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    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightlawbliss View Post
    there is also the fact that an invisible creature has total concealment, and so you can't see them even if you spot them.

    ...Now that I look at Hide, Spot, Concealment, and Invisibility, the interaction is actually even screwier.

    According to Concealment, you can use spot vs hide (with relevant modifiers) to discover the square an invisible creature occupies. This agrees with the description of Hide.

    According to Invisibility... well, I want to say this rephrases the information from hide, but in plain english it says something entirely different:

    A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
    Spot agrees with this, although since it's in the PHB it's a lot less specific:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spot
    A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you.
    So taking Invisibility's excerpt piece by piece:
    1. Within 30 feet, you can sense the presence of an invisible creature with a DC20 spot check.
    2. If it's still, the DC is 30.
    3. If it's not alive and still, the DC is 40.
    4. +20 To DC to spot the location of an invisibile creature. From context we know that this is referring to the flat DC. So any living being's location is known with a DC50 spot, at most.
    5. We know it's not referring to the opposed roll, because (a) context is all about the flat roll, and (b) it would list +40 not just +20 if it were.

    So basically, a 5th level rogue can stand still with a wand of invisibility, but despite his +75 hide modifier, someone can see his precise location with a 50. In fact, once your hide modifier passes +40, you are less visible if you're visible, because people can't just point to your square and lob glitterdusts.