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valadil
2008-12-18, 11:05 PM
Reading through the favorite level thread I had an idea for a new type of lower powered D&D game.

The idea is kinda like 6e. For those who don't know, in 6e, characters who pass level 6 become epic. Instead of gaining levels they gain a feat. It's a nice way to keep the power level of a game low (although one could play an 8e or 10e game to similar effect).

Anyway, the idea I had is that instead of just gaining a feat your character would cycle back to the lowest level and gain those levels similar to gestalt levels.

This sort of play would take place over a range of preferred levels. So a game might be set at levels 4-8. When a character levels to 9, he cycles back to 1, but retains the abilities he's already accumulated. By the time he would be 16, instead he's effectively a level 8 gestalt character (which I've been led to believe is significantly weaker than a level 16). A level 24 character would be a triple gestalted level 8.

When I first thought of this I wasn't thinking of it in terms of gestalt, it just kind of evolved into that. The one big difference I've had in mind so far is that a caster who repeated his caster levels would still gain spells known. Granted they'd never exceed a certain level, but the character (especially a spontaneous caster) would gain tremendous flexibility. I like this idea a lot because it gives you a reason to go double sorcerer instead of capping sorcerer and then leveling as a fighter or something. I was a little worried that all characters would end up full bab/saves with divine and arcane casting after 3 or 4 cycles, but extra spells might be enough to prevent that. I dunno. Everything else should probably stack like gestalt or else your just playing a normal game with forced multiclassing.

So, thoughts?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-18, 11:09 PM
When I first thought of this I wasn't thinking of it in terms of gestalt, it just kind of evolved into that. The one big difference I've had in mind so far is that a caster who repeated his caster levels would still gain spells known. Granted they'd never exceed a certain level, but the character (especially a spontaneous caster) would gain tremendous flexibility. I like this idea a lot because it gives you a reason to go double sorcerer instead of capping sorcerer and then leveling as a fighter or something. I was a little worried that all characters would end up full bab/saves with divine and arcane casting after 3 or 4 cycles, but extra spells might be enough to prevent that. I dunno. Everything else should probably stack like gestalt or else your just playing a normal game with forced multiclassing.I like this idea, and think it would be interesting. I do agree that everybody would essentially get go caster/skills/BAB and have almost identical abilities after about 4 iterations, but early on, it would allow for more customizability. I do have to ask if they'll still gain feats at a rate of once very 3 levels, or do they have to go Fighter if they want feats beyond the base number?

Grynning
2008-12-18, 11:16 PM
Also, would you retain E6 type caps on BAB and saves and such (as in, BAB would be maxed at +8, save progression at the bast level 8 bonus, or whatever)?

Suggestion: You could introduce something similar to prestige classes (i.e. make an Arcane Archer progression that was only 8 levels, but can only be taken on your 3rd go-round. It would just add the class features of a given PrC without advancing the other stuff, since it would presumably all be capped already.

Overall not a bad idea.

Reinboom
2008-12-18, 11:21 PM
I've had nearly exactly the same idea. Except, origins came backwards, in that I was thinking in terms of allowing an infinite gestalt - in the idea of AD&D dualclassing (but with an endless number of base classes).

I wouldn't worry too much about the BAB and Saves thing. Once you've reached that point in the game, it will start mattering less and less. Also, multiple attribute dependencies still keep the characters unique (and focused towards their original classes).


Also, would you retain E6 type caps on BAB and saves and such (as in, BAB would be maxed at +8, save progression at the bast level 8 bonus, or whatever)?

Suggestion: You could introduce something similar to prestige classes (i.e. make an Arcane Archer progression that was only 8 levels, but can only be taken on your 3rd go-round. It would just add the class features of a given PrC without advancing the other stuff, since it would presumably all be capped already.

Overall not a bad idea.

E6 is Level 6.
--
Also, I would recommend against allowing prestige classes, at least, in the idea of the classes. Many prestige classes have specially granted spells and abilities that would otherwise be too overwhelming for the base levels.

