Thanks for all the comments. And they were all actually helpful and not just telling me I suck XD

I was pretty busy since I said I was going to start on the second, glad I didn't start just yet.

The most helpful thing was pointing out who has brew'd disciplines already, I was searching and couldn't find any so I was left with only one source with which to compare. *Looks at everyone else's*

One thing that I didn't get well enough is what the difference is between a Boost and a Stance. Or indeed what a Stance is really supposed to be, since they seem special with a separate system to obtain them.

*Lingers*... so much stuff to reply to

Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
My question is, what disciplines are you balancing against?

Because I have seen 3 general power levels:

1. By the Book: Here, your getting damage boost, and maybe some nice tricks. Kind of get a bit lackluster, but whatevs.
Boring as All's-hell, I could never.

2. Xefas Level: I call it this because of the disciplines he has based off of Exalted. This type of discipline scales by level, gives you neat, unique effects that greatly shape how you play your character, and are generally my preferred kind of Discipline. Examples include most of The Demented One's Disciplines, and any discipline that Xefas has made (except maybe that druidic one he made forever ago.)
I like that level best because they really embrace what "a 9th level maneuver should be at the same power level as a 6th or 7th level spell"; their capstone Maneuvers tend to be stuff like:
"If this strike kills your opponent, they can't be resurrected. Ever."
"This strike creates a sandstorm a mile in radius. You can ride it. Like a horse."
"you move so fast that, if you cascade your maneuvers right, you could create 27 duplicates of yourself for a round"
"you punch a guy several miles. They make a crater. There is a feat that augments this maneuver by letting you punch people so hard they appear in the Abyss."
They also tend to have stuff like boosts that last 5 rounds, unique meshes of mechanics (the Sleeping Goddess discipline gives you Power Points, and you get boosts that let you manifest mindblades. The Infernal Monster discipline drives you into stacking rages, where you can't do anything but attack and you can't recover any maneuvers except from a few specific disciplines. The Malfeasant Heart gives you the sweet, sweet ability to nuke a mile radius, and generally is a fusion of "NUCLEAR FIRE!" and "I AM THE KING! OBEY!". And so on and so forth.)
While this sounds uber-ultra powerful, it ends up being pretty darn balanced against higher level enemies (and are generally quirky and fun in what they let you do.)

3. Oslecamo's Touhou-based Disciplines over on minmaxboards: They are, quite frankly, intended to squeeze martial characters up to Tier 2 by shear "woah"-ness. The 1st level maneuvers tend to look like what you already have posted. Of course, both Oslecamo and the rest of the people working on those Disciplines full out state that they are designing to a much higher power level.

So, which one do you want to aim for? I'd say aim for 2, and then try to think of mega-awesome tricks that you think would be sexy-fine for a time traveling discipline. Though you could continue on the path of 3 if you felt like it.

Or you could do 1, if you were a boring person. Really, add some pizzazz.

Ah... well I searched and I couldn't find anything to compare against. I couldn't find crap to use as a guideline except.... Oslecamo's Venerable Battlefield.... Which is for gods. So ^_^; Yea. I would say this is like 2.5 on your scale.

Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
Weapon list maybe? Martial disciplines have a key set of specific associated weapons.

I was hesitant about that. I wasn't totally sure if you were supposed to include one or not, so I tried to just point it out in the description. I'll do that.

WAY too strong. Dazed is often more potent than stun, as almost nothing is immune to dazed and lots of things are immune to stunned. Considered dazzled or something equally less-than-menacing.

Ah... I had some reservations about using Dazed, but the others didn't quite capture what I had in mind. But on reflection it is a touch overpowered even by my standards.

Not many counters for level 1, but I did it with my Iron Tortoise discipline, a strong defensive discipline, so I can't fault you. Negative levels are again, WAY too strong. Not really any way to fix this easily either, just too powerful.

I wasn't thinking too much when I entered negative levels and left it at that. I should have stopped to think on the implications of a negative level better. The intention was for a moment they are weaker, as if to a previous age and experience. I'll definitely rework it (Especially since someone pointed out that anyone killed by a negative level turns into a wight XD)

This is strong, but not overly so. Perhaps a -2 penalty, and let the bonus from Sense Motive stand?

Definitely reasonable, their attention could be split a little while trying to stop time long enough to get the second attack in.

This, this is a stance. Not a boost.

I'm not very aware of the differences. When I'm done replying I'll go look at other homebrewed disciplines and check. Until then it looks like just changing it to stance and perhaps getting rid of the other stance which is apparently very improperly leveled.

Too strong, Iron Heart has a stance that increases speed at 3rd level, not first, and no miss chance. Perhaps a +2 Dodge bonus, but a -2 to attacks as you're too fast to easily coordinate?

Would that make it more of a boost? It sounds like a boost just going on feeling. If so it could replace/swap with the other boost which is really a stance it would seem.

Overall, kind of too strong. I've written quite a few disciplines, so I'm hoping my word will carry a little bit of experience. I have a similar discipline called Riven Hourglass. Also, the 20HD or more thing? I'd drop that; there isn't any call for it in other disciplines published or homebrew, and it doesn't make sense as disciplines are very static and linear.

Keep at it though, and don't let me knock the wind from your sails. Just tone it down a bit, and examine other disciplines for ideas on proper scaling.


