Belkar and Vaarsuvius have switched places

[Kranden]

In the last time we have seen V and Belkar in action they have done the opposite of what they would have before.

V worked as a team player because it was logical and the best way to get XP.
He left his team while Belkar realized that its important to at least pretend to get along for your own benefits. V on the other hand did just opposite of what Belkar did with Haley's rival, V killed Hinjo's rival and even threatened to do the same to Elan if he got in his way while Belkar left crystal alive for Haley.

Even if faking Belkar has gained character growth in the eyes of his teammates while Vaarsuvius pretty much told his team to **** off and left. Belkar went back even when he had an opportunity to leave Haley even when he was left to die by her.

[Kokopelli Jones]

Interestingly Belkar could also be taking Roy's place, forming his own little group. If he catches up with the Cleric of Loki, he'd have his cleric. I'm sure Jenny would be his bard, if he asked. He's halfway there, already.

[David Argall]

We know Belkar's character development is fake. Perhaps V's is too.

[JaxGaret]

Perhaps V's is too.

What character development?

[Cpt. Soup]

What character development?

How about character devolvement, we may just see a complete and total breakdown from V! wouldn't that be fun?

[Optimystik]

What character development?

Going from the eye-rolling strategist to full-on Raistlin counts in my book. But V's slide is very, very real.

[Morty]

Perhaps V's is too.

So V is just pretending to break up with rest of the Order and go his separate way and try to reach Haley on her own?

[whatchamacallit]

First off V is a female.

Secondly Belkar and V haven't switched places because Belkar never stormed off in a huff abandoning the order.

[jcsw]

First off V is a female.

HAHAHAHAHA.

[Dairuka]

The problem with logic is that people who are blinded by their emotions and morals tend to see it as evil. Logic does only what is necessary to complete a given task. Like a robot would.

Logic has no feelings, and is not controlled by the abstract morals that vary from society to society. This can only be described as True Neutral, which in my opinion is the scariest of all alignments.

With Chaotic Evil characters, you've come to expect them to sneak up on you while you sleep with a blade in their hands. With True Neutral characters who've expressed no tendencies towards any of the four alignment spectrums - you'll never see the shank coming until you already have a dagger in your spine.

I see Chaotic Evil characters as Psychopaths... while I consider True Neutral characters to be Sociopaths.

V is a sociopath, and is becoming over-emotional due to being separated from Haley for so long. Trust me when I say this... a sociopath driven by emotion is a scary force indeed, there is no telling what they'll do.

Belkar fits the personality of a Psychopath much better, since he simply disregards the idea that other beings have the right to live... only now, hes a psychopath with self-preservation through co-operation as his mission. Psychopaths are easier to control, so long as there is something for them to kill... thankfully in a Dungeons and Dragons environment, there is plenty for them to kill.

[tribble]

The problem with logic is that people who are blinded by their emotions and morals tend to see it as evil. Logic does only what is necessary to complete a given task. Like a robot would.

Logic has no feelings, and is not controlled by the abstract morals that vary from society to society. This can only be described as True Neutral, which in my opinion is the scariest of all alignments.

With Chaotic Evil characters, you've come to expect them to sneak up on you while you sleep with a blade in their hands. With True Neutral characters who've expressed no tendencies towards any of the four alignment spectrums - you'll never see the shank coming until you already have a dagger in your spine.

I see Chaotic Evil characters as Psychopaths... while I consider True Neutral characters to be Sociopaths.

V is a sociopath, and is becoming over-emotional due to being separated from Haley for so long. Trust me when I say this... a sociopath driven by emotion is a scary force indeed, there is no telling what they'll do.

Belkar fits the personality of a Psychopath much better, since he simply disregards the idea that other beings have the right to live... only now, hes a psychopath with self-preservation through co-operation as his mission. Kind of like the show Dexter's main character. Psychopaths are easier to control, so long as there is something for them to kill... thankfully in a Dungeons and Dragons environment, there is plenty for them to kill.