KKL
2008-12-18, 11:23 PM
This actually sounds like a rather fun idea in an odd way.

Grynning
2008-12-18, 11:24 PM
E6 is Level 6.

I know. But his example was based around a level 8 cap. Hence my use of "E6 type" ("type" as in "similar to")



Also, I would recommend against allowing prestige classes, at least, in the idea of the classes. Many prestige classes have specially granted spells and abilities that would otherwise be too overwhelming for the base levels.

You certainly couldn't just drop in the class features as they are. But you could make your own progressions that fit in with the variant. It'd be a fun way to do prestige classes, IMO.

Reinboom
2008-12-18, 11:26 PM
I know. But his example was based around a level 8 cap. Hence my use of "E6 type" ("type" as in "similar to")

Then ignore I said it. As well as your pet I just slayed because you overstepped your command. The one I already made you forget about.

Grynning
2008-12-18, 11:29 PM
Then ignore I said it. As well as your pet I just slayed because you overstepped your command. The one I already made you forget about.

Fine. I will :smallyuk:
And my cat is the demi-god offspring of Snuggles. You would do well not to trifle with him. Also, the correct past tense of "slay" is "slew."

jcsw
2008-12-18, 11:30 PM
...and here I thought some time-traveling pirate had sold the 6th edition rules on the black market and had proliferated the internet while I was sleeping...

Anyways, sounds like a fun idea, however, it'd make prestige classes which are ten levels long a bit annoying.

Malacode
2008-12-19, 12:59 AM
Thats a really awesome idea! I'm stealing that for my next campaign (Lot of the players want to try out Gestalt, but I'd like to eeeaaaassee into it, so this is perfect!)

Edit: You know what? I'm gonna look carefully through all my books, note the possible rule-breakers, then work out a system that gets past the possible kinks. I really like this idea, and reeally want to use it

Eldariel
2008-12-19, 01:30 AM
Sounds interesting. How do you plan on handling HP/saves/BAB though? Retain the first class's and take higher for each level from your Gestalt-class, if it has any better values than the first class? Would you get new feats and extra skills on the second pass through?

In a way, this reminds me of AD&D dual classing, minus the "lose your class abilities"-bit. Very interesting.

Eclipse
2008-12-19, 01:39 AM
Sounds like a lot of fun.

I do have one suggestion though. If you intend to replace hit dice if someone chooses a class that has a better hit die on the next go around, just have everyone take average hit points. It'll make bookkeeping way easier.

Murphy80
2008-12-19, 02:04 PM
Nice idea. :smallcool: There are some issues that need to be addressed.
1- Hps, would you reroll if you have the same or bigger hit dice? I might suggest using fixed hps per level. You would definitely need to track hps/level if you don't.
2- This might get complicated fast if you allow multi-classing. Too keep it simple I would suggest 1 class at a time.
3- Would you just keep going up the xp chart or start over at 1st level? I don't like either option. The first would slow character growth down, while the latter would speed it up. I might suggest a flat 2000xp/level after 6th(or whatever your GE# is). This means 6000xp between feats, just a little more than recommended E6.
4- I too would worry about all characters being very similar after a few times, so I would recommend allowing PRC.
5- A significant problem with PRC would be "+1 level to existing spellcasting class" and other abilities which add to another class (like the Enlightened Fists Monk Abilities). If you take advice #2, "+1 level to existing spellcasting class" becomes useless, if you don't, it becomes overpowering.
6- Combining #4 and 5, I would suggest you examine and tweak each PRC carefully before allowing it in and you should be fine.

I'm running a GE8 game (gestalt epic 8) and I like how it runs. Straight E6/8 always seemed too limiting for my tastes, but gestalting opens up a world of flexibility for the players.

valadil
2008-12-19, 02:36 PM
Thats a really awesome idea! I'm stealing that for my next campaign (Lot of the players want to try out Gestalt, but I'd like to eeeaaaassee into it, so this is perfect!)