The 20HD is for epic games where I feel that a time user would be better at home at, actually being weaker at the lower levels then unlocking at 20+HD. It was also because the only discipline I was using as a base did that so I went along with it ^_^;

Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
Backflash will actually kill anyone of 2 HD or less. Echo Fist is a neat concept, but a death sentence, since you can easily be getting up to three rounds of dazing or more at relatively low levels. Time Flash is harder to judge, because I don't feel like it's necessarily overpowered, but it's definitely better than other similar maneuvers from the core book. The stance also seems much stronger than Child of Shadows, which is a relatively solid 1st-level stance.

Ah... Well I didn't actually intend for the reverse-aging thing to be lethal on it's own. Again, back to the me not paying real attention to negative levels (Aka, I got lazy/rushed)

Maybe something like "if you have the ability to use maneuvers of level X", where X is this maneuver's level +5. So if you can use 6th level maneuvers, your 1st level ones get better, making them potentially useful to prepare again.

Mmm. Elaborate? I don't know much about maneuvers so if you could expand on that it would be great, sounds like something I'd want to use.

Quote Originally Posted by DrewVolker View Post
Well, I must admit, I feel a bit bad now.
I honestly didn't really see much issue with balance here, then again I think I did confuse dazzled with dazed for the first one.
Then again I was kinda looking at this from the view point that I believe martial classes deserve some really nice stuff, as in most games, they get the shaft at later levels.

So my bad on saying I thought this was balanced when it seems others seem to think the other thing. Sorry I gave you a false idea of balance, it was not my intention.

It's just fine. Maybe you feel a bit silly but it's fine. I was glad to have any comment at the time, and it did kick-start this thread.

Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
Anyway, my (ostensibly relevant) advice:

You had a cool idea for a discipline. You appear to have had several neat ideas for what a person with that discipline could do. And you seem to want maneuvers to scale. All good things.

But it doesn't look, to me, like you have any idea in mind about how the discipline is going to progress, both conceptually and mechanically.

Making a discipline is more akin to making a base class than it is to, say, a spell (psionic power, soulmeld, vestige, etc). It's not just one idea, but an entire progression of a theme all the way from Level 1 Village Militiaman to Level 20 Cosmos Treading Hero.

I think, if you actually want to finish the thing, and have it all be coherent and awesome, your best bet would be to go back to the drawing board and decide what each level of maneuver means as far as your theme goes.

I'd disagree a bit. I know what I see when I picture then. My issues are translating it from just thoughts, feelings, and impressions into a solid layout of text and crunchiness.

But at the same time it does still stand, with regard to actual mechanics I am at a loss. Doesn't help that I've barely ever touched martial stuff at all. Don't think I've ever played one, or seriously looked at a class other then god that was an initiator.

My individual theme for the levels is very loose, so doing as you said could be for the best... I'm not good at planning however. I've got more then a few projects I've ditched because I simply "Wasn't feeling it anymore"... planned or not.

Currently, the Level 1 Militiaman equivalent for your discipline can stop time, age-regress people by decades (or more), and shut off someone's brain for ~12 seconds. Where are you going from here? Not just mechanically, but thematically. For eight more levels of maneuvers?

Start small. Imagine a new apprentice learning your discipline. What can they do? What can the head of the class do that the starting apprentices can't? What can the master do that his students can't? What can his master do? What can the secret level 20+ probably-plane-hopping grandmaster that invented the damn thing, all the way up to its level 9 capstone maneuver, do that no one else can do?

In perspective it does seem a bit much :P
I should lessen it. Though I was intending to "start small". My only scale, however, was measured against gods... xD

At least, this is what I've come to learn after having started and not finished several disciplines, myself. I'm in the planning phase of re-doing one, however. This is my .txt file:


Level 1: Dishwasher. Potato Peeler. (Strike: Peeling Ten Thousand Potatoes)
Level 2-3: Prep Cook. Mise En Place. Equipment management. Stock making.
Level 4-5: Cook. Sauteing, grilling, poaching, frying.
Level 6-7: Chef. Organizing. Overseeing. Specializing.
Level 8-9: Dumb Gonzo ****

Mechanical Themes: Preparation Bonuses, Boosting/Serving Allies, Accruing Bonuses Over Time, Secondary Non-Combat Effects

Now, when I go to actually write maneuvers, I can look and go "Alright, level 4 maneuver. Better make something about sauteing a thing. I bet I could make the continual flips of a saute pan a metaphor for... accruing bonuses over time!"

"Level 6 maneuver? Well, I can make a maneuver about a Chef organizing his brigade according to their strengths and weaknesses, which can... give boosts to my allies!"

And so on. So, if yours read "Level 1: Alter perceptions of time.", then you could think "Alright, what are three to five ways you can alter the perception of time?" write those down, and make maneuvers out of them. Then, if it reads "Level 6-7: Move physically through time.", you can start writing out stuff about your future self going back in time to double-team-punch-flank with your present self, and stick mechanics to that, and so on.

Just an idea. And certainly not the only way to do things. But it's where I'm at, at the moment.
I can do that. I'm used to just feeling what I want and letting it out (Sometimes with the mindset "And let whatever anyone else thinks be damned!", to be honest. Usually because I couldn't really do any fixing since it was out and I was moving on. But yea...)
This is new territory so I don't know how to release it so some proper setting up is in order...

Time to go do some reading now that I know where to find some other works to compare with.