Adjusting Turn Undead after tweaking Con, undead, and undead HD

[TuggyNE]

Wow, this post took forever to write. Probably at least three hours of drafting.

I've been doing some more thinking about HP checks, and came to the conclusion that not only is the result of turning a lot weaker than damage (it's not even a save-or-lose, much less a save-or-die, just a save-or-gimp), but the check itself is too (because it works only when straight damage to that amount would as well, and otherwise does nothing). So I might bump the straight damage up a bit, and will definitely increase the HP check a lot.

It also occurs to me that I don't have any translation for bolstering at present. Not sure I need one, strictly, but it'd be nice. Maybe temporary HP?

So go to d8's or just more d6's? Or twice the number of d4's?

I'd actually work backwards. Find the average target numbers for each CR, then work backwards from that to get the XdY that turning should use.

First off, thanks for the much-needed bump.

But yeah, target is tentatively something like 50-80% of a group of CR -2 undead turned with modest optimization, and 10-40% of a group of equal-CR undead, both of those at full health.

For sake of simplicity; instead of doubling turn damage to turn with damage being at a 1/2 progression of d6s, why not have turning function as 1d6 per Cleric Level HP check, and destroying undead with half or less the HP.
That is to say, instead of doubling a thing that is at half progression, why not give full progression and half it?

I'm a bit light-headed at the moment, but what I think you're saying, and maybe I'm wrong, is that the proposal is that with a Turn Undead check, a Cleric can deal 1d6 + 1d6/2 Cleric levels damage to undead (with positive energy), or they may double that number, and compare it to Undead's HP and Turn any undead with HP equal to or less than that number (and Undead with HP equal to or less than half that number are destroyed outright).

Would it not be easier to have Clerics turn undead at 1d6 Hp per Cleric level, and have an option to instead simply deal half that number as raw Positive Energy damage?

I suppose; they come to roughly the same thing, though. (Although those specific numbers are about to be changed again.)

I agree with ChumpLump about that particular progression. You might get more/better feedback in the homebrew forum however.

Hmm, perhaps so. This might go over there soon, once I finish the brainstorming phase and get to working out the exact wording and such-like.

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1All right, new round of ideas. This time, suggestion 3 is that the turning check is 2d12 + 1d12 per Cleric level, or 1d6/level straight damage. (If the undead is hit by a turn attempt with HP amounting to half or less of the check result, it is destroyed instead of turned. This gives an incentive to try turning rather than damaging in many cases in order to destroy undead.) Turning resistance is multiplied by 5 for existing monsters and acts to reduce the check result (but not damage).

Suggestion 4 is similar, except 1d12+Cha + 1d12+Cha/level turning check. Suggestion 5 is even crazier: 1d20+Cha/level.

In this table, percentages after a slash are chance of destruction. All check probabilities are for full health, since turning proper should be done early in a fight to break up enemy formations. (Charisma, where it matters, is 16 up to level 5, 18 from 6 to 9, and 20 onward.)

Undead	HP	CR	Suggestion	3	Suggestion	4	Suggestion	5
			Level = CR	Level = CR + 2	Level = CR	Level = CR + 2	Level = CR	Level = CR + 2
Troglodyte zombie	26	1	17%	81%	0%	24%	0%	93%
Ghoul	13+10	1	32%	90%/5%	0%	56%	5%	96%/32%
Wolf skeleton	13	1	87%/17%	100%/81%	17%	100%/24%	55%	100%/93%
Owlbear skeleton	32	2	22%	81%	0%	31%	30%	98%/29%
Allip	26+10	3	35%	86%	0%	55%	68%	99%/38%
Ogre zombie	49	3	2%	37%	0%	0%	22%	93%/1%
Ghast	29+10	3	22%	79%	0%	28%	57%	99%/22%
Shadow	19+10	3	69%	97%/10%	5%	96%	88%/5%	100%/78%
Wight	26	3	81%	99%/26%	24%	100%	93%/14%	100%/89%
Vampire spawn	29+10	4	52%	72%	1%	99%/	91%/2%	100%/74%
Wraith	32+10	5	67%	95%/1%	10%	100%	98%/11%	100%/88%
Mummy	55	5	17%	65%	0%	62%	84%	100%/30%
Gray render zombie	138	6	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	10%
Young adult red dragon skeleton	123	8	0%	0%	0%	0%	35%	96%

I skipped conversions A and B, since they're not template-able, and none of the monsters presented except the zombies have been converted yet (so they're using their Core HP). The gray render here is a horrible, horrible outlier, but there you are: some monsters are still nigh-unturnable, but at least you can beat them down a bit first to make them easier.

Finally, I think a feat is in order:

Focused Turning [General]
Prerequisite
Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.

Benefit
You may increase your effective level for a turn or rebuke attempt by 2 by halving the range. This increase stacks with Improved Turning and similar effects, as usual.
Alternatively, you may increase your effective level by 4 in order to focus on a single target within the usual range: only that target is affected.