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    DracoDei's Avatar

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    May 2007
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    Default Re: [3.5] Epic With Unlimited Challenge 3: We actually need three threads. For real.

    Things I need approval for and questions I have:
    A.) Does everything have to be on the myth-weaver's sheet itself, or even in one place? Due to what formats work best for what, I may end up with things spread between the myth-weaver's sheet and a Google-Docs spreadsheet (open to anyone with the link to COMMENT, but not EDIT). This is especially likely when it comes to magic items (due to the necessity to calculate the costs) and attack/damage (since there are so many possible combinations of sizes and weapons I can turn my melee weapons into that at least having cells I can adjust for each type/source of bonus will speed things along greatly).

    B.) Do I need to list all my class features on the myth-weavers sheet by name, or only the things that I had to CHOOSE at character creation? In other words for rogue, would just listing the Special Abilities (Such as Opportunist, Improved Evasion, Skill Master, etc), or would I need to list all the class features? This would slow me down noticeably if I had to copy all the names over, and I thing that if I actually had to put the full descriptions in it might overflow the character limit on "Other Notes".

    C.) In general what precisely has to be calculated/listed out for a character to be considered "complete" so it can get into the game? What can be left to be calculated when it comes time/left to be inferred from other things on the sheets? I heard some players discuss starting the roleplaying before all the mechanical i's were dotted and t's crossed. Despite having put many aspects of "real life" on hold to finish this up, I find that the task is complex (and tiring) enough I am concerned if I am going about it right and/or the quality of my optimization and flavor-creation-via-mechanics. Consider this a request for an extension, but with very little expectation it will be granted. So what I am really trying to get at is what areas I need to focus my efforts on, and how LITTLE of the magic item tinkering I can afford to do if I am to actually get into the game. I have been focusing on DECISIONS, rather than CALCULATIONS and other sorts of data synthesis that have no decisions about what the "answer" is, only how to best present the information for clarity, ease of initial writing, and ability to make edits later as necessary.

    D.) If basing an feature off of an item in the epic section of the SRD, we don't have to multiply by 10 afterwards, right? It matters for the Flight-Speed increase on my cloak/cape.

    E.) When bumping up caster level (divide by the old one, multiply by the new one), is adding a few more uses per day or some increase in the numerical bonuses "free" with that? I am raiding the Magic Item Compendium for item features in an OCD attempt to get something like my money's worth on my magic items. For instance if I have a Badge of Valor that improves my Inspire Courage bonus by 1, 3 times a day, can I make that 10 in the process of bumping up the caster level from 5 to 100?

    F.) Do we need to have a character thread and/or be doing stuff like listing out what we can do with which actions? Or is that just a tool for us and if it isn't ready by game start it doesn't matter that much?

    G.) If we have Adaptive Style, do we need to worry about what maneuvers we have readied at the moment of game start?

    H.) If we DON'T pick something, can we just do without it? Like say, the extra maneuvers I have free slots for, or the spells I can cast WITHOUT my Knowstones?

    I.) When a racial progression class refers to hit-dices (for instance, my flight speed is 15'*My Hit-Dice) is that only HD from the racial class, or total HD? ti makes a difference of about 7 fold in my base natural armor and flight speed.

    J.) The SRD says that not all Epic items get the x10 multiplier (for instance I was chargrinned to discover that caster level 21+ doesn't trigger it). OTOH I think I recall it being said in this thread that only the 200,000 GP limit DIDN'T trigger the multiplication? It is much too late for me to go back and edit a bunch of stuff to take this into account, but at least I can hopefully be more certain of my procedures as I keep moving forward.

    Requests for approval (including Magic Item abilities with weird cost calculations):
    1.) Need to be able to declare power attack, Expertese, etc as free actions even when not attacking, so it will effect my AoOs.

    2.) Two spells that are in keeping with my race. They let me summon clouds that I and my allies can see through without penalty, but others treat as normal fog.

    3.) Is 100M a reasonable base price for the ability to see into all coexistant planes for 300'? I based this on Shadow Walk and got a very large number even after some fiddling.
    Spoiler: My notes on figuring out this price
    5[spell level] x 100 [CL]*2000(base cost for Continuous) x 4 [to go from 1/round per level to continuous]*5[for ALL the coexistant planes, this WAS x10 which is where a lot of the problem comes in]*0.25[Because only SEEING into them rather than going there]*2 Unslotted*10[Epic]

    Note that the "Unslotted" multiplier is not included in the 100M estimate.

    4.) In a similar vein, is 2.56 M a reasonable price for reducing distance penalties to Spot by a factor of 16, assuming it DOESN'T stack with my draconic bonus to vision that does the same thing?
    Spoiler: How I arrived at this number
    (A magical +2 competence item costs 400 GP, compared to the 50 GP price difference between "tools" and "masterwork tools". So x8. This is a +14 better multiplier than a telescope, so IF I was being VERY conservative (which I am not) I will say that it should cost should ([14+1]^2) = 225 times as much, and then 10 for Epic --> 225*8*10*2000 = 36,000,000 seems like WAY too much, but I am going to leave it for now... maybe x16 should only count (1+3)^2 times better than x2, since it is 3 powers of 2 better? That would give 2,560,000(before *1.5 for a secondary function) which sounds much more reasonable, especially if it DOESN'T stack with the equivalent racial bonus I have (Should have if the class included it?). )

    Spoiler: My current backstory (is this acceptable in content and complete enough?):
    Timoci was originally a Goddess with the Community, Healing, and Protection domains. She was married to Pelor, and at that time Pelor did not have the Community or Healing domains. Her sympathy for various sorts of suffering was very great, and she came to desire to be more direct in her application of power, both out of a sense that as merely a source of power for the people actually applying divine magic/power she was not really worthy of the degree of praise she received, and out of a desire to actually experience the reward of helping the small and weak directly. She thus decided to incarnate.

    "Hmmm... I will need something quick if I am to be able to reach those who need me in at any given instance in a crisis. But I also don't want to attract TOO much attention. Ah... those Wing Dragons are quite swift, and they can take the shapes of many races. But... will such a vessel even be able to hold enough of my essence so that not too much that could aid the needy will be lost? And there are so many ways that the forces of destruction could target me. Yes, an alternate form of life-force may be just the thing; Deathless it is! Of course, if I need a little more than that I could always pour some of my essence into inanimate objects as well. There are a few mortals I could commission to make things of equal power, but why let anyone in on what I am doing more than I need to? Besides which I wouldn't want the power to simply be lost if it isn't necessary. It would be wasteful. Best to have a way to protect those bits of power from that rather intense way mortal mages have of removing magics... yeah, I have some ideas. Perhaps I can pop over to Boccob and borrow some of his references. I guess it depends on how much I have to reveal to him to get him to deal without deception.

    But the area a mortal can effect at any one time is so TINY. To be limited to be in one place at a time... that is going to really limit how much help I can be. More speed of action helps, but... AH! Distant manipulation and observation! Drat... I think a lot of the observational powers may have to go into inanimate things... how annoying."

    Taking a few centuries to arrange matters she set up the she passed off much of her power and responsibilities to her husband. The transfer of her clerics and worshipers to Pelor went smoothly, as did the additions to Pelor's power (the Healing and Protection domains...). She promised to meet up with him in person every so often, in addition to contacting him via something somewhat like the means that mortals who channel divine powers use to contact their deities.

    She did not go to extreme lengths to hide her deeds, just enough to only get parades in her honor, rather than worshippers.

    Her humility and sacrifice were eventually rewarded when she advanced through her hands-on experience to a level of power beyond divinity.

    Example Accomplishment: Rendered Polio extinct at least within a solar system. No-Sold all the attacks of the deities of disease on her allies while said allies beat on the deities until the swore binding oaths to bring no strain or variant of that disease nor alternate cause of the same general set of symptoms back into existence.

    Physical Description: Well she's a cyanotic wing dragon... she is aerodynamic and can alter her scale colors. Her alternate forms cover a huge variety of species, some of them currently extinct. Most of these are extremely plain and forgettable looking (for the species in question), but she has had reason on a few occasions to create a form that is striking or gorgeous. Naturally she has many ways of disguising herself, but for those occasions when she is putting extreme honesty ahead of humility, or others manage to see through her disguises she has various means of creating it might matter. She has no particular preferences as far as build or such, but will often use Half-Dragon variants of her forms when she feels the need for the mobility.

    Feeling the need for someone to share her mortal experiences she took on an apprentice in the form of a ooze she found trying to extract victims of an earth-quake without harming them, lifting what stones it could after seeping through cracks to try to stabilize the rubble and find out how the weight was distributed (not that it had any knowledge of such matters, a fact it mourned bitterly). It was having slightly more success keeping the victims properly supported to not further their injuries and squeezing in the right places to limit blood lost either by blocking the wounds like a bandage, or limiting blood flow like a tourniquet or some combination of the two, as it flowed them towards the healers

    She could regain her dietihood with a few centuries of effort, but sees very little to do so.

    999.) I am probably forgetting a lot of the questions that have occurred to me while I was waiting for the new thread, but I think that getting what I have here out there is more important than completeness. I may add a separate post even before you have replied to this, depending on timing.

    6.) Would a specially made +6 Ghost-Touch Crossbow (with other enhancements) be something my ooze cohort could use? I don't have any reason to TRY to use it for anything with much of an effect on the course of the game, but he will be out and about enough that he could get caught in the crossfire... what about melee weapons?

    7.) I assume the Massooze needs to have its character sheet reasonably complete? I am feeling the time crunch, and my need to cut my loses and replace my Leadership and Epic leadership feats.

    Timoci Protector of Many Worlds
    (Much better for magic items, better for skills, only place the vast majority of class features are listed.)

    Myth-Weavers Character Sheet
    (Only place feats and Mythoi/Excellencies listed at the moment)

    Character thread (None at the moment)

    Google-Docs spreadsheet


    Theme Song
    (No, I'm NOT a Boss, doesn't mean I can't have a theme-song!)
    Regular Epic
    Phileotheysia 5 / Swordsage+15 Swordsage +68 / Lord of Nine Blades 10 / True Master of Nine 2
    Telekinetic Bladestorm 5 (+95 Gestalt Theurge) / Gestalt Theurge 15 (Applied to Telekinetic Bladestorm and Phileotheysia) Gestalt Theurge +80 (Applied to Telekinetic Bladestorm and Phileotheysia)
    Eripmav LA 1 of 3 / Sorcerer 1 (+10 Mystic Theurge, +40 from Eternal, +48 Evolved Undead [1 block of 8 early on, then ever odd numbered Epic Level]) /Favored Soul 8 / Mystic Theurge 10 (applied to Sorcerer and Favored Soul) Chosen 80
    Chosen Tracks
    Sub-Track 1 (80) Warblade 20 / Wing Dragon CLASS 19 (+1 from sub-track 3)/ Rogue 28 (+2 from later in this track +4 from sub-track 3 = 35) / Swordsage +10 / Rogue +2
    Sub-Track 2 (80) Favored Soul 80
    Sub-Track 3 (40) Monk 2 / Paladin 4 / Crusader +5 (for at total of 20) / Bowsage 2 / Sohei Adept 1 / Empowered 20 / Wing Dragon CLASS +1 / Rogue +4 / Cloistered Cleric 1
    Eripmav LA 2 of 3 / Swordsage 4 / Crusader 15 Eternal 80 (All 40 casting improvements applied to Sorcerer)
    Eripmav LA 3 of 3 / Evolved Undead Deathless 19 ( MANY free picks of this spent boosting Sorcerer! [1 block of 8 early on, then ever odd numbered Epic Level] ) Evolved Undead Deathless +80
    Level totals(hopefully complete and in alphabetical order...):

    Bowsage 2

    Cloistered Cleric 1
    Crusader 20

    Eripmav LA 3
    Empowered 20
    Eternal 80 (casting improvement applied to Sorcerer)
    Evolved Undead 99 (actually Deathless, MANY free picks of this spent boosting Sorcerer! [1 block of 8 early on, then ever odd numbered Epic Level] )

    Favored Soul 98

    Gestalt Theurge 95 (Applied to Telekinetic Bladestorm and Phileotheysia)

    Lord of Nine Blades 10

    Mystic Theurge (PHB) 10

    Paladin 4
    Phileotheysia 100 (levels 6 to 100 are via Gestalt Theurge)

    Rogue 35

    Sohei Adept 1 ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ei-Adept-PEACH )
    Sorcerer 99 (Mostly via casting advances from Evolved Undead ["Fallen Magic"] and Eternal)
    Swordsage 97 (levels 87 to 97 are via Chosen)

    Telekinetic Bladestorm 100 (levels 6 to 100 are via Gestalt Theurge),
    True Master of Nine 2

    Warblade 20
    Wing Dragon CLASS 20

    Spoiler: Niche Rankings

    1) Battlefield Control: 2. AoOs that can effect teleportation, summoning and movement through co-existant plains such as Ethereal and Shadow. Each additional 15' of movement re-provokes. Tumbling is opposed check vs my own tumble skill (+10 if they are trying to move through my space, rather than just my reach). Can full-attack once per turn as an AoO. Infinite AoOs. AoOs are touch attacks and should do ~576 damage (~495 if utterly immune to sneak attack) each which might be enough that I might not use ALL of my chances for Stand Still and/or Trip, and certainly sounds high enough .
    Can also do at least one maneuver with arrows that infers with an opponent's movement.
    Spoiler: Damage estimate calculation

    4 to 24 = 4d6 base for gargantuan Spiked Chain
    300 Phileotheysia
    172 Charisma for strength x1.5 (Or is this still wisdom?)
    28 Insight Average for Epic knowledge Devotion.
    0 to 26 Furious Counterstrike
    0 OR 80 Instincts of the Hunted
    0 OR 17 Morale
    504 to 651 TOTAL if totally and completely immune to sneak attacks despite my ways around that.

    If fully vulnerable to sneak attacks (Note that this includes Undead):
    100 Craven (Works off of character level!)
    161 = 46d6 Sneak attack (this is a large enough number of dice I'm not going to do it as a range)
    765 to 912 TOTAL

    If half applies due to Piercing Attacks ACF of rogue I took or a weapon enhancement or whatever this drops to
    634 to 781 TOTAL

    2) Buffer: HOPEFULLY 1, but might be as low as 2 depending on how poor I actually turn out to be at building at this level compared to other people. I can increase your epic to-hit bonus by touch, give people extra actions at the cost of my own, surround 1 person with a whirling field of blades that provides a +Cha. Mod. (currently 115) shield bonus to AC and does 50d6 damage [Magic, Epic, to anyone adjacent to them, No Save (because the spell it is based on doesn't allow a save), No SR (because the blades are physical dagger-blades, it is just their motion that is telekinetic... and besides which I turned that into an Extraordinary ability). Will have ongoing Telepathic Bond and Status with all party members who wish it, and as long as you are within my senses and I can communicate with you you count as having cast Foresight on yourself for the mechanical effects. MANY MANY OTHER OPTIONS! (but unsure of the utility of a lot of them).
    Oh, and then there is Band of Brothers which lets all hitpoint damage, ability score reductions, negative levels, and probably a few things I am forgetting be equally distributed across me and all the targets. Basically Shield Other as a 10th level spell (No, not 9th, 10th) except for the fact that I have to renew it every round, and it usually doesn't distribute any harm I myself take.

    3) Curiosity: 2? Knows every Sorcerer and Cleric spell through Knowstones, can use Charisma mod in place of the usual modifiers for a bunch of skills. Many minor perks that will probably never come up. This sorta falls under Buffer, but I can shoot down anything incoming that would require a to-hit roll if you were trying to thread it through a small hole in a barrier... so it works on Fireball almost as well as it does on arrows.

    4) Debuffer: 3. Mostly incidental to AoOs, such as stopping a teleport, Stand Still feat (with Immunoresistant for Freedom of Movement), rendering incorporeal creatures briefly corporeal, etc. Can also debuff through maneuvers including using a bow (Iron Rain discipline for that last one).

    5) Dominator: 3 or 2. Well I CAN cast Heightened Dominate Monster a bunch, but if I do it will be more an act of mercy so we can hopefully let them live than it will be an attempt to be tactically effective. I suppose with my ability to emancipate undead and high charisma that I might be able to talk them into supporting us out of revenge or gratitude.

    6) Game Changer: 3. Wish and Miracle.

    7) Healer: Effectively 3 in combat, 2 outside of combat. Can throw Heal, Mass around of course, and I guess I might often be able to spare the Standard action to do that?

    8) Meat Shield: 2 Really should be a solid 1, but I don't have any particularly effective way of attracting aggro, and I don't know all the build tricks to make that happen. Still 37k hitpoints and a 95% chance of being missed whenever I have cover (Hint: Persisted Interposing Hand) isn't too bad.

