 5 like he should be.

[shakes019]

I don't see how any of the guild could possibly have Hank's stated philosophy. Well, at least any of the rogues in the guild.

Trying to maintain a guild of 3.5 edition (any non-lawful) rogues would be like herding cats.

On the other hand, the little almost-off-panel argument between Hank and the unnamed rogue about vampires in the guild was brilliant.

[Dilvish]

Missing a word here:

"May the gods of forgive me." Third to last panel, Celia. I think.

I don't think it is a typo or missing word. Celia is referring to the gods' portfolio. Replace forgive me with forgiveness or forgiving and I think you'll get the intention of what Celia said.

Regarding Celia being a medium-sized member of a small-sized race, she is medium-sized because it suits the story. Besides, not everything in OoTS is By the Book, D&D-wise. The world couldn't work otherwise.

[appending_doom]

When I saw contracts, I thought she was going to try to help them renegotiate better percentages for themselves in exchange for living.

Guess I'm not good at anticipating the Giant. ;)

[factotum]

I don't think it is a typo or missing word. Celia is referring to the gods' portfolio. Replace forgive me with forgiveness or forgiving and I think you'll get the intention of what Celia said.


It still doesn't make sense as written, so it's a typo no matter how you slice it. "May the gods forgive me" would make sense, as would "May the gods of forgiveness forgive me" (although a bit clumsy, it's grammatically correct). The written sentence is neither.

As for Celia being Medium-sized, so were the other two elemental guardians in Dorukan's Dungeon. For that matter, so were Celia's boyfriend and the dryad he was with when she explained why she'd gone back to law school. This suggests strongly that sylphs and other elementals are Medium in Rich's world, no matter what the RAW says.

[Odival]

I don't understand: what exactly Celia did that is "against everything that she's been taught"? I don't think using a non letal zap counts; it may be contracting with thieves?


She's effectively negotiating with the mob.

Cmon guys! Negotiating AT ALL, is against everything u're taught in the Law School, u gotta win any case no matter what, so negotiating is like call it a even.

[teratorn]

Cmon guys! Negotiating AT ALL, is against everything u're taught in the Law School, u gotta win any case no matter what, so negotiating is like call it a even.

She's solving a problem resorting to violence. She's a pacifist... it's not just killing, violence in itself is a big no.

[Blaznak]

Missing a word here:

"May the gods of forgive me." Third to last panel, Celia. I think.

Maybe we should be reading it "May the Gods of For give me..." Then we could have For-ites running around and a whole new subplot and...
Oh wait, no, I think you are right. Its probably a typo.
Later!

[silvadel]

Trying to gague in my mind what Haley's reaction will be when she finds out she has to start sending large sums of income to greysky city. Especially since Celia isnt in the know of everything -- and neither probably is Hank.

I mean if Celia were to put up Haley's fathers' release as part of the deal based on what she overheard outside the door -- would Hank even know just how many zeros they were talking about?

[Alaska Fan]

Celia is violating the rules for lawyers in a couple of ways.

First, she is using extortion: negotiate with me or I will fry you. And negotiate with me or I'll let Belkar get you (remember she has watched Belkar). Extortion is unlawful.

Second, she is negotiating with thieves. That's illegal and unethical.

Third, she is planning on negotiating Haley back into the Thieves' Guild, making her officially a thief again.

And a fourth, perhaps more remote possibility, is that she is simply stalling until Belkar and Haley whack Bozzok, in which case she is negotiating in bad faith, also unethical.

I think the missing word might be "gods of law" or "gods of lawyers."

Finally, remember lawyers carry a lot of punch in OOTS. They've saved Varsuuvius (from the Dark Elf) and Roy (from the Mindflayer).

[Faramir]

Celia, not an adventurer - even in the midst of the bloody retirement party for much of this thieves' guild, she finds a third way beyond kill or be killed. *Very* nice twist there, Giant.


Yes, a fighter thinks "kill or be killed". A lawyer thinks "bill or be billed" :).


Legal pad, lol, great line.

[Doug Lampert]

On the available evidence, he is a snap to win. There are a wall of missile weapons, and Celia is unlikely to have good AC [12?] or HP [10?]. We can improve that a little, but she is a non-combatant, vigorously so.
She can cast lightning bolt and other spells as a sorcerer of at least 6 levels. So she's not all that non-combatant.

She's got at least 6HD. Those are presumably Fey HD so with 12 Con she would average at least 27 HP not the 10 you give her. And we can improve that quite a lot rather easily.

If she's elite with 14 Con and 7 HD (all of which would be quite consistent with the comic, she can carry Roy or Haley with reasonable ease so her strength is certainly consistent with Elite abilities) then her average is 41 HP.

Slyphs (even medium sized ones) presumably have high Dex and 6HD monsters/races tend to have natural armor, she's almost certainly got more than the 12 AC you give her without taking a single piece of equipment or spell to assist it. And casting as a level 6 sorcerer she can have quite a few spells to assist it. Before you claim she wouldn't have Shield or Mage armor because those are "combat spells" I have a pair of words for you:

Lightning Bolt.

She's not such a non-combatant as to not be able to cast combat spells, it's irrational to assume she's such a pacifist that she won't take Mage Armor while simultaneously observing that she did take Lightning Bolt.

[nybbler]

Celia has lightning as a spell-like ability, not an actual spell. Everyone of Celia's race can shoot electricity out of his or her fingers.

And she isn't a perfectly consistent pacifist. So what? Few pacifists are. Celia has an aversion to violence, but to her, a little zapping is pretty minor violence, probably akin to a slap, and easy to rationalize.

