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    Default Re: Alternate Class Features For All Classes (Feats/ACFs, P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    PEACHes incoming. I'll do this class by class, running down the list.
    Woo! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Got to say, I'm a fan of this. Normally, I'm not a big fan of fluff for homebrew stuff, but I'm a fan of that quote. From a random person, it may sound a bit self-righteous, but, for a Paladin, it works.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Minor nitpick, but you should mention the level you decide when to grab the ACF. Most of the time it's unnecessary, but it's the form that the actual books use, and, to be fair, it's a good form for things like Dungeoncrashing fighter and others.
    Okay, this is a good point. I will add it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    As for the ability itself, the dual stat you have set-up probably should have language such as "When you gain this alternate class feature, choose either Wisdom or Charisma to determine which stat determines the number of uses per day and the insight bonus it grants to Armor Class." It's an odd case, but it does make it easier in the case where a Paladin with 14 Wisdom, 16 Charisma gets an Owl's Wisdom spell and suddenly finds himself with an extra use at the end of the day... or start or just whatever.
    I guess that makes sense? My idea was that most Paladins will have their Wisdom always at 14, and their Charisma pumped, so it wouldn't matter for them to choose, because Charisma will almost always be higher, unless the Paladin is Wisdom focused, in which case Wisdom will be higher. There isn't really much place for in between. And, in your example, what if their Charisma was instead boosted, gaining them an extra 2 uses? They seem equal, except that I didn't want to box the Paladin into having to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    It's also odd in that your language makes it sound like a physical, literal shield with it being able to shield bash and the like, but its bonus is both an insight bonus to AC rather than a shield bonus and said bonus exists as long as the shield does, meaning that a Paladin could summon it, strap it to his back, and forget about it for the rest of the hour. This is silly and probably an oversight. That said, the insight bonus is better, because it allows a Paladin to go sword and board (or, really, just board) and still have a buckler for the shield bonus.
    It has both. He naturally gains an Insight bonus simply because the shield boosts his senses magically, allowing him to react to danger. He also gains the normal shield bonus when wielding it. Do you think I should make the insight bonus only when he is wielding it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    For the rest of it, you make it sound like the enhancement bonus is to attacks and damage, due to the special qualities listed, but also make it sound like those same enhancements could go towards shield AC (again, due to the qualities). As such, I would reword it to say:
    A lot of the special qualities listed are not offensive at all. And the enhancement bonus always applies to the Shield bonus while the shield is not being wielded as a weapon (when you haven't shield-bashed), and when you shield bash, you gain that bonus to attack and damage for the shield bash, but lose your shield bonus to Armor Class. That's just how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    "When a Paladin calls the shield it has a total of one-half the Paladin's class level in enhancement bonuses to spread the special qualities, an offensive enhancement, and an defensive enhancement. Points spent on the offensive enhancement treat the shield as being a magical weapon of the same amount of points invested into it. Defensive points further increase the AC granted by the shield, giving an extra +1 to Insight bonus to AC per point invested into the defensive enhancement. Thus, a level 8 Paladin with a 16 Wisdom and 12 Charisma who uses three of his points in the offensive enhancement and one point for the defensive enhancement would treat the shield as a +3 weapon, meaning he would gain an extra +3 to-hit and damage and gain a +4 Insight bonus to Armor Class rather than the normal base bonus of +3. Neither the offensive or defensive enhancement may exceed a +5 bonus."
    This is good enough that I might just include it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also, you need to mention how much the special qualities cost in enhancement points and where exactly those qualities themselves can be found (assuming it is not core). Light fortification is a +1 armor/shield quality normally, but here I'm not sure, since it does not say.
    It is the same as normal. I will mention that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    On the special qualities, as a player, I'm miffed that you can't just get a base "At X level, you may have +Y special quality." As a fellow homebrewer and DM, I understand that that is just way too open ended in practice. As you have the outlines for an epic progression already, you should probably have a sidebar inside a spoiler for various epic special qualities.