Edit: You know what? I'm gonna look carefully through all my books, note the possible rule-breakers, then work out a system that gets past the possible kinks. I really like this idea, and reeally want to use it

Glad to hear it :-D Please, please, please, tell us how it goes. I just started a long term campaign and wouldn't be able to start one of these for a while.

I hadn't thought so much about HP. I'd always assumed they would advance but I hadn't figured out how. I think that using averages of the highest die type at each level makes sense, but I'd let someone's con mod stack with itself on repeated levels. There should be some growth but I'm okay with slowing it after a while.

I wouldn't cap skills, but I would cap base saves and attack bonus. The way I see it is that level 8 of fighter provides a BAB of 8, but +2 skill points. The BAB is set to 8, whereas the skills increment by 2. Intuitively I feel like HP work this way too.

+1 casting progression PrCs would probably break this game as written, but I feel like they could be reworded to work within the level repeat. Because this is just some idea I cooked up and not published material I'm just going to leave it at that and not worry about rewording those PrCs in a way that rules lawyers can't break.

Murphy80
2008-12-19, 05:32 PM
2 other issues;
a- expect to see lots of rogue levels, thus giving almost everyone evasion. In my current GE8 game with 12 character only 3 characters don't have evasion and 2 of those have full caster levels on both sides of the gestalt (Wiz/druid and Wiz/Bard).
b- racial paragon classes, with their "racial only" entry requirements and "+1 level to existing spellcasting class" deserve some thought.

I hadn't thought so much about HP. I'd always assumed they would advance but I hadn't figured out how. I think that using averages of the highest die type at each level makes sense, but I'd let someone's con mod stack with itself on repeated levels. There should be some growth but I'm okay with slowing it after a while.let me see if I understand. Example: 6 Wiz+3 Fig(in that order) with 14 con (Low average) = 10(1st F) + 10(2d10, 2-3 F) + 6(3d4, 4-6 W) + 18(conx9)hp. Is this correct?
If it is, I would advise against it. If they want to increase hp after 6th, let them take level in a d12 class or toughness feats (of whatever flavor you want). It also makes high con to valuable.
I wouldn't cap skills, but I would cap base saves and attack bonus. The way I see it is that level 8 of fighter provides a BAB of 8, but +2 skill points. The BAB is set to 8, whereas the skills increment by 2. Intuitively I feel like HP work this way too. I assume you will be keeping the max ranks (9 for level 6). If so, then I see little problem with adding skills as you add levels. example: 6 Fig+3 Rog(in that order) with 10 int = 8(1st F) + 10(2-6 F) + 24(1-3 R)sp. Is this correct?
+1 casting progression PrCs would probably break this game as written, but I feel like they could be reworded to work within the level repeat. Because this is just some idea I cooked up and not published material I'm just going to leave it at that and not worry about rewording those PrCs in a way that rules lawyers can't break.I would worry about this. Good players will find any breakage and they will be upset if you nerf it after-the-fact. Deal with it before it becomes a problem and it will be a much smaller deal.

UserClone
2008-12-19, 07:20 PM
Murphy, I think what he's saying is that since his players aren't the rules-lawyer type, he isn't going to bother with that bit himself, though I'm sure whoever would enjoy that sort of thing is welcome to do it and post it here.

valadil
2008-12-19, 09:19 PM
Murphy, I think what he's saying is that since his players aren't the rules-lawyer type, he isn't going to bother with that bit himself, though I'm sure whoever would enjoy that sort of thing is welcome to do it and post it here.

Word. If I do end up running the game and think this alternative is worthwhile I'll write up some proper rules. Until then I'm willing to ask my players to play nice.

Regarding HP and skills, I'm still not sure if they should keep growing after the first cycle. Initially I was thinking they would and skills would use total character level for the cap. I'd have to playtest to see if that works though.

I think a lot of the questions about this system have boolean answers and the game could work either way. I'm open to leaving those questions as alternatives in an alternative system. Maybe in some peoples' games BAB and saves will continue to increase and only spellcasting and class features are restricted. Maybe not.

Aether
2008-12-20, 01:00 PM
Some other things to consider.