[Zienth]

Celia is violating the rules for lawyers in a couple of ways.

First, she is using extortion: negotiate with me or I will fry you. And negotiate with me or I'll let Belkar get you (remember she has watched Belkar). Extortion is unlawful.


Extortion is such an ugly word. We prefer "negotiating from a position of strength."

[ickus]

Awesome. Except one thing: "May the gods of forgive me..."

The gods of what? The gods of good grammar? ;)

[David Argall]

She can cast lightning bolt and other spells as a sorcerer of at least 6 levels. So she's not all that non-combatant.
Now it is rather obvious that our writer is not copying from MM2 word for word, but that is still our default text to work with. A sylph is CR5, and we have no reason to deem Celia above average in her combat ability. And she is in a CR10+ situation. So she is a nuisance, not a threat, to Hank and friends.


She's got at least 6HD. Those are presumably Fey HD so with 12 Con she would average at least 27 HP not the 10 you give her.
The text is 3HD and 10 hp. That she can cast like a 6th level does not mean she has any given level of HD. That is a natural ability, which can mean a 1st level may cast as if level 12 or higher.
Now Celia fought the butterscotch pudding golem, and so may have gained a level or two, but we are still looking at 20 hp as a high estimate.


If she's elite with 14 Con
The official stat is 8, which is how they get 10 hp. The comic is also consistent with the idea of Celia being slender and delicate, and having a low con.


she can carry Roy or Haley with reasonable ease so her strength is certainly consistent with Elite abilities)
The comic is rather obviously paying no attention to carrying capacity, at least for fliers. Sabine has no problem carrying Nale and Thog for some very large number of miles, a feat that should mean she is stronger than Thog. So we can't assume that Celia has above average strength from it.



Slyphs (even medium sized ones) presumably have high Dex and 6HD monsters/races tend to have natural armor, she's almost certainly got more than the 12 AC you give her
The text gives her a 13 Dex, and no natural armor at all. So a medium size one should be 11.


without taking a single piece of equipment or spell to assist it.
Celia was summonsed out of her bed, meaning she likely has no equipment, and Haley was talking about being broke in Azure City, which means she has a limited amount to loan. And as a law student, Celia would have big expenses and little interest in armor against an attack she does not expect to suffer [Now a headband of intellect...] and so we can't improve her AC much by equipment.


And casting as a level 6 sorcerer she can have quite a few spells to assist it. Before you claim she wouldn't have Shield or Mage armor because those are "combat spells"
She's not such a non-combatant as to not be able to cast combat spells, it's irrational to assume she's such a pacifist that she won't take Mage Armor while simultaneously observing that she did take Lightning Bolt.
It is not in text, but our strip sylph seems to have lightning bolt and other electric abilities as a natural ability, unrelated to her desire to use them. Her spells would presumably be selected according to her [non-violent] needs.
But even if we give her some defensive spells, they are minute a level for the most part, = 6 minutes. That means there is a substantial chance they have already run out, or have not been cast. We are still hard put to give her much of an AC.

So we match her against Hank, who would be about +15/+10, or if he has rapid shot, +13, +13, +8, for maybe 8 points a hit. We put her AC at a generous 20, and give her 50 hp and she is going to last 5-6 rounds, during which time Hank would feel the dice were against him if he failed more than once. So he has taken 21 hp out of his larger total and wins, barely breaking a sweat, before we even add in Yor or the 8th level rogue.

[Doug Lampert]

Now it is rather obvious that our writer is not copying from MM2 word for word, but that is still our default text to work with. A sylph is CR5, and we have no reason to deem Celia above average in her combat ability. And she is in a CR10+ situation. So she is a nuisance, not a threat, to Hank and friends.

The highest level we have any reason to give any of the Rogues individually is 8. Yor doesn't have Evasion, and none of them have improved evasion.

If Hank and Company were an adventuring party then they'd all be eligable for XP from Celia, and they're not in great shape to fight her (once she's flying they can't flank at all and they are two rogues and a power attack based fighter).


The text is 3HD and 10 hp. That she can cast like a 6th level does not mean she has any given level of HD. That is a natural ability, which can mean a 1st level may cast as if level 12 or higher.

She casts as a sorcerer of her HD.


It is not in text, but our strip sylph seems to have lightning bolt and other electric abilities as a natural ability, unrelated to her desire to use them. Her spells would presumably be selected according to her [non-violent] needs.

Haley assumes that the lightning is as a sorcerer and there is ZERO evidence otherwise. You are making **** up and assuming it to be true when there's a perfectly good way for her to do something. To wit, she's advanced with elite abilities as you would EXPECT of an npc of her sort traveling with an adventuring party.

This is a world which WORKS according to D&D conventions. Crystal levels whenever Haley does to remain an appropriate rival. NPC allies who accompany the party will similarly be at most only a 4-5 CR below the APL because she's not there as a pure anchor but rather as an occasionally useful character and her CR will be appropriate to her role.

We SEE her doing stuff consistent with a CR appropriate to her role, repeatedly, and in D&D land you simply don't get big blast powers without enough HP or other abilities to justify your CR. She has Lightning Bolt, she has HP appropriate to lightning bolt.

[courtjester]

Another great comic!

I haven't read all of the comments, but it's pretty clear that what Celia is doing is malpractice. A lawyer cannot represent someone without their authority. Even IF Haley was a client for some activities, she must give permission for Celia to represent her in this capacity.