Um...I happen to be offended by that. true neutral isn't sociopathic. good/evil neutrality is just not particularly altruistic, and not particularly horrible to other people. chaos/law neutrality is just not leaning towards regulations or a lack thereof. I'm offended by that because I happen to be TN. and yet, I still manage to have people and things I care about. alignments aren't planets of hats, and sociopathy wouldn't be the TN hat even if they were.
In short, if you see logic as unpredictable, then you fail logic forever. as long as you start from the same premises, logic will take you to the same place. thats pretty bloody predictable.

[B.I.T.T.]

Well, speaking of logic, what V is doing is based on his or her own logical conclusions.

a) He or she is attempting to reach a goal (to contact Haley) and feels that this goal is being intruded upon by the people around him, particularly Durkon and Elan.

b) The last time he or she spoke with Elan, he or she was lead to believe that Elan was going to tell Hinjo exactly what became of Kubota, thus his goals would be further interupted by having legal troubles.

c) He or she knows that should he or she be able to contact Haley, then it should be fairly easy to get in touch with Elan and/or Durkon to arrange a rendezvous should that even be necessary.

Now his or her actions may be fueled by emotions and lack of sleep, but there are logical conclusions being made by our elven buddy.

[JaxGaret]

The problem with logic is that people who are blinded by their emotions and morals tend to see it as evil. Logic does only what is necessary to complete a given task. Like a robot would.

Logic has no feelings, and is not controlled by the abstract morals that vary from society to society. This can only be described as True Neutral, which in my opinion is the scariest of all alignments.

With Chaotic Evil characters, you've come to expect them to sneak up on you while you sleep with a blade in their hands. With True Neutral characters who've expressed no tendencies towards any of the four alignment spectrums - you'll never see the shank coming until you already have a dagger in your spine.

I see Chaotic Evil characters as Psychopaths... while I consider True Neutral characters to be Sociopaths.

V is a sociopath, and is becoming over-emotional due to being separated from Haley for so long. Trust me when I say this... a sociopath driven by emotion is a scary force indeed, there is no telling what they'll do.

Belkar fits the personality of a Psychopath much better, since he simply disregards the idea that other beings have the right to live... only now, hes a psychopath with self-preservation through co-operation as his mission. Psychopaths are easier to control, so long as there is something for them to kill... thankfully in a Dungeons and Dragons environment, there is plenty for them to kill.

A person completely driven by logic is Lawful Neutral, not True Neutral.

I'm not even going to delve into the dozen other things that are wrong with what you said here.

[Ryuka Tana]

"Take note, that only the truly neutral (regardless of how you might categorize yourself) come close to being able to determine alignments effectively. Not to mention, that's only true if you define good and evil."

"I believe good is defined by the desire to be 'selfless' (though, if your DESIRE is to be selfless, then it isn't selfless, but I won't delve into that), and evil is defined by selfishness. Neutrality (on the good and evil scale) is self-serving, NOT selfish, neutral beings do what they feel is best for themselves, while considering others. Good does what is best for others, sometimes irregardless of themselves; and evil does what they feel is best for themselves, irregardless of the consequences to others."

"On the other scale, lawful beings follow some kind of outside code, and refuse to stray from it; while chaotic beings actively ignore some form of law and refuse to follow it. Neutrality (on the lawful and chaotic scale) does what it feels is right, regardless of law, but not actively disregarding it either."

"Belkar is borderline Chaotic-Neutral/Chaotic-Evil, being selfish, but willing to consider other people so long as it serves himself. He has also proven that he will oppose law just for fun."

"Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, could border between Chaotic-Good and True Neutral, and (s)he has been the least consistent member of the group in regards to alignment. V does consider other people (thinking about what is best for the Order or the world as a whole), but has done some questionable things in that regard. Either way, V does not care much about the lawful side of things, and only follows it if it is for the best for him/her."

[JaxGaret]

Belkar is CE. V is LN, and some say he is sliding towards LE.

There's really no arguments to be made otherwise.

[fangthane]

I tell you what, let's not get into the discussion of LN versus N and just acknowledge that you were wrong about the lack of argument to be made, hmm? :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

If we want to turn this into an alignment debate, I back up the idea that V is CN or possibly CG.
But aside from that and back on topic, while on the surface it may seem that V and Belkar have swithced, because now Belkar does team play and V goes away, in their deep they're still the same, V choosing an apparently logical step to reunite the team, while Belkar caring only about his wellfare and fun.
They just discovered new ways to achieve their goals, and curiously that new ways brought them to each adopt a behaviour more proper to the other.

