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Thread: Houserules: Tier 3, Simply

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Houserules: Tier 3, Simply

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    You don't need to ban any of the 9's technically. Off the top of my head about half are SOS/SOD stuff. Shapchange has a HD limit that makes the really scary stuff inaccessible till epics, The rest are various forms of summons or direct damage, (lol irrelevant) and all either have a creature call in type/limit that keeps the CR inflation down, or are subject to DM fiat on what comes through, (which with a non-idiot DM amounts to the same thing as a CR limit). The same DM fiat applies to Wish/Miracle technically, those too are just such annoying spells that it's far easier to ban them than to try and deal with them via fiat. Astral Projection just puts an ethereal copy of you on the Astral Plane so unless the campaign takes place entirely there it's virtually worthless since as soon as you need to actually do anything in the material plane you have to end it get up, go off and actually do something. It would probably be awesome to make permanent on a kingdoms messengers, or create a circle version of it for the same purpose. But as anything related to a campaign on any other plane it's nigh worthless unless i missed an exploit or something.

    The only way for 9's to break things to the point of beating stuff 11 levels up is an idiot DM that either doesn't employ DM fiat on the stuff he can to claw their power down, or that allows non-core stuff that would either give spells that are powerful enough for the job without innately allowing DM fiat, or non-core stuff that allows the effects of existing 9's to be pushed to levels way above what core allows.

    Like i said, i'm not saying banning 9's is a bad call, because they break CR appropriate encounters quite firmly. But the point they hit the wall is a lot lower if an idiot isn't sitting in the DM's chair.
    Fiend Folio: Zodar is 16 HD, Sunwyrm 12 HD. An abrupt jaunt wizard could defeat a CR26 Infernal with any one of these, or a CR 34 Phaethon. Most Abominations would be tricker since they're immune to most attack forms and have SLAs, plus no access to weapons dipped in god's blood and whatnot. I suppose you could Wish for some, but it falls outside the purview of the standard Wish uses.

    Lords of Madness: Overseer Beholder 14 HD, Urophian 12 HD. Any one of these four creatures could defeat a Behemoth (CR 18-19), Brachiasorous (CR 23), Colossi (CR 24-33), Devastation Vermin (CR 39-50), Primal Elementals (35), Gloom (25), Golems (21-25), Ha-Naga (22)... the majority of creatures in the ELH.

    Let's try core. Guardian Naga or standard beholder can defeat anything I just listed, besides the abominations, with Ghost Touch Weapon and incorporeality method of your choice. Actually, so could most forms, although some will take longer. Being a beatstick doesn't make one very resistant to alternate attack forms.

    There's no creature in the ELH that can kill a level 17 wizard because none of them wield Githyanki Silver Swords (Astral Projection from your magnificent mansion/demiplane, then Plane Shift to the material plane. Extra life!). Maybe one or two that have soul-trapping effects, I haven't compared the rules in-depth.

    Wish and Gate both have non-fiat uses (they say you can try improvising, or one of our standard effects...) and either will win a fight with over half the creatures in the ELH.

    At minimum, use Tippy's trick and make a scroll of Ice Assassin of your enemy.

    These are all discussed to death on these forums and known as the basic ways for wizards to break balance. There are others, but they're generally more complicated. Or involve Sarrukhs.

    Also, most optimized wizards will be Incantatrixes, Sevenfold Veilers, Halruuan Elders, Wyrm Wizards, Tainted Scholars, etc. and have those additional tricks up their sleeves.

    So yes: Access to 9s, be they wish, gate, miracle, shapechange, astral projection or Ice Assassin, can break nearly any encounter, especially CR-appropriate ones. Chain Contingency, Foresight, Time Stop, or Greater Spell Matrix can make doing so much easier. Hindsight breaks with metamagic. There are other tricks available to divine casters or psionics.

    It's possible, although not easy, to break the game with 6th level spells. But you can't do so nearly as badly, there are no extra lives or save game psions, etc., and the problem is manageable enough that a DM doesn't have to say "I ban half the 8th and 9th level spells in every book, plus half of all prestige classes designed for your class" to do it. These house rules are designed to be fast and simple, so I'm not going to comb through every spell in the game and vet them if I don't have to, and I don't have to, because I'm not making a system rewrite.

    Even a core-only wizard can effortlessly defeat a CR50 Devastation Beetle. There are plenty of ways to do it. The easiest being just fly, rain down damage of your choice, win.