(let's not get into the details that a law student cannot practice law without a license - under the supervision of an attorney sure, but not otherwise - but we let this slide at the trial because they were great comics.)

Unless Haley gave her permission, Celia cannot bind Haley to the contract or even negotiate on her behalf. So, it's malpractice in representing Celia and fraud on the thieves (who are being intentionally misled to believe that Celia has authority that she does not). Of course, a lifelong contract to the thieve's guild for doing illegal acts is illegal anyway, so the contract cannot be found to be binding in any event (under LAWFUL authority, of course!- under a chaotic authority.. well, who cares about contracts when you're a chaotic judge?)

Malpractice, fraud, and misrepresentation in an illegal contract will not look good on a resume. Celia's only hope in getting or keeping her law license is that mitigating circumstances will ameliorate her misdeeds - coercion in the face of serious bodily harm or death to her or her friend.

- let's all take this too seriously!
- I'm off to write an amicus brief on Celia's behalf to protest my disgust!

[SPoD]

Haley assumes that the lightning is as a sorcerer and there is ZERO evidence otherwise. You are making **** up and assuming it to be true when there's a perfectly good way for her to do something. To wit, she's advanced with elite abilities as you would EXPECT of an npc of her sort traveling with an adventuring party.

This is a world which WORKS according to D&D conventions. Crystal levels whenever Haley does to remain an appropriate rival. NPC allies who accompany the party will similarly be at most only a 4-5 CR below the APL because she's not there as a pure anchor but rather as an occasionally useful character and her CR will be appropriate to her role.

We SEE her doing stuff consistent with a CR appropriate to her role, repeatedly, and in D&D land you simply don't get big blast powers without enough HP or other abilities to justify your CR. She has Lightning Bolt, she has HP appropriate to lightning bolt.

Celia does have some sorcerer spells, but she does not have Lightning Bolt as one of them. Here are 6 reasons we can see:

1.) She never has the squiggly "spellcasting effect" around her hands when her lightning appears; she DOES have it for every other spell she has cast. Note also that when Vaarsuvius casts the Lightning Bolt spell, we DO have a pink squiggly around his/her hands. This is consistent every time she uses lightning, implying that it is an intentional distinction between her and V.
2.) She does not say, "Lightning Bolt!" or any other spell name when using it, not even once.
3.) She can use lightning even when being grappled, something she could not do with a spell.
4.) Yes, you could say she has Still Spell for the grappling and Silent Spell for the lack of words, but then she is busting out a 5th level spell slot every time she uses lightning, making her a 10th level sorcerer...and she uses lightning several times during the scene at Grubwiggler's. If she was a 10th+ level sorcerer, she would be far more powerful than she is.
5.) She is capable of using just a tiny bit of lightning when she wants to; spells don't work like that.
6.) She is under the impression that everyone in the world can shoot lightning if they want to. That is painfully inconsistent with her having needed to learn a spell in order to shoot lightning.

Rich's world does not work on D&D conventions, it works on Narrative conventions; the fact that he made Celia Medium-sized is proof enough of that. Celia being a pacifist who is born with the ability to shoot a billion-watt lightning bolt is a case of dramatic irony, and thus makes perfect sense in OOTS-world.

[David Argall]

The highest level we have any reason to give any of the Rogues individually is 8. Yor doesn't have Evasion, and none of them have improved evasion.
No, 8th is the level of the lesser rogue. Hank is his boss, and much higher, likely above 12th. And we have not bothered to give the rogues improved evasion.


If Hank and Company were an adventuring party then they'd all be eligable for XP from Celia, and they're not in great shape to fight her (once she's flying they can't flank at all and they are two rogues and a power attack based fighter).
Yawn. They don't need it. We did the math. They archery her down nice and easy.



She casts as a sorcerer of her HD.
That is what Haley says in 530. However Haley's knowledge of Celia's abilities probably rivals Celia's knowledge of human abilities.


Haley assumes that the lightning is as a sorcerer and there is ZERO evidence otherwise.
See 529 when Celia says "...not even lightning?" That is the comment of someone talking about natural abilities, not spells that vary from individual to individual.



she's advanced with elite abilities as you would EXPECT of an npc of her sort traveling with an adventuring party.
Her sort appears to be the civilian who looks like a complete fool when adventuring.


This is a world which WORKS according to D&D conventions. Crystal levels whenever Haley does to remain an appropriate rival. NPC allies who accompany the party will similarly be at most only a 4-5 CR below the APL
If we were expecting Celia to make a combat contribution, that would be the case. But she does not have that function. She is there as the girlfriend, who can have 1hp even when the hero has 20 HD.


because she's not there as a pure anchor but rather as an occasionally useful character and her CR will be appropriate to her role.
And her role is non-combat.


We SEE her doing stuff consistent with a CR appropriate to her role, repeatedly,
What? In the dungeon, she fails a save and casts a non-fatal Lightning bolt. In Azure City, she "wins" a fixed case. On the trip North, she casts a low level disguise spell and helps to an unknown extent in one fight. In Greysky, she has tossed around some lightning, but has not done major damage. For combat purposes, she has pretty much been a passenger.



and in D&D land you simply don't get big blast powers without enough HP or other abilities to justify your CR.
I read MM1. Aboleth-8HD-casts as 16th level... Angel, Plantar-14HD-casts as 17th level... Angel, Solar-22HD-casts as 20th level... Lantern, Archon-1HD-casts as 3rd level... Demon, Quasit-3hd-casts at 6th level... Succubus-6HD-casts as 12th level...
So no, there is no such solid rule. A sylph is just one of many that casts at a different level than their HD.