[Zevox]

Belkar is CE. V is LN, and some say he is sliding towards LE.

There's really no arguments to be made otherwise.
Er, V is very arguable. Really, there have people who have seriously argued every single one of the nine alignments for her, and only a few of them were obviously founded on poor support. Her alignment is nearly as ambiguous as her sex.

You're right about Belkar though. He's CE through and through. Really, personality wise he's basically Xykon minus the large-scale ambitions.

Zevox

[Kranden]

this is not a thread about V or Belkars alignement or V's Gender so keep on topic.

This is about the fact that V and Belkar have done the exact opposite of what they would have done and their own character grown and ungrowth.

[ericgrau]

Oh come on, Belkar is lawful good, V is female and lawful neutral. :smalltongue: (I completely made that up off the top of my head, don't flame me). EDIT: arrgh, and the debate goes on. Must resist urge to participate. Come on people, stay on topic. This took, what, 5-10 posts to devolve?

Anyway I kinda see the O.P.'s point. Belkar's growth is most plainly fake and he is quite evil, but he's now a team player. V OTOH is not, but still wants to save the world. It's like Belkar and V have switched places on the outside.

Ooh I just thought of a hair-brained prediction.

When everyone regroups, Belkar really sticks it to V for not being as good of a team player as he is. V sees right through it and is thoroughly pissed. OotS is suspicious but kinda sees Belkar's point especially with how annoyingly stand-offish V has become. The plot line ends with V killing Belkar.


Let's see this makes growth/expo for Elan, maybe Haley, Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and maybe Roy. That just leaves Durkon and maybe Haley, then Roy can be rezzed. Boy won't he be surprised to find everyone the way they are.

[Aquillion]

Er, V is very arguable. Really, there have people who have seriously argued every single one of the nine alignments for her, and only a few of them were obviously founded on poor support. Her alignment is nearly as ambiguous as her sex.Well, you can argue for an alignment change, but we know that at a bare minimum V could not have been evil back when Miko detect-evil'd the party. V has also generally been the first one, aside from Belkar, to suggest 'evil' things (see the suggestion with binding Nale's soul) -- that hints at neutral good/evil.

Lawful/chaotic is harder, since they can be interpreted in more ways -- on several occasions V clearly shows no interest in obeying local laws, but the same could be said for Roy. V does seem to fit 'primarily bound to others by personal ties', though, which is the description for neutrality.

[JT Jag]

Belkar is Chaotic Evil and currently in the process of trying to pass himself off as Chaotic Neutral (and it's working).

V is Lawful Neutral and well on his way to Lawful Evil if he continues as he has.

[Mollusk]

We know Belkar's character development is fake.

Hopefully a case of fake it till you make it, though. Belkar did say it himself, but maybe he doesn't know how else to think about it. :smallsmile:


V is a sociopath, and is becoming over-emotional due to being separated from Haley for so long.

Whoa. I hadn't even seen that. Come to think of it, why is V strangely attached to Haley?

Happy Holidays, everyone. Lots of love to our community, from the Philippines.

[Gloverboy]

Interesting observation. I mean, it was a punchline, but that just makes it easy to ignore or write off.

Belkar tried to murder Elan for XP, V threatened to off him for, what, pursuing B-plots?

and the big one is, yes, V was once a team player. Now He/She is going dark and splintering. Belkars motivations for changing are immaterial, they just allow him to change AND stay the same. Or, grow realistically. Irony, right? Belkar is becoming a team player.

The breaking of the stick, in short, is agony. I miss the old days when the PCs were able to find excuses to stay together. When chars were not going all dark and rogue and consorting with imps, nobody was trying to revoke memberships. Look at the splash page at the end of "Dungeon Crawling Fools" and tell me part of you doesnt long for the old days.

Could Belkar be the one to bring V back from the brink? can the chaotic evil sociopath convince the power-mad milquetoast to stop rockin the boat?

And will V zap him to dust for it?

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm inclined to not class V as moving towards evil yet. While s/he was happy to obliterate Kabuto because it was convenient, I'd still say it's neutral based on how it at least lead to Kabuto no longer being a threat to anyone.