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    Ettin in the Playground

    Join Date
    Jun 2006

    Default Re: Tome of Ritual Magic [Alternate Magic System]

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarius View Post
    Nightwalkers are sentient, which makes it a little more difficult to hunt down an appropriate target - a player is looking more at outsiders or dragons in terms of monsters that are both sentient and consistently hit those HD requirements, and hunting those down is a little more difficult.
    That's a solid restriction then.
    [Target lines] It's been changed to be more in line with normal entries.
    [Summon monster rituals]I tried to set as many rituals as possible back to 1 day/HD, because otherwise they were just spells with more use difficulties. And glad that there wasn't anything hiding in the lists. I glanced over them, but never did go check all the monsters added via splats.
    Oh I didn't go over the splat stuff, just the core lists. Main here is BoED, checking lists 3, 6, and 9. SM3 has Coure Eladrin and Musteval Guardinal, that's incorporeal scouting and some magic missile spamming, 6 has the Equinal which is nothing special, 9 starts having problems because they dumped a ton of stuff on it. Moon Dogs are terrible in a fight but have Astral Projection and Ethereal Jaunt at-will, Firre Eladrin have 12 level cleric casting, and Ursinal Guardinals have 12 level wizard casting (compare to the standard Coutal's 9th level sorcerer casting). Owl Archons do have Reincranate SLA, and Sword Archons are rolling in Divinations. Monster Manuals don't have any real additions for Good SM lists, Fiend Folio's Movanic Deva's always been a bit nuts as written on SM7, and I found the Valkyrie in Tome of Battle for end lists.

    Considering how few Good creatures there are on the SM lists, a specific list for the rituals might be better, or a hybrid, since using specific lists cuts off a lot of lower level options you might want, like Hound or Lantern Archons. Say:

    Lesser: SM3 Good only+ Bauriar, Coure Eladrin, and Musteval Guardinal
    [medium]: SM 5 and 6 Good only+ Lantern Archon, Leskylor, and Equinal Guardinal (SM5 includes flying and single attack options as well as the Hound Archon)
    Greater: SM 7, 8, or 9 Good only+ Asura, Three-Headed Leskylor, Owl Archon, Sword Archon, Valkyrie and maybe Movanic Deva (FF, if you're fine with Hallow, Commune, and proper Raise Dead on tap)
    (Absent: SM8 Warden Archon [True Seeing 3/day] and Hollyphant [no save stun attack], SM9 Quesar [neutral alignment], the Astral Projector and the lv12 casters)

    That is, assuming you want it to feel like a summoning spell. Greater ends up extremely versatile, but still far less so than a normal SM9 which could get whole packs of the lower level options. And you're still comparing a Valkyrie or Leonal to 7 charges of Wail of the Banshee. If you want it more restricted, then I'd just cherry pick the well known and/or bland celestials:

    Lesser: Celestial Dire Badger, Coure Eladrin, Musteval Guardinal, Lantern Archon (Dire Badger from SM3 for fighting, Lantern is moved down a bit to match it's Improved Familiar friends)
    [medium]: Hound Archon, Bralani Eladrin, Equinal Guardinal
    Greater: Sword Archon, Leonal Guardinal, and Valkyrie (for chaotic representation)

    Edit: oh, hadn't considered the Protectar (Minatures Handbook), the littlest quasi-angels. Probably wouldn't show up on SM until 3, but could be appropriate for Lesser Divine Prescence, and take the place of the Celestial Dire Badger on the narrow version so it's all proper celestials.

    It also finally occurs to me that the restriction to only one active copy of any ritual means that you in fact cannot summon a herd of bison or a flock of hippogriffs, which significantly reduces that utility, and makes the whole thing a lot weaker and less awesome (reminiscent of the Astral Construct nerf, except this was there from the beginning so it's not a nerf). Does the one at a time restriction also apply to special class rituals, such as the Planar Animist's summoning, or the Quietus's undead? (presumably yes to the first and no to the latter). Class based rituals often have multiple forms but it's not clear how distinct they are for purposes of maintenance. Since the Planar Animist has Planar Rituals, I could argue that each summon is it's own ritual, or each creature entry, or at the very least each available plane.
    So made a fair number of changes, with the only area still outstanding being the Martyr base class itself. I'm also a little surprised at the love for the Martyr - everyone else who's tested/used the system (and I do mean everyone) has chosen to side with the Ritualist/Ritual Warrior instead as their option of choice.
    Well I haven't actually read the Ritualist or Ritual Warrior's rituals yet, but yeah I prefer stuff I can just use rather than stuff I have to kill for. I can gladly justify executing or even sacrificing an enemy soldier, but making all my main features rely on doing so constantly is too far in moral and mechanical vulnerability. Not sure I'd actually want to play a Martyr since it's more reliant on effective party-mates and I never trust anyone to pull their weight, but I certainly prefer it in concept. Good use of summons or Immolator Apostate would help with that.

    There's also the problem where even one Ritualist/Warrior rather darkens the whole party's alignment and makes a Martyr quite out of place.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2015-09-27 at 10:51 PM.
    Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
    A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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