    9) Melee Damage: 2 theoretically, probably 3 in practice. My AoOs are going to be doing low enough damage that I am probably better off going for Stand Still or Trip instead of damage. I can also surround a target for massive sneak-attack damage (24 attacks each with +31d6+100[Craven]) and have one or two ways of dealing Sneak Attack to things that would normally be immune to it.

    10) Mobility: 2. Flight speed 1,800 ft, At-Will Teleportation from magic item, 3 means of by-passing Dimensional Anchor/Lock, but one of them shuts down most functions of my boots, the other requires me to be following someone else's teleportation or other similar movement, and the third is just using Wish for that purpose.

    11) Party Face: 2. Maxed ranks in several social skills, bonus to avoid making things worse than when I started when using Diplomacy (only about 10 I think?), ~+115 charisma modifier.

    12) Ranged Damage: 3 I've got a bow, but it is mostly for ranged debuffing/BFC

    13) Sage: 2. Gather Information, Divinations, Knowledge skills. Can substitute charisma for Int when it comes to knowledge of cultures.

    14) Scout: 3/Special! Epic Darkstalker, maxed ranks in Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot. True Seeing, See Invisibility, and many bonuses to vision (Zoom, can see through smoke/fog/dustclouds/ink clouds) I can see into co-existant planes due to my helmet and have special abilities that mean I can hide as if I had cover as long as I am within a certain distance of an ally who is hiding (they might have to be using cover). Also get a few bonuses to Invisibility effects. Specifics available on request. Basically I might not be the first person you should send on a scouting mission, but I would be a VERY good choice for the second in a pair.

    15) Thief: 3? I guess I MIGHT be maxing out Slight of Hand just 'cause...

    16) Summoner: 3. Full Cleric and Sorcerer casting. Persisted (including via DMM) Summon Monster # for trap finding/spring duties a possibility. May also be making Intelligent Deathless, but those are going to be more for roleplay than anything else (giving away puppies that are just a skin, but are intelligent and can talk... so cute and they don't require any particular care! What little girl wouldn't want one! )

    17) Trapfinder: 2. See above about summoning, also can do Search/Disable Device, and Trap Sense as a 100th level rogue. For magical traps I have Greater Arcane Sight on my goggles I think?

    1 = The class is unambiguously one of the best possible classes to fill that niche effectively and efficiently. Example: Druid can Summon Nature's Ally spontaneously and has full spell progression, and is thus one of the best possible classes to fill the Summoner niche.

    2 = The class can fill that niche effectively and efficiently, it's just not as amazing at it as other classes that fill that niche. Example: The Ranger gets bonus archery Feats, Favored Enemy, and a few useful low-mid archery related spells, but he's not nearly as efficient or effective at dealing Ranged Damage as a Sorcerer with some blasty spells known.

    3 = The class can fill that niche, but it's not particularly effective or efficient at it when compared to most other classes that fill that niche. For example, the Monk theoretically has a lot of attacks and scaled unarmed damage, but in practice it usually sucks at dealing damage Melee Damage when compared to most other classes that fill that niche.

    4 = The class offers absolutely nothing to support this niche. There's really no way a Barbarian is going to reasonably fill the Healer niche using Barbarian class abilities.

    For the purposes of scoring on this rubric, the Person_Man (the creator of this ranking system would add the important caveat that a class shouldn't be counted as truly filling a niche unless they can do so effectively (ie, their raw numbers are high enough that you do whatever you're trying to so fairly well) and efficiently (ie, you can carry out the niche effectively without having to make an investment of other resources, such as Feats/magic items/PrC/etc, which are for the most part available to every class). For example, a Monk can theoretically fill the melee damage niche, but he does not do so effectively compared to most other classes, or it requires a serious investment of magic items and/or non-bonus Feats and/or PrC/multi-classing to do so effectively.

    To do(partial):
    Continue to refine Masooze cohort (and design level adjustment buy-off for cohorts... but not for this game)
    Magic items
    Double check with GM for anything that is especially novel.
    Continue work on page of common attacks by weapon type and size in googledocs spreadsheet.
    Double check old data removed from spreadsheet.
    LowISH priority: Improve clarity of mythoi and excellencies so the "Extra Purchases" get lumped in with the original stuff and maybe the formatting simplified.
    Very Low Priority: Copy stuff from Myth-Weavers to GoogleDocs Spreadsheet
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2017-03-31 at 08:12 PM.
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