[Morgan Wick]

I think the missing word might be "gods of law" or "gods of lawyers."

This is why I think Rich hasn't fixed it yet... he originally intended it to be something like "gods of lawyers" but realized it would ruin the punchline, and never came up with an alternative. Something like "Lawful Gods" would work, since Celia's (alleged) pacifism follows from her Lawful nature, but leaving out the "of" would probably work best.

[eras10]

Something I haven't heard anyone mention or pick up on yet is that some form of settlement / co-optation (co-opting?) / assimilation with the Greysky City Thieves Guild - reduced in headcount and w/a leadership change - would make the task of getting Roy's body back vastly easier.

Think about it. Haley's earlier plan was highly marginal. Travel a very long distance to purchase unknown mercenaries who would then travel all the way back and sneak into a town controlled by hostile forces and then fight one's way past a dozen flesh golems and steal back a hostile bone golem? That was a tall flipping order.

With the thieves guild cooperating, it opens up possibilities of getting Roy back through a combination of purchase and trickery.

[Fredthefighter]

That was pure Awesomesauce on the epic waffles of my day.
Thankyou

[DigoDragon]

I was actually hoping that she would just kill them and get it over with... Does that make me a bad person?

Naw, just a blood-thirsty one :smallwink:
Though I've done Jury duty on a case involving death so after all the proceedings and arguments a few of them might feel like they died.

[David Argall]

some form of settlement / co-optation (co-opting?) / assimilation with the Greysky City Thieves Guild - reduced in headcount and w/a leadership change - would make the task of getting Roy's body back vastly easier.

Haley's earlier plan was highly marginal. Travel a very long distance to purchase unknown mercenaries who would then travel all the way back and sneak into a town controlled by hostile forces and then fight one's way past a dozen flesh golems and steal back a hostile bone golem? That was a tall flipping order.

Not really. Go back to 357, Origin, and SoD. They all have it that one can find a dozen or so adventurers at any tavern. Origin has it that it can be a little work getting ones to agree to go, but it is still a routine task that would not take more than a day or two. With a good sob story about rescuing a boyfriend and a fair amount of gold, it's a done deal. Most of the time, the adventurer doesn't know what he is going to face, beyond hostile and deadly. Give any of my characters of 5th level and up time to buy a scarab of Golembane, and we're off.


With the thieves guild cooperating, it opens up possibilities of getting Roy back through a combination of purchase and trickery.
The main problem remains. Just what does Celia have to offer? Any such idea is going to set the guild back at least 100,000 gold, in gold, ill-will, etc. The idea that Celia-Haley-Belkar can win the battle should be almost laughable in the eyes of Hank.

[Niknokitueu]

An ace comic, in just two words...

"... frequent flyer"
Heh heh.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Tobimaro]

Well, I really did not expect that ending. But, then again, Celia is not really the adventuring type. So, she is taking advantage of her profession: Lawyer skill to not only get herself out of danger, but to help out Haley. Just hope that Hank does not have a higher score in that area.

[Angband]

So I don't know if anyone noticed, but you can see the dates on the cups in a few of the panels.

In the last and next to last panel, the leftmost gold cup reads "1159".
In panel 5, between Roy and the rogue, the silver cup reads "1160".
In the next to last panel, the last 2 numbers on the gold cup to the right of the silver cup read "61".

[Nevitan]

So I don't know if anyone noticed, but you can see the dates on the cups in a few of the panels.

In the last and next to last panel, the leftmost gold cup reads "1159".
In panel 5, between Roy and the rogue, the silver cup reads "1160".
In the next to last panel, the last 2 numbers on the gold cup to the right of the silver cup read "61".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html
this one shows the three left most cups as 1161, 1162, and 1163.

[qwerty]

belker is so cool

[DrivinAllNight]

Ok, Celia is either going to become a real good character, or a really really bad one, i am praying to all the oots gods that she becomes a really good character.

[Wikkin]

As for Celia being Medium-sized, so were the other two elemental guardians in Dorukan's Dungeon. For that matter, so were Celia's boyfriend and the dryad he was with when she explained why she'd gone back to law school...

So is :redcloak:

[Greep]

hmmm... upon thinking about it, this comic's ending actually does make sense.
At first, I was thinking this would be rather stupid, because honestly hank should just kill her anyways, it's not like a piece of paper is going to be honored by someone like bozzok or crystal.. but...

If celia worked some way into giving hank guild leadership through this, it would give reason for hank and his gang to turn on bozzok as well (lesser rogues might actually follow the "piece of paper" if hank is higher level). With haley, belkar, celia, hank, and the other rogues against bozzok, it's clear what will happen

[Taekwondodo]

It's nice seeing Celia in lawyer mode (I have to admit I forgot she had trained as a lawyer after she left the dungeon). Go Celia!!

[Morchaint]

Maybe we should be reading it "May the Gods of For give me..." Then we could have For-ites running around and a whole new subplot and...
Oh wait, no, I think you are right. Its probably a typo.
Later!

LOL

as if we didnt have enough cults and groups and ppl running around...

can I borrow it and become a For~ite. I think that the Gods of For are golf deities. or maybe they guided Abraham Lincoln For score and seven years ago...

:D LOL

[chiasaur11]

LOL

as if we didnt have enough cults and groups and ppl running around...

can I borrow it and become a For~ite. I think that the Gods of For are golf deities. or maybe they guided Abraham Lincoln For score and seven years ago...