How would characters gain higher-level class abilities if they can't progress beyond 8th level?

Or are you only capping BAB and saves at eighth? What about max skill ranks?

How do you deal with the Monk and Paladin classes--where, if you stop progressing in them, you can't return to level them... barring some rather unique prestige classes.

For that matter, how do you deal with the hassles of keeping track of different class requirements--monk being lawful, bard being chaotic, druid...

How do you handle experience gain with all the different classes they will be taking? That is to say... normally the "preferred class" is "ignored" when it comes to experience penalties for multi-classing, but in this kind of game... And on the flip side, what do you do to make up for the fact that (for balance/bookeeping sake) you did away with multi-classing penalties... and now some races that were a bit better due to "preferred class: any" aren't as useful... whereas those races with odd preferred classes got a bonus?

How do you deal with level loss due to death? How do you deal with level loss due to level drain? Actually, I don't even know how that'd work in a "normal" Gestalt game...



How do you scale the challenges?

Will you make NPCs that are gestalts, or add levels to monsters in gestalt format...

How do you keep things challenging when Hitpoints, saves, and to-hit may be capped but Spells per day, caster levels, BUT breadth and variety of abilities keep increasing? This could sort of lead to a "glass cannon" effect, where PCs could steamroll or counter most things in an Alpha Strike, but their "staying power" will actually be limited by the HIT POINTS..

How will you handle wealth by level?

What will you do with someone who to stick with one class and takes over 20 levels in it.

How do you handle hirelings, cohorts, familiars, animal companions?

How do you handle spells that depend on the hit-die of casters or victims? Such as power words, or heck, Turn Undead?

How do you handle level adjustments? Do you allow buy-off?




Sorry to avalanche you with questions and problems, but better I bring these things up now, then you have them surprise you during the game, right?

valadil
2008-12-20, 09:40 PM
Lemme go through these one at a time.
[/quote]



[QUOTE=Aether;5511420]Some other things to consider.

How would characters gain higher-level class abilities if they can't progress beyond 8th level?

Or are you only capping BAB and saves at eighth? What about max skill ranks?

Abilities cap. I would once again like to point out that 8th level is not set in stone, it's just an example.



How do you deal with the Monk and Paladin classes--where, if you stop progressing in them, you can't return to level them... barring some rather unique prestige classes.

I don't see why this game would treat them any differently. I mean, you take your 8 levels in those classes and then move on to something else. There wouldn't be any point in repeating either class.

I actually think monks are one of the interesting classes for this system. They get a lot of abilities on the first iteration, but gain no benefit on the second cycle, so you'd switch over to a melee character who gets proper BAB and HP.


For that matter, how do you deal with the hassles of keeping track of different class requirements--monk being lawful, bard being chaotic, druid...

I'd leave that up to the DM. When I DM games I usually throw them out anyway.


How do you handle experience gain with all the different classes they will be taking? That is to say... normally the "preferred class" is "ignored" when it comes to experience penalties for multi-classing, but in this kind of game... And on the flip side, what do you do to make up for the fact that (for balance/bookeeping sake) you did away with multi-classing penalties... and now some races that were a bit better due to "preferred class: any" aren't as useful... whereas those races with odd preferred classes got a bonus?

Hmmm. Well, how about once someone gets their 8 levels in a class they gain favored: that class so that it doesn't count against multiclassing?


How do you deal with level loss due to death? How do you deal with level loss due to level drain? Actually, I don't even know how that'd work in a "normal" Gestalt game...

I'd treat it as a negative level rather than having someone lose an actual level.




How do you scale the challenges?

Will you make NPCs that are gestalts, or add levels to monsters in gestalt format...

My games usually focus on NPCs with levels. I'd probably make similarly partially gestalt NPCs.