    That said, this is a solid start!
    Yeah, I was thinking about it, but decided it would be better to give them options rather than allow them everything.
    I could definitely add some epic ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Again, you need to tell me what I'm losing and when I lose it. Right now, it makes it seem like I'm either gaining things for free or losing smite evil and proficiency with shields if I chose to at 6th level.

    That said, I love this ACF both by itself and with Sacred Bulwark. I may just have to roll up a Paladin with these bad boys next time I get the chance.
    That's actually a feat. I am pretty stupid for not labeling it as such, but that's what it is. I will go make a feat tag next to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    This is something that I honestly have a rough time gauging. It's more like using a Summon Monster X than a special mount, but it's limited in what it can summon. For example, at 4th level, a LG Paladin could have 2-4ish uses of Summon Monster 5 to get a Hound Archon. A CG Paladin gets the same number of uses, but instead it's a SM 6. Imps and Quasits are simply not summonable with the SM series.
    The main problem with using Summon Monster is that there is not an equal distribution of aligned outsiders, which makes it all but impossible to actually try to make the ACF along alignment lines with those abilities. This was the closest I could get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    At the level this becomes available, I say it should equal to the same level's worth of summon monster, maybe less. Thus, a 5th level Paladin gets something off of either SM 2 or 3. As he levels up, say, in around 9-11, he instead gets ahead, getting either SM 6 at level 9 or SM 7 at level 11, growing slightly faster than an equal level wizard simply due to the limitations on the ability and the different amount of uses per day.
    Except, again, A) I wanted to make it seem more personal than that, and B) the outsiders are not equal distributed across the Summon Monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    As is, though, I've got a hard time judging it. Do I think it should be better than a Summon Monster Relevant? Yeah, probably, but it uses an entirely different determination for usages per day. High level spells per day are pretty easy to figure out at any given point, but Paladins - Paladins especially - could have Charisma ranging from 12-20 at even first level, depending on how much of a CHA-monkey that Paladin is going to be.
    Unfortunately, Summon Monster doesn't really fit the flavor of the ability, in addition to the above points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I like how you mirrored the alignments with the wings. Nice job on that. Sadly, the crunch is a bit weak. At lower levels, they probably should be limited in use, but this ability doesn't grow properly. Instead, I'd model the amount of use and abuse the wings can take on either Dragonsborn or Raptorans. Switch it so the wings are (Ex), but take a move action to "activate" and go from there.
    Hm, okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Hmm, reading this makes me think I was overly broad in my reading of the Bulwark ability. That said, I honestly think it's not a bad idea to just merge this two together. A free weapon is nice, but only having it for 10 minutes at a time is really annoying. If you don't merge them, consider bumping up the time to either 10 minutes or even 1 hour per Paladin level.
    Merging this with Bulwark? Um, they have completely different niches, and different uses, and they target the same class feature. In addition, this, plus Sacred Bulwark, is much, much better than the normal Special Mount class feature. That is part of why I have them separate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    My comments for the above and Bulwark go doubly here. If you do merge them, consider giving the ranged option a bit more "oomph" somehow, just due to the lack of outside support. My gut reaction is to add some of the archery Ranger spells in Spell Compendium either to the Paladin's spell-list or as additional enhancements, probably in the +1 to +2 range, depending.
    I should probably give them summoned arrows as well. However, I like the Ranger spells idea as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    You need to remake the tables for spells per day here, too. Honestly, it'd just be easier to copypasta the Bard's table from level 5 onwards, tweaking it slightly for the level delay. As for the list itself, I'd also throw them a bone and either let them grab some domain spells or give them an advanced learning that allows them to grab some cleric spells.

    Also throw a line in this ACF setting the Paladin's caster level equal to his class level. Like it should have been from the start.
