Lots to unpack here, so here's my 15 minutes or less on the subject:
This and a number of other builds are part of a fair amount of TO and PO builds I've sat on for over a decade, only seeing use in actual games. Occasionally I saw a few of the concepts crop up later, but as with most of the community, I'm by no means original.Originally Posted by Jowgen
It is rather unfortunate though, because at the time I had a little more time on my hands and was considering slowly adding a number of other builds of mine from "back in the day" to that thread but was turned off by the moderation's movement of my posts (I like having them all in one place).
Originally Posted by JowgenOriginally Posted by weckaretc.Originally Posted by WhamBamSam
There seems to be this unfounded assumption that spellcaster levels somehow refers to class levels, rather than caster levels. Where does this come from? I don't know. The glossary is not entirely silent on this subject. There are entries for both "caster level" and "spellcaster", neither of which requires a character capable of casting spells/spellcaster to have its caster level equal to their class level in a spellcasting class (see PHB glossary for details). In fact, you will note that when class levels are mentioned, they are worded in a very specific manner, "the spellcaster's class level." Not, "spellcaster level."
Furthermore, I submit the wording of the Master Spellthief feat itself as evidence of its function. First of all, the feat grants three separate effects, thus has three separate sections. They are worded differently, so let's start by separating them and then note the distinctions:
It deals with levels in classes that grant (or advance) arcane spellcasting and specifically and repeatedly uses the word "classes" or "class" to make sure we understand the distinction. Note the specific use of the words, "levels of other arcane spellcaster classes," and not, "spellcaster levels."Originally Posted by Master Spellthief part 1 (stealing spells)
Here it clearly deviates from the language used in the first portion of the feat, specifying this time "arcane spellcaster levels" and not just levels in an arcane spellcasting class. The PHB glossary's distinct use of the words "spellcaster's class level" under the glossary entry for caster level is important here when assessing the feat's function. The words "class level" need to follow in order for something to be referring to levels in classes--as they do in the first section of the feat--whereas "spellcaster levels" is most likened to "caster levels".Originally Posted by Master Spellthief part 2 (spellcaster levels)
No one argues about what this does, but it's included here for completion to make sure you're all clear on the distinction between each of the feat's abilities.Originally Posted by Master Spellthief part 3 (armored casting)
TLDR: In the feat Master Spellthief use of the words "spellcaster levels" is equivalent to "caster levels", while use of the words "levels of arcane spellcaster classes" is equivalent to "spellcaster's class levels" in a class that grants arcane spellcasting.
Are you sure you haven't read one of my threads on the subject before? This is even part of the build I originally referenced you to.Originally Posted by Jowgen
Feats like Versatile Spellcaster and Uncanny Forethought don't grant spontaneous spellcasting and are not considered spontaneous spellcasting. They have specific language for their specific functions and specific trumps general. Reading it any other way is trying to convolute the subject. It's best to read the rules in the simplest manner possible.Originally Posted by Anthrowhale