I've never found the CR system to be very good. Some groups powergame, some groups don't. I usually start with weak encounters and turn up the CR until I'm challenging the players. I'd treat this game the same way. The first time through the level cycle I'd use standard enemies, since they players aren't any more powerful. Maybe on second tier characters I'd increase the CR by 50% or so? So a level 8/8 would get a CR 12 encounter. A 3rd tier would go up to 75%, so level 8/8/8 would fight CR 14s. I've never done gestalt before though, so I'd really have to play it by ear.


How do you keep things challenging when Hitpoints, saves, and to-hit may be capped but Spells per day, caster levels, BUT breadth and variety of abilities keep increasing? This could sort of lead to a "glass cannon" effect, where PCs could steamroll or counter most things in an Alpha Strike, but their "staying power" will actually be limited by the HIT POINTS..

Spells per day and caster level do get capped. Spells known do not. A sorcerer 8/8 knows twice the spells of a sorc/fighter 8/8.

I'm not sure this would lead to glass cannon characters. I think it would lead to more versatile characters who have more solutions available to each problem rather than the specialist characters we're used to. I think this would let me give them more broad, open ended challenges.


How will you handle wealth by level?

At first thought I was going to treat their total level as their character level and use that. Since you bring up the question though, that's a terrible idea. If BAB is capped at 8, a +5 sword becomes way more potent than usual.

It might make sense to reduce later levels depending on how many cycles a character has been through. IE, your first cycle counts full. The second cycle counts for half that. Third is half that. So, a level 8 gets level 8 wealth. An 8/8 gets 12 (8 + 8/2) and an 8/8/8 gets 14 (8 + 8/2 + 8/2/2). Yes, this is the same scale I used for CR.

Of course this system is designed to limit power. It might make sense to cap the WBL at the highest level of the cycle. Characters can get more money, but the WBL would somehow determine the most expensive items a character can get.


What will you do with someone who to stick with one class and takes over 20 levels in it.

Gained abilities can stack. This would mean a pure fighter gets a ton of feats (actually he gets the normal fighter amount of feats, but BAB stops.) Same with a rogue. A monk would be pointless since they gain class abilities. Casters would get spells known, but not caster level or slots for higher level spells.

In effect it would work well for some classes but not others. This idea was conceived with sorcerers in mind. I like the idea of branching them out into more low level spells rather than giving them insanely powerful higher level spells.


How do you handle hirelings, cohorts, familiars, animal companions?

Familiars and companions use their masters level in the relevant class. A wizard who takes repeat wizard levels could get a higher level familiar. This should be doublechecked for breakability before anyone uses it though.

Hirelings would be treated as usual. They gain levels as a PC or at a reduced rate. They'd cycle just like players.


How do you handle spells that depend on the hit-die of casters or victims? Such as power words, or heck, Turn Undead?

Hm. I was thinking of using the total character level for this. I should probably check specific spells though to see if that's a good or bad idea.


How do you handle level adjustments? Do you allow buy-off?

I don't know how buy off works so I can't answer that. I don't see why LA wouldn't work as normal.





Sorry to avalanche you with questions and problems, but better I bring these things up now, then you have them surprise you during the game, right?

No worries. I'm glad someone is thinking of these things :) I'll gladly take an avalanche of questions over a thread nobody is interested in.

Aether
2008-12-20, 10:41 PM
Hmmm. Well, how about once someone gets their 8 levels in a class they gain favored: that class so that it doesn't count against multiclassing?

Guess that makes sense... But it means there's less penalty to choosing races with unusual Preferred Classes; and there is less benefit to playing humans. Hmm... However, people who take only 1-2 level dips in certain classes might still have potential problems with gaining XP due to multi-classing, correct?
It might be simpler to remove the preferred class multi-classing XP penalties. That, or simply give a boost in starting wealth or something to somebody who starts in their preferred class, and that's all.


I'm not sure this would lead to glass cannon characters. I think it would lead to more versatile characters who have more solutions available to each problem rather than the specialist characters we're used to. I think this would let me give them more broad, open ended challenges.

They are going to be versatile. I kind of meant that, while they'll have lots of options and ways to recover after fights, the hitpoint cap will limit them in the tactical sense. Or, maybe I've misunderstood your explanation of hitpoint gain after 8th level.



Challenge Ratings.

It's relevant because the CR of the monsters you will throw at them, all determines; how tough the encounter is, how much loot they will get, and how much experience they will get. All those things need to be balanced. Challenge Rating is just a number that lets you adjust those things; match difficulty of the fight to reward to the PCs.

Basically, in this alternate-leveling shtick, you want to figure out how tough the PCs will start getting as they layer on levels, so that you can give them loot, XP, and challenges at the right rate and difficulty.



I don't know how buy off works so I can't answer that. I don't see why LA wouldn't work as normal.

LA buy-offs work under the idea that: at first level, 5 points of DR is great. At 15th level? Not such an overwhelming advantage.
Roughly speaking it works like this: once you have 3 times as many character levels as LAs, you can give up one of your character levels to remove that LA. Roughly. I don't recall the exact mechanic, heh..

A +1 LA race would get 3 levels of... barbarian. Than he would sell that 3rd level of barbarian, and mark off the +1 LA. So he would simply be a level 2 barbarian.

LA buy-offs are in Unearthed Arcana I think... Actually, I think Unearthed Arcana is where I saw both Gestalts and LA buyoffs... LA buy-offs won't be that crucial... I'm not entirely sure why I mentioned them.

valadil
2008-12-21, 01:05 AM
Guess that makes sense... But it means there's less penalty to choosing races with unusual Preferred Classes; and there is less benefit to playing humans. Hmm... However, people who take only 1-2 level dips in certain classes might still have potential problems with gaining XP due to multi-classing, correct?

I'm okay with that effect. Humans are too dominant anyway.


It might be simpler to remove the preferred class multi-classing XP penalties. That, or simply give a boost in starting wealth or something to somebody who starts in their preferred class, and that's all.

They are going to be versatile. I kind of meant that, while they'll have lots of options and ways to recover after fights, the hitpoint cap will limit them in the tactical sense. Or, maybe I've misunderstood your explanation of hitpoint gain after 8th level.

My HP ideas aren't set in stone either. What I have in mind is too complicated for notetaking. Basically the die type at a given level should be the largest available at that level, just like gestalt. So a fighter who starts adding in barbarian levels would gain 1 hp at each of those levels. But, the con mod should still add to HP. I think HP should increase just a little as PCs level, even if they already have 8 levels in a d12 class. This particular choice seems unpopular though. It might be better to go e6 style and say that after a certain point HP only come from the toughness feat.




Challenge Ratings.

It's relevant because the CR of the monsters you will throw at them, all determines; how tough the encounter is, how much loot they will get, and how much experience they will get. All those things need to be balanced. Challenge Rating is just a number that lets you adjust those things; match difficulty of the fight to reward to the PCs.

Basically, in this alternate-leveling shtick, you want to figure out how tough the PCs will start getting as they layer on levels, so that you can give them loot, XP, and challenges at the right rate and difficulty.

Seems reasonable. Unforunately I've always fudged my way past CRs and loot. I think this is another thing I'd have to playtest and then figure out what works well based on playtesting.





LA buy-offs work under the idea that: at first level, 5 points of DR is great. At 15th level? Not such an overwhelming advantage.
Roughly speaking it works like this: once you have 3 times as many character levels as LAs, you can give up one of your character levels to remove that LA. Roughly. I don't recall the exact mechanic, heh..

A +1 LA race would get 3 levels of... barbarian. Than he would sell that 3rd level of barbarian, and mark off the +1 LA. So he would simply be a level 2 barbarian.

LA buy-offs are in Unearthed Arcana I think... Actually, I think Unearthed Arcana is where I saw both Gestalts and LA buyoffs... LA buy-offs won't be that crucial... I'm not entirely sure why I mentioned them.

Yeah, I think there are other kinks to work out before dealing with LA buyoff. TY for the feedback.

JaxGaret
2008-12-21, 01:23 AM
Just wanted to point out that a simple way to describe an "E6 game played with 8 levels instead of 6" is just as E8.