1. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    California, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 Template] Bind a Vestige to any creature

    Wow, that is quite a pick up in responses, time to get crackin'

    Quote Originally Posted by zagan View Post
    Finnally found some time to comment. i really like the concept of a creature claimed from birth by a vestige and execution is well done. A few suggestion to avoid powergaming.

    1: You could make so that the creature can never bind any other Vestige. That way going into binder and using LA buyoff to gain a bonus Vestige + boost to ability score + a feat for nearly nothing is avoid. Plus flavorwise it represent the fact that their soul is claimed by their master vestige.
    2: You could say that if a vestige ability mimic a spell or power you can't use it until your Hit dice equal the minimum caster level of the spell/power. That way you can't use Halphas imprisonement at third level.
    3: If you want to add other limit, maybe make it harder for them to be ressurect either with additional material component or a limit time. It could represent the fact that upon dieing the creature join it's master and it's harder to pull it back ?

    Just a few idea, hope that help.

    Edit: 4: Some vestiges may change or add a favored class to the creature, ranger for Leraje for example. Could be flavorful.
    Thanks, I'm glad you like it!

    1. This is a pretty good idea. The issue is, of course, that it would feel a little strange for such a Binder-riffic template to be unavailable to binders. And LA buyoff is a concern, but once you're actually in a game, unless you're starting out at a high levels, that buyoff will have a noticeable effect on the game.
    2. The basis of the idea is pretty good, though there is a big problem as is. If, using your example, I did this with Halphax, then anyone who took it wouldn't get the Secure Shelter ability until 9th ECL, the Wall of Iron ability until 13th, and the Imprisonment until 18th! And then he would really be worth it for any low-level character.
    3. I really like this idea. It won't come up terribly often, but it is so flavorful, and adds a small drawback, which the template could use.
    4. Also a good small flavor idea!


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromancer999 View Post
    Or they could just have a permanently filled vestige slot if they do become a binder.

    I'd agree with that, although I'd suggest binder level to bind the vestige.

    Love this idea.

    Also, maybe a commune spell with the vestige?
    I like this idea a little better. It is more like the Tenebrous Apostate. You're allowed to bind other vestiges, you can just never get rid of your chosen one.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the second comment here. That the vestige could only choose them if they already had the requisite binder level or hit dice? On an inherited template?

    Digging the commune spell idea. Goes hand in hand with the skill check bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    In his house at Rlyeh...
    The Stars are right
    Not Dead Which Can Eternal Lie
    At the Mountains of Madness

    Please agree to create templates for these things... Cthulhu bound Nightstalkers/Devourers = Starspawn!
    Hahaha...I'll certainly put them in there under a homebrew catagory once we've got the finer detail worked out. Gotta love The Demented One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    I'd say you probably would have to do LA and maybe CR individually.

    The +2 to three ability scores is already +1 LA worthy, although in truth it's more of +0.7 LA (+4 to one ability score is probably as good if not better depending upon score), although you can go +2 Con, +4 Cha. Thankfully Charisma is (almost) only used by casters and a full caster hates LA.

    Halphax is definitely worth more LA due to the combination of DR 10/adamantine and Imprisonment (although as it can only take one creature out at a time that's made much weaker), probably +3 or +4 (by the books it is a +7 before acid-testing).

    Orthos, by the books, is a +5 + whatever displacement is worth (Savage Species doesn't say) and then acid-testing would have to be involved. Personally I'd say blindsight and displacement at least jack this up to +3.

    Now to look at lower level ones there's Naberius, who'd normally even without the ability modifiers be a +1 LA how they assign LA. That's definitely not fair when compared to a 1 level dip in binder without LA buy-off. At the same time the +4 Con and +2 Cha is actually rather sweet for the characters most likely to dip into Naberius and with LA buy-off it's simply paying something less than 3000 XP for +4 Con, +2 Cha, and several good abilities.

    If you really want to do the simple thing (i.e. have a set and sweeping this level has LA +X) then I'd advice putting a hit die minimum on each vestige (hit dice must equal the minimum binder level to bind it), or else just watch for abuse-able combinations (such as warlock + Naberius). Even then it depends upon if you're using LA buy-off.
    That though occurred to me, but honestly I didn't feel like I had the experience to make the LA and CR adjustments different and accurate. Which is why it was mentioned for help!

    I'm...not sure where you're getting your info that three +2s are nearly enough to count for a +1 LA. Catfolk offer +4 Dex and +2 Cha and a couple other things for +1 LA, and they're barely considered for the most part, except for very specific builds. And even then I've never seen them be the optimum choice. Official sources in general have no idea how to do LA or CR.

    And while casters certainly hate LA more than other classes, don't forget that other classes lose HD, Skills, BAB, Saves, class abilities, level-based feats, and stat boots too! its is quite a trade off.

    DR 8/adamantine can be gotten with a +1 LA in Mineral Warrior, along with several other benefits. And don't forget that all their saves are tied to their hit dice and Cha, not the spell level. I can't imagine any character who would think Halphax's abilities as they are would be worth three class levels, except for purely flavor reasons.

    Acid-testing?

    I agree that Orthos, by virtue of that amazing 50% displacement, should probably be boosted to +3, since that is amazingly good. But at +5 I could just take 5 levels of Wizard and memorize Displacement. 5 HD of Wizard would be way better.

    Naberius is a special case for optimizers and warlocks. I could see granting him a +2 LA just for that.

    I don't have any particular desire to do a sweeping LA, so no issue there. That said it is hard to put a minimum HD requirement on an inherited template. This sucker is not an acquired template that you can pick up at any point in your career. You're born with it, or you don't get it.

    I personally feel like it is the DM's job to watch for abuse-able combos, not the template's (though the players should be upfront too!). The template should be fun, functional, balanced, and above all worth taking as it stands, and not punish players who take Naberius for flavor and not to offset their constant Con sacrificing. And LA buyoff is a variant rule, not core, that that too is up to the DM.


    Thanks for the input guys! I'll be doing some updating some time today tomorrow!

    UPDATE - Alright, I updated and added some things. Claimed Soul, making it more difficult to resurrect a Chosen of the void. I added some favored class changes, and changed Naberius' and Orthos' LAs by +1. If you can bind multiple vestiges then one slot is always taken by your template vestige. And the DC to resist your vestige's influence increases if you make multiple saves in a short span of time.
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2011-01-16 at 05:15 PM.