:D LOL

Haven't you read your Wodehouse?

Gowf is the relevant deity for that sport.

[David Argall]

it's not like a piece of paper is going to be honored by someone like bozzok or crystal..

Bozzak's business model [Give me money or I kill you] is based on his word being reliable. You pay because you feel reasonably sure Bozzak won't kill you if you do, and he will be keeping other thieves away too. So he will, within reason, honor that piece of paper.
Now as far as we know, neither Hank nor Celia has the authority to sign anything. But assuming a valid deal is actually reached Bozzak corners Haley and is about to run her thru again when Celia and Hank burst on the scene and get him to sign. Bozzak will honor it. [Of course even the most honest businessman may look for angles, so Haley had best watch it, but expecting Bozzak to abide by the deal is not hopeless.]

[Nevitan]

I just reread the comic and I was wondering when Hank learned about Pete's death?:smallconfused:

He talks about the stash like Pete is dead and that it is going to be sold for the guild.

[Zienth]

I just reread the comic and I was wondering when Hank learned about Pete's death?:smallconfused:

He talks about the stash like Pete is dead and that it is going to be sold for the guild.

Well, the door to Pete's den is right next to the front door, so anyone going into the den is likely to see Pete's smashed pumpkin. Haley and Celia saw it while on their way to the den in 614 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html). He's kinda hard to miss, actually.

Zienth

[Nevitan]

Well, the door to Pete's den is right next to the front door, so anyone going into the den is likely to see Pete's smashed pumpkin. Haley and Celia saw it while on their way to the den in 614 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html). He's kinda hard to miss, actually.

Zienth

Thanks for clearing that up, I was worried Hank was using OOC knowledge :smalltongue:.

[Greep]

Bozzak's business model [Give me money or I kill you] is based on his word being reliable. You pay because you feel reasonably sure Bozzak won't kill you if you do, and he will be keeping other thieves away too. So he will, within reason, honor that piece of paper.
Now as far as we know, neither Hank nor Celia has the authority to sign anything. But assuming a valid deal is actually reached Bozzak corners Haley and is about to run her thru again when Celia and Hank burst on the scene and get him to sign. Bozzak will honor it. [Of course even the most honest businessman may look for angles, so Haley had best watch it, but expecting Bozzak to abide by the deal is not hopeless.]

That is a good point but "Give me money or I kill you" is not the type of thing that really needs 100% precedent. I mean if it's known that 10% of the time you DO kill a person anyways, I think anyone who doesn't want to die would give money. Not to mention, this would be an in-guild affair, and I doubt other people would care.

[Fighteer]

Actually, at this point Bozzok would need quite a bit of convincing to let Haley back in the guild. She's embarrassed him at least twice: once by leaving in the first place (against his policy), again by coming back and stealing from someone with a protection contract, and now he's got a pile of dead rogues to avenge. His reputation, and likely his continued leadership of the guild, are at stake here. Any result that doesn't leave Haley either dead or permanently unable to interfere with him ever again would be a huge loss of face.

So I don't think he'll be persuaded to relent by Hank coming in waving a piece of paper for him to sign. He's going to have to be either defeated in combat or faced with the defection of his lieutenants, and either event would severely weaken his leadership position. That or they can simply kill him, which would solve the problem handily, albeit a the cost of a potential recurring villain.

[pendell]

On the available evidence, he is a snap to win. There are a wall of missile weapons, and Celia is unlikely to have good AC [12?] or HP [10?]. We can improve that a little, but she is a non-combatant, vigorously so. She just should not have much in either category.
And the rogues have evasion, and very good reflex saves. Approximately, Celia would have to shoot 20 lightning bolts at Hank to have a hope of dropping him. Hank will in the meantime hit her with about 60 arrows, and
may need only 1 hit to drop her.
Now Celia may be able to escape. She blasts the door and flees. I'd rate her chance at less than 50-50, but that is still way better than combat.


Hello, Dave. Didn't see this for awhile.

"Win" doesn't have to mean "kill everyone". All "win" has to mean is "exact a higher cost to defeat than the opponent is willing to pay".

Certainly Roy thinks Celia has a chance. I trust his tactical evaluation.

Regardless, the show of force was sufficient to convince our halfling rogue that he was better off negotiating than he was fighting. For one thing, the fighter is toast, since he has no evasion capability.

Another thing is we don't know what else Celia has in her arsenal besides lightning. For example, Protection from Arrows. More importantly, neither does Hank. None of the rogues seems to have a lot of ranks in knowledge (Outer Planes).

Whatever the reason, Hank seems to have seen fighting as a losing proposition versus what he can hope to gain through negotiation. Especially since, win or no win, he would probably take casualties. So I would say Celia's show of force achieved precisely the effect she was aiming for -- to force her opponents to the negotiating table.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I don't think Bozzok will be in a position to refuse a renegociated contract... I think he and Belkar are going to go at it, and Bozzok is going to come in second...

:smallamused:

[Greep]

also, why DID bozzok just abandon crystal? is he stupid or just THAT pissed off at haley? Together the two should have easily killed belkar, and then, if they weren't totally wrecked from belkar which is easily possible, make a risk and go for haley. I'm sure bozzok doesn't care about crystal, but I'm sure bozzok cares about bozzok. And despite his being a half-orc melee class, it doesn't sound like int was his dump stat, so this whole situation is weird.

[Scarlet Knight]

Yes, a fighter thinks "kill or be killed". A lawyer thinks "bill or be billed" .


:smallbiggrin:

By the way, in the battle between lawyers & thieves, how do they tell each other apart? :smallconfused:
(The previous statement was intended as humor and in no way meant to disparage our fine readers who are in either aforementioned professions...)

[Scarlet Knight]

it's not like a piece of paper is going to be honored by someone like bozzok or crystal.. but...

"more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules"...

[David Argall]

Certainly Roy thinks Celia has a chance. I trust his tactical evaluation.
I'd think more that Roy doesn't think Celia has a chance otherwise. You don't want to discourage her from taking her only hope by mentioning it is a long shot.


Regardless, the show of force was sufficient to convince our halfling rogue that he was better off negotiating than he was fighting. For one thing, the fighter is toast, since he has no evasion capability.
Assuming he has no missile weapon. But he has maybe 100 hp and 6d6=21 hp-save for half and he will save about half the time. So he can last maybe 7 rounds and we have no reason to think Celia can.
Hank shouldn't be seriously impressed by Celia's combat abilities [This is just 1 low level, not well prepared for battle, vs 3 mid-high who were well prepared. Celia shouldn't have a chance.], but given Haley is causing all this fuss, she might be a useful addition to the guild. So I'd think Hank wants to explore this option before he dices Celia.

[Arcadius798]

y'see, this is why lawyers are teased.

[dps]

also, why DID bozzok just abandon crystal? is he stupid or just THAT pissed off at haley? Together the two should have easily killed belkar, and then, if they weren't totally wrecked from belkar which is easily possible, make a risk and go for haley. I'm sure bozzok doesn't care about crystal, but I'm sure bozzok cares about bozzok. And despite his being a half-orc melee class, it doesn't sound like int was his dump stat, so this whole situation is weird.

He has no idea who or what Belkar is. He does now have a score to settle with Belkar because Belkar has interferred in what Bozzok considers Guild Business, but there's no way that he can know just how dangerous Belkar is, so he would see no reason not to take care of Haley first.

[holywhippet]

also, why DID bozzok just abandon crystal? is he stupid or just THAT pissed off at haley? Together the two should have easily killed belkar, and then, if they weren't totally wrecked from belkar which is easily possible, make a risk and go for haley. I'm sure bozzok doesn't care about crystal, but I'm sure bozzok cares about bozzok. And despite his being a half-orc melee class, it doesn't sound like int was his dump stat, so this whole situation is weird.

I don't know about them easily killing Belkar, if at all. Odds are Belkar has the advantage in HP, BAB and AC. As rogues all they have is sneak attack damage - which might not work depending on how many levels of barbarian Belkar has taken. It looked liked he was fighting using the full defensive option which helps his AC even more. If Bozzok didn't chase after Haley she would have had time to heal up, find a weapon and rejoin the fight.

[Brasswatchman]

New comic is up.

Sorry if this has been brought up before - but in panel 8, the gods of what? Small typo, no worries, just thought I'd point it out for the print edition.

[OOTS_Supporter]

Go Celia! She can help Haley and Belkar and the CLeric! :celia: needs to be made.

[David Argall]

I don't know about them easily killing Belkar, if at all. Odds are Belkar has the advantage in HP, BAB and AC. As rogues all they have is sneak attack damage
And they have a whole lot of that. Those d6s can carve something like 175 hp damage in a round, and Belkar doesn't have 175 hp. That's before we consider weapons, str, bonus to damage.... Two flanking rogues are terrible things. I've watched my barbarian get beat up that way a few times.



- which might not work depending on how many levels of barbarian Belkar has taken.
Belkar has a sprinkling of barbarian, And he needs at least 10 to have any chance to be immune to flanking from the high level rogues. We know he has at least 9 levels of Ranger, meaning he can't have those 10 levels of barbarian. He may have only one.


It looked liked he was fighting using the full defensive option which helps his AC even more.
When you fight using full defense, you don't do any damage. You lose.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Argh. Google Chrome is currently unable to load the Playground. :smallfrown:

This was totally worth booting IE back up for.

[Greep]

so it's quickly turning into bozzok getting cornedered by more and more allies... I wonder if we're going to have a diabolus ex machina to mess things up :D

[justinruelz]

I want her as my lawyer!

Law book.
yes sir.

[TheBST]

So... is Celia actually trying to negotiate with Hank or is she challenging him to some kind of legalese throw down (with Hank immediately requesting a legal pad as a kind of courtroom dueling weapon)? Sure the next comic'll clarify for slow people like myself.




Who are the ones that we left in charge?
Killers, thieves and lawyers!
-Tom Waits; God's Away on Business

[Grey Watcher]

So... is Celia actually trying to negotiate with Hank or is she challenging him to some kind of legalese throw down (with Hank immediately requesting a legal pad as a kind of courtroom dueling weapon)? Sure the next comic'll clarify for slow people like myself.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction, here.

[Zienth]

Argh. Google Chrome is currently unable to load the Playground. :smallfrown:

This was totally worth booting IE back up for.

I haven't had any problems using Chrome.

[OOTS_Supporter]

I think people are underestimating Belkar.

He won mostly alone in a room full of theives. So you are arguin he can't take another wave of them? Even if he loses the upper hand, Haley is there, and, thanks to Belkar's fake sincerity and saving her, could possibly save him.

They could also fight Bozzok alone, as 2 vs. 1 makes it a lot easier.

And since when does the Giant follow D&D rules? If he did, wouldn't Belkar be did by now?

[factotum]

I think people are underestimating Belkar.

