Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
In my games,abilities that come online at level 17 considered to be non-existent.VERY few APs go that high.
Oh, I agree it's not a very good example, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek since you happened to mention morale bonuses.

Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
Yes,i did read said guide.Which really should be named"Guide to all things Path of War"
Heh, yeah it's pretty darn thorough. (And easily one of the top five PF class guides I've ever seen.)

Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
So,my problem here is:you get a +2 att/dam boost at level 1.This is ONLY such boost until level 17.
It seems to me your way of looking at Golden Lion maneuvers may be a bit myopic. Judging from quite a few other posts on this forum, I think you're far from alone in this, and it's not strange considering many of the basic parameters normally used to compare game options are simply too narrow to be applicable in this case. It's similar to the reason why many players fail to see how a conjuration focused God wizard can be so much more powerful than a blaster sorcerer, although more complex not nearly as clear-cut. My short and somewhat over-generalized recommendation is that you compare the benefits of GL maneuvers with those of other disciplines at a tactical party-wide resolution, rather than at a strategic personal (initiator) resolution (see below). I'd also recommend you don't judge the maneuvers in a vacuum, but imagine them used in combinations aiming to maximize their benefits (which quite a few GL maneuvers are also great for, despite having seemingly rather mediocre direct effects).

In more detail, I think there are two things which many of the best maneuvers in this discipline share and which differentiates GL from other disciplines:
  1. Tactics above all. Things at a strategic level (character build choices, daily resource management etc) have relatively little impact on the effectiveness of GL maneuvers, while things at a tactical level (like positioning/terrain, maneuver/spell/power/ability use orders, initiative orders, statuses of combatants etc) can have a huge impact. Characters/parties using poor tactics won't get much out of GL, while those using great tactics are likely to also benefit greatly. For example, the benefits of maneuvers like Hunting Party, Tactical Strike, Pyrite Strike, Kill the Wounded, Golden Swipe, Roar of Battle etc, can typically vary between really poor and absolutely awesome, and the benefits correspond unusually well to the quality of a party's combat tactics. I think this tactical nature makes GL stand out not just from other martial disciplines, but also from a vast majority of abilities in the game as a whole.
  2. Party focus. The initiator of a good GL maneuver is rarely the one who directly benefits the most from the maneuver's effect. For example, Pyrite Strike grants the initiator a mere standard attack with a +1d6 damage bonus, while it may grant every other party member a free AoO trigger. Tons of 2nd level strikes of other disciplines can grant the initiator much stronger direct benefits, but I dare say none can come even remotely close to match the potential overall party benefit of Pyrite Strike (it can grant more than seven additional attacks at full bab, enough to make several higher level swift-move-standard maneuver combinations of other disciplines appear pathetically weak). This party focus is also the primary strategic element of GL maneuvers, as party composition, party size and the members' builds effectively put caps on the potential of many GL maneuvers.


Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
You get +4 AC boost at level 3.This,again,does not improve in any way.You're not a bard on steroids,you're a bard bards laugh at.And you can't fall much lower than that.
My comment was meant in the broader context of party support, meaning "granting allies benefits which help your party win combats". And you don't need to provide allies with any numerical bonuses at all in order to be awesome in a support role.

(Slightly OT, but I also think PF bards are generally solid and versatile T3, and can be very strong with a bit of optimization. So I'd say you can indeed fall much lower than that...)

Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
Trolling action economy is nice...until we understand that crown maneuver here is Call to Action,which grants an ally a move action,except...it's a melee attack,ally needs to be adjacent and ally needs to be able to do something useful with said move action(and not get hit in the face from probably adjacent opponent).Which to me sounds like Coalition Victory from MtG,except you don't get to win the game.
So why name Call to Action the "crown maneuver" of GL action economy boosters? As with many of the stronger GL maneuvers, it's not great by itself and definitely not for all allies or in all situations, but it has the potential to be very powerful (at least for a 2nd level maneuver).

A few examples for primarily martial allies at various low/mid levels:
  • Allow your party's hard-hitting full attacker to move into position, granting your party a hefty damage boost (with the potential to take out a dangerous foe before it has been able to act at all in the fight).
  • Let your pummeling/pouncing/lancing supercharger ally move into charge position (for potentially huge damage boosts).
  • Put your AoO reach defender ally in the perfect position to stop enemies from getting to squishier party members.
  • Grant your grapple focused ally an additional grapple check (potentially allowing for completely locking down/tying up an additional foe).

There are tons of other good/great uses of course, but I think you get the point.

Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
And this is to me what Golden Lion is about.Lots of possibilities,but reward isn't good enough to care.But it has one of the best 2nd level counters in the game,so there is that.
And i guess +4AC boost is something way better than it sounds.
Golden Lion does indeed have lots of possibilities, but you'll vastly underestimate the potential reward if you don't change your perspectives. And yes, the reward will remain poor unless you get creative, start thinking in terms of party tactics, and get those involved on board and acting accordingly.

Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
Maybe i did look at it the wrong way.Who cares if discipline sucks as a whole if you only use that +4AC boost for the rest of your career?
If you assume the simple numerical boosts represent the best GL can offer your PC, you should of course only invest in those. But don't judge the discipline's general power potential based on that assumption. (And to a large extent, I think the weaker maneuvers of a discipline are actually irrelevant when comparing disciplines, as the flexible system means you'll virtually always be able to pick a better option, from the same discipline or another one.)