Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth View Post
I don't look at what man is as a mix 'n' match of randomly evolved traits, I look at what he is intended to do. Brain, hands, voice box, erect carriage, binocular vision, these are the marks of a thinking, communicating, loving, predatory race, and one that on those counts together knows death and morality. No beast displays this combination, and no beast acts and talks like us, despite every reason to do so.
1) All material evidence points towards humans being as much a product of evolution as all other animals. Tagging "random" and "mix'n'max" before "evolution" is irrelevant.
2) You have not demonstrated that what you think humans are intended to do is, in fact, what humans are intended to do. In fact, you have not demonstrated humans are intended to do anything.
3) The rest of your argument just shows you are oblivious to what my criticism is even about. You are correct that human reason is aware of mortality, and you are correct that all traits of humanity influence human reason. Where your argument persistently falls apart is that you have not demonstrated that awareness of mortality actually requires all traits of humanity. You merely assume that a creature aware of mortality must be equivalent to humans and then falsely expect them to be able of all things humans - when in reality we have reasons to believe that awareness of mortality is a much lower bar to pass and hence expecting that mere awareness of mortality somehow requires or entails equality humans is nonsense.



Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth
Are your “dumbest humans” born that way or made that way by a retarded education system? You might underestimate “dumb” people. And, born idiots probably don't understand death anyway which undercuts your argument.
1) Awareness of mortality in humans usually comes to being between ages 3 and 4, years before formal education begins, and even more years before a human is cognitively capable of all the stunts you claim as the essential divide between humans and animals.
2) The "dumb people" I refer to are either actual kids, or permanently stuck on the cognitive levels of kids due to well-known developmental disorderds. So yeah, they are "born that way".
3) "Born idiots probably don't understand death anyway"? I'm sorry, wasn't it supposed to be me who is underestimating "dumb people"? Also, that "probably" undercuts your own argument. It shows you believe "born idiots" don't understand death, just like you believe animals don't understand death.

Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth
Smart smart smart, animals are smart. So smart they can't figure out how to communicate “please don't send me to be put to sleep!” They just moo and purr and squawk.
What you stubbornly fail to grok is that those moos, purrs and squawks can be legible communication to humans, and that communication is a two way street. Humans who are fundamentally ignorant of or unwilling to decipher animal communications can not understand them, anymore than two humans who are fundamentally ignorant of or unwilling to decipher languages of each other can understand each other. You might as well be saying that mute people don't fear death, because they can't speak English and you didn't bother to learn sign language.

When a cat pushes its empty food cup to its owner and meows to get their attention, it is telling it is hungry, and any human who isn't completely ignorant of cats can understand that.

When a dog lays down and refuses to move when its owner tries to take it to a vet, it is telling it does not want to go to the vet, and any human who isn't completely ignorant of dogs can understand that.

When a snake hisses at you, it is telling every animal around it that if they don't leave it alone, it will deliver a poisonous bite, and all animals which aren't fundamentally ignorant of snakes understand that. In fact, a snake's warning hiss is such an universal signal that animals which are not snakes, such as cats, hedgehogs and owls, have been demonstrated to mimic a snake's hiss to tell other predators to GTFO.

And, of course, there's famous primates such as Koko the gorilla (misspelled its name earlier) who were taught human sign language, and when asked whether a thing is dead or not, answered that those things are dead in the sign language of humans.

Just the example of gorillas alone proves you are doubly wrong: we have animals which are aware of death and capable of learning human communications, yet which still demonstrably aren't capable of all the same things as humans are.

Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth
Where are their fig-leaf aprons? If they understood death they would understand sex, too. They would be like gods on Terra, knowing both good and evil. Animals are nothing like this. You can't separate knowledge of mortality from reason; reason is a mind looking down at itself, considering itself like an actor in a play, able to see what it is doing incorrectly, including morally incorrectly. Coyotes are coyotes are coyotes, they do not philosophise, they don't write sonnets, they do not send envoys to human beings to try to negotiate with them over hunting disputes instead of getting shot. They are cunning, not rational. Why are you so anxious to turn animals into people? Or, is it the other way around?
Nonsense symbolism coupled with irrelevant arguments. You are right that you can't separate awareness of mortality from reason, but you perpetually assume a much higher level of reason required for awareness of death than is actually necessary.

And that's why your ending rhetoric is almost hilariously backwards. You assume I'm trying to cast animals as people because you can't grok the idea of an animal which is aware of its death, yet still not equal to human.