    The problem with the idea of using the bard's spells is that the Paladin can only get this ACF at 4th level or higher (I am going clarify that). Granting them the choice between a few themed Domains seems alright.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I like this in that while it takes away something solidly "PALADIN" with Smite Evil, it gives back a lot in return without overdoing it. I would probably make it so that everything is based off of half-Paladin level to prevent Sorcadin Dips from going crazy with a solid Inspire Courage buff for a standard action. This would also stop the craziness that is a lesser Aasimar Paladin 1 from giving is party +5 to-hit and damage at level 1.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also, I would probably be explicit on if a 1st level Paladin tracks each of the three options separately on the uses per encounter. My gut says this level 1 example must choose between fast healing, more damage, or more defense rather than being able to drop all three in one fight.
    The idea was, indeed, that they would gain however many uses, but would have to choose between the three options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Also, I'd change the fluff tag on this since only one of the three deals with healing.
    Sorry, it used to be all healing, but I felt like it wouldn't be interesting enough. Will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Righteous is interesting, but focuses a lot on the traditional problem of only having one big smite, but now with 3 rounds of cigarette afterwards.
    The bonus afterwards is supposed to offset the Paladin's melee or ranged ability even without using too many smites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Attuned is an issue in that it allows gishes and Duskblades to fire off all of their Orb of Xs and similar spells in one glorious full-attack with that weapon. I'd throw a limitation of one weaponlike spell (see Complete Arcane, page X) per round and maybe focus more on the extra +3 (minimum) enhancement gained from the weapon.
    That is a good idea. I think a lot of the bonus would be the second part of the ability, which allows for the wielder to gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to his Caster level, which cannot exceed the total magic bonus the weapon has, including the bonuses that are subsumed by weapon qualities. This effectively means that the Paladin gains a bonus to Attack and Damage equal to his Caster Level all throughout his career. Hm. Maybe, once per day, the weapon allows you to cast a personal spell as a swift action, as long as the spell level is less than the enhancement bonus on the weapon (with a cap at +5, like normal)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Considering how poor the flight is on a Winged weapon and the limitations on its defensive ability, I'd probably lower it to a +2, maybe, maybe +1, bonus. The deflection bonus gained is only a equal to the enhancement bonus on the weapon, meaning that, as a +4 quality, it's highly unlikely to matter by the time that aspect comes online. By the time a PC can buy a +5 (in total) weapon, he had better have a better means of flying then his poor sword, too.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Zen is annoying in that for a +4 weapon, it gives clerics yet another means of getting WIS to AC. An easy way to avoid this is either to give it a common type or to require that the user actually attack with the weapon to activate this defensive bonus for a round.
    I like the idea of making after an attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    That said, the DR bypasser is clever and rather nice. 10+HD may be too high, however. Instead, I'd do 10+.5HD just so midlevels don't lead to people having to worry about bypassing some 30 HD monster while only having a +15 or so bonus to spot.
    Okay with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Crippling should probably be explicit on each additional failed save causing the opponent to lose 5 feet of movement and how that interacts with the slow. You should also mention if you round up or down for creatures with 15 ft move speeds and armored opponents. Right now, the second failed save would make a human have a move speed of 5 ft. Another idea is to have a crippling weapon prevent the 5 ft step action, but offer another save when they try to 5 ft step away to do so. As is, unless I was playing a high CHA-swift hunter with travel devotion, I probably would never use this weapon quality.
    Okay, I clarified that it only works for each failed save beyond the first. I could make it be that they prevent the 5 foot step whenever the wielder of the Crippling weapon makes a full attack with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Volley is nice, but the free extra shot should probably be "At highest attack bonus-5." Solid weapon quality in my book, otherwise!
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Moonsilver is interesting, but should be a +1 weapon quality due to the fact that transmuting is a +2 quality and overcomes all DR on the second to infinite hit and the fact that this is a "ranged-only" weapon enhancement.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Another general note: you should state whether these things are (Su), (Ex), SLAs, or -.
    Where would I state that?


    [Edit]: I implemented everything you suggested that I agreed with, and I added the Force Warding Armor Quality, for the epic progression.
    Last edited by unosarta; 2011-06-04 at 09:33 AM.
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