He won mostly alone in a room full of theives. So you are arguin he can't take another wave of them?

Those thieves were almost certainly all fairly low level. There's a difference between a roomful of Rogues who are all below level 10, and a pair of rogues who are respectively at least level 13 and 17...

[SteveMB]

Those thieves were almost certainly all fairly low level. There's a difference between a roomful of Rogues who are all below level 10, and a pair of rogues who are respectively at least level 13 and 17...

Yeah -- Belkar will get some decent XP from the latter. :smallbiggrin:

[OOTS_Supporter]

Yeah -- Belkar will get some decent XP from the latter. :smallbiggrin:

What he said.

:belkar: What kind of sexy shoeless god of war would he be if he wasn't able to beat them?

He didn't waste too much of his energy fighting the rouges in the first room, at least it didn't look that way. The Cleric of Loki I think overeacted on the healing.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I haven't had any problems using Chrome.

Clarification:

My Google Chrome is unable to load the Playground, but switching to IE got it up straight away.

[tcrudisi]

The longer we go without an update, the more I wonder what Mr. Burlew has up his sleeve.

My guess is that he brings Christmas into the negotations that are about to take place.

[David Argall]

He has taken holiday breaks most years in the past and may well be doing so now. Tho an official announcement would be nice.

[halo_monger]

He has taken holiday breaks most years in the past and may well be doing so now. Tho an official announcement would be nice.

I agree as well.

[SoC175]

And they have a whole lot of that. Those d6s can carve something like 175 hp damage in a round, and Belkar doesn't have 175 hp. That's before we consider weapons, str, bonus to damage.... Two flanking rogues are terrible things. I've watched my barbarian get beat up that way a few times.
Well, a lvl 20 rogue has 10d6 sneak attack, for an average of 35 damage.

So if the rogue is fighting with two weapon and making a full-attack under the effect of a haste spell and hits with all attacks that's 70d6 points of sneak attack damage (average 245 damage).

However Bozzok is alone. The only chance he has for sneak attack is through feints. With a feint he can either get one sneak attack every second round (at the cost of sacrificing all attacks for one round) or a sneak attack every round with the improved feint feat (at the cost of never being able to make a full-attack)

[OOTS_Supporter]

I think you are all forgetting that the Giant only follows combat rules when he is making a joke about them.

It is a comic based on D&D, not following it's rules WORD FOR WORD.

By your logic, wouldn't Belkar have died already? Wouldn't Xykon be killed by the GHost Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard? Wouldn't HInjo have been killed by the ninjas attacking?

WOuldn't Haley, Belkar, Celia, and the Cleric of Loki be dead because of the outnumbered and underleveled-ness?

And how do we know that the rouges increased in level? Did I miss the evidence?

[Ya Ta Hey!]

Absolutely, OOTS' main consideration has always been "Speed of Plot (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)". If something consitutes a good story or joke, then that's what happens.

Roy dies from falling really far. A few strips later, O-Chul also falls really far and lands headfirst, immediately after a cataclysmic explosion that was enough to displace hundreds of tons of stone went off directly in his face. And then he got dragged through an earthquake and hit the exact same spot on his head again*.

O-Chul got to live so that he could be taken prisoner, show what Xykon and Redcloak are up to, and help flesh out the Monster in the Dark's persona, thus sowing the literary seeds of whatever's going to happen next in Azure city. Roy got to die so that his part of the story could offer a refreshing segue to sunny Celestia whenever Haley and Elan's arcs got too oppressively heavy. The mechanical explanations for these things are, ironically enough, for flavor purposes only.

If Belkar takes a dirtnap, it'll be for the enrichment of the rest of the story and I'm sure it'll be as powerful of a moment as 'Not for Everyone' or simply hilarious, even if the core of the joke is anticlimax. Belkar has always been the strip's highlight for me, and I'm still looking forward to it.

I can't imagine Rich is at his desk, half-colored Inkscape project waiting on the screen while he pushes his mousepad aside every two panels to roll d6's

*Klackity-klacka-takka-thump* (the last one rolled off the table and onto the floor. Probl'y disappeared behind the desk or something)

"Holy buttons, O-Chul is still at -2 HP! Ha! Good thing he took Diehard at level 3 :smallamused:" *backspace-backspace-backspace*

Moral of the story, if you wanna know the outcome of OOTS plots, think like the author would, don't think like the DM.



*Complete aside: head trauma is extremely dangerous--even tripping over your shoelaces has the potential to kill you if you land wrong. Getting knocked out from a concussion is one of the most ubiqutous plot devices there is, but IRL its a sign of brain damage. Charles the Bold was this bloodthirsty duke who was ready to take over a big chunk of central Europe back in the day, and all it took was a bonk on the helmet to change history!

[chiasaur11]

Absolutely, OOTS' main consideration has always been "Speed of Plot (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)". If something consitutes a good story or joke, then that's what happens.

Roy dies from falling really far. A few strips later, O-Chul also falls really far and lands headfirst, immediately after a cataclysmic explosion that was enough to displace hundreds of tons of stone went off directly in his face. And then he got dragged through an earthquake.

O-Chul got to live so that he could be taken prisoner, show what Xykon and Redcloak are up to, and help flesh out the Monster in the Dark's persona, thus sowing the literary seeds of whatever's going to happen next in Azure city. Roy got to die so that his part of the story could offer a refreshing segue to sunny Celestia whenever Haley and Elan's arcs got too oppressively heavy.

I can't imagine Rich is at his desk, half-colored Inkscape project waiting on the screen while he pushes his mousepad aside every two panels to roll d6's

*Klackity-klacka-takka-thump* (the last one rolled off the table and onto the floor. Probl'y disappeared behind the desk or something)

"Holy buttons, O-Chul is still at -2 HP! Good thing he took Diehard at level 3 :smallamused:" *backspace-backspace-backspace*

I thought we all knew O-Chul lived because he's just that awesome.

[Doran_Liadon]

Absolutely, OOTS' main consideration has always been "Speed of Plot (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)". If something consitutes a good story or joke, then that's what happens.

Roy dies from falling really far. A few strips later, O-Chul also falls really far and lands headfirst, immediately after a cataclysmic explosion that was enough to displace hundreds of tons of stone went off directly in his face. And then he got dragged through an earthquake.

O-Chul got to live so that he could be taken prisoner, show what Xykon and Redcloak are up to, and help flesh out the Monster in the Dark's persona, thus sowing the literary seeds of whatever's going to happen next in Azure city. Roy got to die so that his part of the story could offer a refreshing segue to sunny Celestia whenever Haley and Elan's arcs got too oppressively heavy. The mechanical explanations for these things are, ironically enough, for flavor purposes only.

If Belkar takes a dirtnap, it'll be for the enrichment of the rest of the story and I'm sure it'll be as powerful of a moment as 'Not for Everyone' or simply hilarious.

I can't imagine Rich is at his desk, half-colored Inkscape project waiting on the screen while he pushes his mousepad aside every two panels to roll d6's

*Klackity-klacka-takka-thump* (the last one rolled off the table and onto the floor. Probl'y disappeared behind the desk or something)

"Holy buttons, O-Chul is still at -2 HP! Ha! Good thing he took Diehard at level 3 :smallamused:" *backspace-backspace-backspace*

This made me laugh out loud.:smallbiggrin:

[OOTS_Supporter]

I thought we all knew O-Chul lived because he's just that awesome.

We do. It was just an example. How could anyone think that O-chul ISN'T awesome?

Anyway, I think the "Belkar will live at least through this arc or fight" people win this topic.

[Welf]

Moral of the story, if you wanna know the outcome of OOTS plots, think like the author would, don't think like the DM.

ALWAYS think like the DM. Everything else is a free ticket to permadead. Or even worse leads to taking useless feats. This DM just developed from "SCs = rats in my personal labyrinth"" to Mr. Railroadplot.

[Zevox]

We do. It was just an example. How could anyone think that O-chul ISN'T awesome?
Quite easily. As characters go, he thus far strikes me as a rather bland Paladin. How his weird cult emerged on these forums is an utter mystery to me.


ALWAYS think like the DM. Everything else is a free ticket to permadead. Or even worse leads to taking useless feats. This DM just developed from "SCs = rats in my personal labyrinth"" to Mr. Railroadplot.
...except for the problem that there is no DM in the OotS, since they are not actually playing a D&D game, but just living in a world where D&D rules apply in a manner similar to the laws of physics.

Zevox

[Scarlet Knight]

Bland? Maybe at first, but by comic #542, while in the custody of goblin guards, he sweeps one to his death, only to fall into a vat of acid. He then ( while being impaled on the spikes at the bottom) escapes his bonds, fights off a killer shark, climbs out of the tank ,only to get THIS close to smiting :xykon: ! Daily! Meanwhile, in his spare time, begins to teach :mitd: a game all while gently teaching him the lessons of good & evil. He even inspires the population to resist the goblins without trying. I bet if he had hair, it would still be in place!

[OOTS_Supporter]

Bland? Maybe at first, but by comic #542, while in the custody of goblin guards, he sweeps one to his death, only to fall into a vat of acid. He then ( while being impaled on the spikes at the bottom) escapes his bonds, fights off a killer shark, climbs out of the tank ,only to get THIS close to smiting :xykon: ! Daily! Meanwhile, in his spare time, begins to teach :mitd: a game all while gently teaching him the lessons of good & evil. He even inspires the population to resist the goblins without trying. I bet if he had hair, it would still be in place!

Don't forget the Basilik Staring Contest and surviving a cage of rabid wallabies!

O-Chul should have his own smilie.

[Zevox]

Bland? Maybe at first, but by comic #542, while in the custody of goblin guards, he sweeps one to his death, only to fall into a vat of acid. He then ( while being impaled on the spikes at the bottom) escapes his bonds, fights off a killer shark, climbs out of the tank ,only to get THIS close to smiting :xykon: ! Daily! Meanwhile, in his spare time, begins to teach :mitd: a game all while gently teaching him the lessons of good & evil. He even inspires the population to resist the goblins without trying. I bet if he had hair, it would still be in place!
Yes, bland. All that most of what you mentioned displays is physical toughness, which frankly I care nothing about, and which would be pretty standard for a mid-upper level Paladin anyway (they are a meat shield/warrior class, after all). As far as personality goes, he more or less has none outside of what is by default expected of a Paladin. Thus, bland.

Zevox

[Quorothorn]

Yes, bland. All that most of what you mentioned displays is physical toughness, which frankly I care nothing about, and which would be pretty standard for a mid-upper level Paladin anyway (they are a meat shield/warrior class, after all). As far as personality goes, he more or less has none outside of what is by default expected of a Paladin. Thus, bland.

Hey, chicken & orzo is probably in the bland category, but I love it.

That said, O-chul isn't one of my upper-tier favorite characters (I just like him), and the "facts" thing only goes truly well with Stephen Colbert, in my opinion.