Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
How has no one commented on this?
I think because the system appeared whole cloth over here, and kind of possess a +5 Wall of Text attack. I wrote it originally back in 2007, and have been gently tweaking it ever since.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
So, how to read: a ritual-user effectively has 3*level points of shifting abilities from their known list, each most likely at a max power of HD=level (the Martyr's self sacrifice cap or the likely max HD of creatures you find to sacrifice, though at low and high levels HD are more plentiful in livestock and big creatures). Assuming a proper rotation of resting for a Martyr or chaining sacrifices for a Ritualist, these should be up all the time, or for charged abilities have charges=level per day. Note that with -3 hp/level (and change) the Martyr is effectively a d6 class with the option to pay some cash to get more max hp for a few days.
The Martyr actually has to pay a bit more than that, because it's ritual level + the effective hit dice, so a 5th level ritual is 10hp minimum. But othe

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
In the general Ritual description, it would help if this was written a bit more mechanically. Start or title each paragraph with the appropriate tag (Sacrificial Hit Dice, some keyword for Sacrificial Hit Dice capacity of 3*level, Duration, Saving Throws). Duration should include a note that many rituals have hour/HD durations (I expect that when originally written this was not the case).
I added a General Terms section afterwards, which should hopefully help. And as of the update, almost all of the hour/HD durations are gone, if not all of them.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
*Pre-Edit: ah, right, all rituals are available for 1 day/HD, it's just that for some reason a ton of them also have effects that last 1 day/HD. Seems a little unclear since non-charged rituals basically have an extra day/HD duration that means nothing, and this caused me to disregard the Effect Duration. . . except looking at Spirit Manacle here, we have an Effect Duration of day/HD with the actual effect in the text clearly round/HD. New material/format changes may have caused that.
Hopefully the cleaned up Rituals make this easier to understand, but that duration line, despite the name (my fault, I know) always meant the duration of the Ritual, not of the effect. It was a downside of originally starting from spells, which use Effect lines, but don't have two separate durations. So, no-use rituals last 1 day/HD. Use rituals last 1 day/HD or until their uses are expended, whichever comes sooner. Please note though that use rituals die after the duration of the final use, not before.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
As noted below, there should be a general rule on range and targeting since it seems that many rituals lack this information. There should also be a mention of Spell Resistance, even if only a reminder that as Su abilities SR never applies (though a nod to some people's preference to X/magic transparency would be welcome).
This should all be in there, especially on the Martyr rituals where it was really lacking. That was one of the main goals of the update. Not quite sure what you're getting at with the transparency rules, though. There's not meant to be any here.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
I think I might be missing something very important: is there a minimum HD requirement for higher level rituals? My gut tells me this really should be a thing, though as I read the Martyr rituals I start to think they're intended to have the option of lots of lower level links and transfers and debuffs. I haven't read any Blood rituals yet, but any Martyr ritual that avoids the +ritual level surcharge on hp (say by not spending hp) is gonna get real strong.

On the other end, I see no maximum HD limit, making non-hp sacrifices dangerous. This is okay if you need bodies supplied by the DM but gold is cheap for Martyrs, see Fettered Mind, below. And personally I think there's a hole in the hp sacrifice: temporary hp are still hp and basically invalidate any mechanic that starts by taking damage no matter how un-preventable or un-redirectable it is. Just add a line that the damage bypasses temporary hit points and you're fine.

Pre-edit: finally noticed that the Martyr doesn't have a HD=level max on hp sacrifice like I must have assumed, it's just the same 3*level HD limit as everything else. That'll just be bananas.
Yes, currently 3 * level is the only upper limit on rituals. Granted, that was written before the Martyr class, so it was designed with creature sacrifice in mind, which meant the DM had to be complicit in handing over something truly bonkers. And the minimum HD requirement is the ritual level (which might not be high enough).

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
I find the Martyr's more active abilities quite underwhelming. It's obviously more of a set buffs and go class, but still. The stunning touch from Wash the Sins gives you hp burn you can't heal until you rest, even if they make their save, so using it even once is a massive cost that just doesn't seem justifiable. Remove Temptation comes on at a a level where any weapon you sacrifice will be worth obscene amounts of cash that you should never give up-I also don't see why they'd ever fail to create a ritual unless they were already at max capacity (you could just make a 1HD ritual and let the rest go to waste). Reversing Strike is your way to speed up rituals so you can react in combat, but since you have to convert damage exactly it's quite a ways out of your control. On the other hand, Healing Touch is apparently usable on self with no upper health limit so the whole party is full all the time.
Updating the Martyr class features is already on the to-do list. I'm not super thrilled by them at the moment, and the 1st level ability (Touch of Friendship) is completely useless and needs to be replaced.

Remove Temptation - The Martyr doesn't get to decide what the hit dice of the sacrifice are. The gold cost of the item does that for him. But the whole gold sacrifice has always been a problem, and I'm very tempted to boot it over to the variant rule post and let it stay there.

