PDA

View Full Version : Help with rogue pregen



Skjaldbakka
2008-12-18, 11:24 PM
Before I get started, this is for a module I will be running at UKon, so if you are going to that, please don't read what is in the spoiler.


Ok, so I am running a one-shot for a convention, and most of the adversaries are constructs. One of the characters that can be played is a rogue/assassin. This character infilitrated the cult that is trying to 'ressurect' the dragon, and came back with information about their plans. He is effectively the plot hook, but also a playable character.

The problem is that the cult leader has an artifact that allows him to animate objects, so the 'undead' the party will be facing are actually animated objects. The boss fight is in fact the animated corpse of the great dragon that was slain many years ago, whose body was preserved with magic.

Rogues suck against constructs, generally speaking. Any ideas how to counter that? I vaguely recall a feat for that (splintering strike, maybe?).

Alternately, he could have lots of wands and scrolls to UMD.


Any input would be appreciated.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-18, 11:28 PM
Give him a Weapon Augment Crystal, the 6,000GP one allows full SA against constructs, as well as dealing 1d6 bonus damage and counting as Adamantine for the purpose of DR. What level?

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-18, 11:50 PM
Level 8. I was hoping to avoid a Chekhov's Gun type situation. That seems really specifically geared towards constructs, and that is only useful against constructs. Is there anything that would be helpful against constructs, and also against something else?

Grynning
2008-12-18, 11:55 PM
Weird, we were just talking about this in another thread. There's a feat, Razing Strike, that allow SA damage against undead, as well as a spell in the spell compendium, that I believe is called Golemstrike. Both require an arcane caster dip. You could also give the rogue the Precise Strike variant (from Dungeonscape, I think) or the Disruptive Attack ACF from PHBII. They might set off alarm bells for your players, but you could also just tell them you don't like the regular SA progression or Rogue features or whatever. Most players wouldn't think twice about a DM with a weird pet peeve :smallwink:.

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-19, 12:24 AM
It occurs to me that the cultist leader is supposed to be in that fight as well, and every room that has animated objects also has cultists. Which means there is always something squishy for the assassin to sneak attack.

i just need to add some more cultist minions to the final fight, and maybe up the level of the party by 1 to make up for the increased CR.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-19, 12:27 AM
Does it have to be a Rogue? A Scout 4/Ranger 4(Swift Hunter) almost always goes with Undead and Constructs as it's first Favored Enemies, and has just as much skill-monkeyness.

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-19, 12:28 AM
I'm going for an urban sleuth feel. Also, i'm trying to stick pretty closely to core, since it is a convention game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-19, 12:30 AM
I'm going for an urban sleuth feel. Also, i'm trying to stick pretty closely to core, since it is a convention game.Urban Ranger, then?

Darrin
2008-12-19, 09:05 AM
Rogues suck against constructs, generally speaking. Any ideas how to counter that? I vaguely recall a feat for that (splintering strike, maybe?).


Two options:

1) Penetrating Strike Alternate Class Feature, Dungeonscape p. 13. Rogue loses trap sense (shrug), gains 1/2 sneak attack damage against creatures normally immune to sneak attack when flanking. There are still a few caveats... it works against constructs, undead and plants, but not elementals or oozes, which can't be flanked. It also does not work when target is flat-footed or denied their dex bonus. This means the rogue *must* have an ally to flank with. However, there are a couple ways where a rogue may flank without an ally:

1a) Adaptable Flanker, Vexing Flanker, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. The first two feats are from PHBII. Adaptable Flanker allows you to pick an additional square that you threaten as counting for flanking purposes, as well as the square you occupy. Against a medium-sized opponent with a reach weapon, you can pick the square on the other side of your opponent.

1b) Clarion Commander, White Raven Defense, two White Raven maneuvers. Requires Tome of Battle (a dip into Crusader or Warblade might be best, otherwise Martial Study/Stance), but the "Perpetual Flank" option allows you to make an Intimidate DC 20 check as a standard action, if successful then the target is considered flanked for 10 rounds, and there's no way they can counter this.

2) Dragontouched + Dragonfire Strike feats, Dragon Magic p. 18. Converts sneak attack damage into fire damage. Probably the easiest solution and gives you full damage instead of half. For most opponents, this works against flanked, flat-footed, and dex-denied opponents. Oozes and elementals can't be flanked, but could still be flat-footed and denied their dex bonus.

For a single rogue going up against a construct, if he doesn't have an ally, he can still use invisibility/blinking/blindness/grappling (to deny target dex bonus) or some other method to render the construct flat-footed (wand of grease).

Person_Man
2008-12-19, 10:42 AM
Also, don't forget about a Scroll of Flame Blade and a Scroll of Greater Invisibility for the boss fight. You'll hit 95% of the time.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-19, 01:19 PM
Adaptable Flanker allows you to pick an additional square that you threaten as counting for flanking purposes, as well as the square you occupy. Against a medium-sized opponent with a reach weapon, you can pick the square on the other side of your opponent.
That doesn't work. You still need two people to flank. Here's the information from the Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_flank&alpha=F):
flank

To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking. Adapatable Flanker lets you also pick the opposite square, but doesn't let you also become another character. Plus the question has already been answered in the FAQ:
Can a character with the Adaptive Flanker feat (PH2 73) and a spiked chain flank an enemy all by himself (since he can choose to count as occupying the square opposite the enemy as well as his own square)?
No. This feat doesn’t let you get around the basic rule of flanking, which is that you need an ally to accomplish it—it just lets you pretend to occupy an extra space when figuring out if you’re actually flanking an enemy with your ally.