Healing Touch - It's only supposed to work on other creatures, actually. Looks like I don't have that clause in there. The unlimited slow healing doesn't really bother me though, it's something I've got all over the place in my various systems. Just saves the party the cash of a wand of lessor vigor.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
I'm pretty leery of the Ritualists at-will Entangle+Slow into Paralyze. Obviously it's there to make sure you can do a sacrifice and it's good that the brain-locked effect is all or nothing by releasing them on a successful save (though it could be a bit more clear that you do this after they've succumbed to the first effect), but that is still a really, really strong ability to have at-will with no cost. I'd let the first save grant immunity on a success, as with most at-will save or lose effects. As written it can't effect undead at all since it's mind affecting, just needs a note that undead immunity does not apply in addition to the altered effect.
It was at will so that the low level Ritualist had something it could do, in addition to the getting a sacrifice bit, because a lot of low level creatures are just boring and don't have the interesting abilities that rituals feed off of. I'll make the changes suggested though. In order to limit uses per day though, I'd probably need to create a second low level ability for the Ritualist in that case.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Immolator Apostate should list the damage of a medium fire for convenience. Cleanse in Fire seems useless unless you took Martyr to 9th for Reversing Strike to flash-cast it but the PrC is set for 7th level entry, and it also doesn't specify range. Even then it has the same problem as Wash the Sins in that using it even once docks your hit points for the rest of the day (possibly longer) in exchange for a single attack. Especially now that I've read the Martyr's ritual list.
Medium Fire it turns out is 2d6 a round, which is 1d6 higher than I wanted. I'll just write it into the text. Cleanse in Fire is poorly written, but it's actually a special ritual that gives you a fire burst attack, and is meant to be created via Self-Purgation. It needs to be reworked. It's also unlimited use.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Planar Animist is, as most HD based summons are, ridiculously broken. Even assuming you have to pay HD equal to the HD of the outsider (as written you only pay for duration so you can just spend 1 HD for anything, unless I'm missing a base rule somewhere that says higher level rituals have a minimum HD cost), that still lets you get three times your own hit dice in outsiders, each of which can very easily have spellcasting greater than their own hit dice (Gheale Eladrin and Trumpet Archon are the two favorite standouts, acquired here at 4th level rituals for ECL 11, also you should really specify how to round level=1/3 outsider's hit dice, since if it rounds down that means you can go to Planetars at ECL 11 instead). As much as I love a no-cost buffet that's a no-guilt summon instead of a calling, there's a reason the Planar X spells have huge costs.
Yeah, always knew this guy was a little strong. I'll have to revise it so it's relatively sane. Honestly, just switching it to Ritual Level = +1 per 2 hit dice probably would do it. That caps you at 14hd and under outsiders. And add in a clause I have elsewhere, which blocks the SLA cheese.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
I don't see why the Quietus can get Allips before Shadows when Allips are better in every way. I'd also like to see Spectres on there, and Devourers are creepy as heck so nice choice. As cool as it is to be able to create and control NightXs, it comes in 2nd right under the Planar Animist for overpowered minions. The spellcasting progression is pretty cheap if you use something to expand the list, but not really a problem. I like the idea that they could sacrifice one of their undead to power a ritual, possibly one for making a new undead, except that as creatures created by a class feature you can't sacrifice your own undead. Also, the Quietus's undead animation brings up another point I may have missed: is there a requirement anywhere that a living sacrifice be sapient? Because turning cows into Allips and hunting dinosaurs for easy NightXs is probably not what you intended.
Because it was meant to be a Greater Shadow. Hence the level restriction. And no, there isn't... which means you could turn some of the large HD but squishy animals into very interesting options. The NightXs come online at level 16 at the earliest, so I'm a little less bothered, especially as your DM needs to hand you a 21 HD+ monster to sacrifice. Game balance by that point is kinda hosed anyway.

I'm not aware of the class feature rule on sacrifices, since this system never existed before... so I'd say you certainly can.

Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Okay, that was several hours, I think I'm done for now. Obviously I favor the Martyr class, simply because it's wholly self-sufficient and this also makes it the most easily breakable. I find it's class abilities extremely restrictive as written and hardly worth using, but many of it's Rituals range from stupid strong to grossly overpowered. With a heavy dependence on the rest of the party running cleanup I'd expect this to perform as well or better than a heal/buff/disable caster in the same hands.

Chained Body and "Reflexive" Retribution in particular should appeal to people who like the sort of aggro control found in MMOs (or anime about MMOs, I'm looking at you Log Horizon).
As mentioned above, the Martyr class abilities are in dire need of a clean-up. They're almost unchanged since it was first written and it shows. Chained Body got cleaned up/nerf-batted in the big update, but Reflexive Retribution still needs a few changes, looking at it again.

I'll answer the Rituals portion of the post when I've got more time. Thanks for taking a look at this! Nice to finally have someone give it the once over :D