Darrin
2008-12-19, 01:50 PM
That doesn't work. You still need two people to flank. Here's the information from the Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_flank&alpha=F): Adapatable Flanker lets you also pick the opposite square, but doesn't let you also become another character.

Yes it does. You count as occupying the new square and your current square "for you and your allies".



Plus the question has already been answered in the FAQ:

I was going to say, whoever answered the FAQ apparently was unaware of the entry for "ally" in the PHB glossary: "In most cases, references to “allies” include yourself." However, although the person answering the FAQ seems to be genuinely in ignorance of this, it's not even really an issue since the text of Adaptable Flanker even explicitly identifies "you" as one of the recipients of the benefits. In short, the FAQ is wrong.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-19, 02:31 PM
Yes it does. You count as occupying the new square and your current square "for you and your allies". That's not the point. The D&D definition of "flank" requires another character. Even if you count as occupying all the squares around an enemy, you still don't count as being yourself and another character. You fail the requirement to flank.

Draz74
2008-12-19, 04:55 PM
In short, the FAQ is wrong.

Though it may be suggesting a great houserule, just like when the Sage said that you don't count as your own ally for White Raven Tactics. Technically contradicts the RAW, but a great rule to play with anyway.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-19, 08:51 PM
My response to things that allow sneak attacks against things normally immune to precision damage: "Ouch, my verisimilitude! What did my poor suspension of belief ever do to you? :smallfrown:"

Come on, either something has weak points to target or it doesn't. Yeah, in theory, you can use some sort of magic to create weak points on a creature that normally completely lacks them, but it's pretty implausible that this can work any more effectively than just attacking with magic directly.

It's the same basic problem as with the invisibility spell, which does more than the higher-level improved invisibility. Making you invisible and then detecting whether you attack something and ending the effect if you do is strictly more complicated then just making you invisible, period. That the more complicated thing is easier to do really doesn't make any sort of in-game sense.

Game balance should not take the form of bizarre and inexplicable phenomena in the game world, IMO. Stuff like this is different from high-level PCs being absurdly tough, coordinated, etc. All of that makes sense within the context of a setting where real-world limitations just don't exist.

Sorry, I realize that was a bit of a tangential rant.

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-19, 09:01 PM
I agree 100%. Low level invisibility should make you invisible by bending light around you, thus also making you blind in the process. The high level version would let you see while invisible. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, the invisibility that drops upon attacking goes further than just D&D and gaming. Star Trek anyone?

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-19, 09:21 PM
Ok, I am now working on the two sorcerors. I generally consider spellcasters to be a bit stronger, so I am making them less optimally than the other pregens to make up for it. The two sorcerers are brothers, and they are both dragon disciples, one gold, the other silver. (sorc 6/disc 3)

The gold dragon disc focuses on direct damage spells:
3rd level:
Fireball or Lightning Bolt (player choice)
2nd level:
Scorching Ray
Melf's Acid Arrow
1st level:
Mage Armor
Shield
Magic Missile
Sleep (DM note- the minions are low enough HD that sleep can take one out)

The silver dragon disc focuses on debuffs and buffs:
3rd level:
Haste or Ray of ExhaustionSlow (player choice)
2nd level:
Blur
Glitterdust
1st level:
Mage Armor
Shield
Ray of Enfeeblement
Color Spray

So, thoughts on the spell list? I'm not sure about RoE for the debuff, since the big challenge monsters are constructs, and its maybe not worth blowing a 3rd level spell on a mook.

edit- I am giving the gold d.d. practiced spellcaster. not sure its worth it for the silver, since there is no SR in the module.

Sovin N'dore
2008-12-19, 11:23 PM
I have no issue with the spellcasters. I might suggest the possibility of having a Wand of Golemstrike somewhere in the module as a possible option for trying to fight the dragon... just a thought.

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-19, 11:32 PM
I think I am pretty much going with the idea of increasing the party's level, and add more cultists for the rogue to sneak attack. The spoo cultists are pretty much 1 shotable with sneak attack, and the cult leader is going to be very sad when he gets sneak attacked (he might actually fail the death attack, I'm probably going to try to make that a 50/50 shot).

Since I'm making the monsters and the PCs, I can do things like that.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-20, 03:35 AM
My response to things that allow sneak attacks against things normally immune to precision damage: "Ouch, my verisimilitude! What did my poor suspension of belief ever do to you? :smallfrown:"

Come on, either something has weak points to target or it doesn't. Yeah, in theory, you can use some sort of magic to create weak points on a creature that normally completely lacks them, but it's pretty implausible that this can work any more effectively than just attacking with magic directly.I think it's fine. You, as a Rogue, are trained in spotting and hitting the weak points on stuff. You can see veins, muscles, and tendons, and target them in a way that makes the enemy's own flexing shred their elbow. That applies to all enemies that would fall into the animal kingdom IRL. Things that get around SA immunity represent you learning that, for example, while Skeletons lack any muscles, they still are vulnerable to you targeting certain joints. Penetrating Strike represents this by only being 50% effective, and making it harder to activate. Swift Ambusher makes the enemies vulnerable, but only ones you have studied in-depth and learned the vulnerabilities to. All other methods are just magic. :smallwink: