Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
No, I think we might still disagree.
The difficulty with saying that 'known spell', 'spell you know', and 'spell known' differ is that you need a clear rule for the semantics of each one. Building up that semantics without rules support feels like creating house rules to me. In normal english, these are equivalent and I don't know any formal statement that they differ.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
scribe scroll allows you to create a spell you know ('You can create a scroll of any spell that you know' and 'Most of the time, they [item prerequisites] take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator)'
Agreed.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
you must additionally prepare the spell if you are a prepared caster (or, using the DMG's strict wording, you must have prepared the spell unless you are a Sorcerer or Bard, in which case knowing the spell is enough);
I disagree here. My reading is that scroll-making rules implicitly expand the scope to allow prepared casters to make scrolls.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
as an alternative to the knowledge requirement, you can obtain 'access through another magic item';
as a further alternative to the knowledge requirement, you can 'access through another... spellcaster'.
Agreed.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
In your example, Cleric A cannot fulfill both roles - he or she is not 'another... spellcaster'; he or she is merely 'the item's creator'.
I'm ambivalent here. It's not normal english to have 'another' refer to the first agent, but allowing that as a possibility when another refers to a role rather than a specific agent is allowable. "To fly the plane, you need a pilot and another acting as a navigator." Can the pilot act as a navigator? Maybe yes, if they have the additional skills/knowledge. Here, 'another' is referring to roles which could possibly be filled by the same agent.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
I recognise that we might not agree on the above, so what about the Glyph example I quoted earlier?

Spell Glyph: You can store any harmful spell of 3rd level or lower that you know. All level-dependent features of the spell are based on your caster level at the time of casting the glyph.
I'm not sure what to think. Spells are often as-written broken. Consider False Vision which is a 40' radius emanation with range touch. Since range constrains area of effect that's pretty broken. My best guess would be that when said 'know' they really meant 'know or prepared' as I'm currently understanding scribe scroll.
Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
I think there really are multiple uses of 'know' in the context of spellcasting in D&D, and it is often used in an imprecise manner:
  • there is the ordinary usage (which I say encompasses all spellcasters, and which you say encompasses only arcane spellcasters);
  • there is the 'known spell' definition in the glossary of the PHB (which I think is in turn only used in the definition of 'spell completion item');
  • there is 'spells known', which is used by Sorcerers/Bards and similar classes.
It's not enough to admit that language is loose. (I agree---it's easy to imagine edit errors if 'known spell' requires more than a consequence of learning a spell.) We need to be able to consistently answer questions. For example:
  1. Can a Hathran use Rashemi Spirit Magic to cast any Cleric spell?
  2. Can a Hathran use Rashemi Spirit Magic to cast any learned Archivist spell?
  3. Can a Cleric use Versatile Spellcaster to cast any Cleric spelll?

Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
Even though we disagree about the above, I presume you agree that some Divine spellcasters (e.g. Favoured Souls) absolutely 'know' spells (that is, the PHB definition of 'known spell' is not absolute)?
Right---that's a special case.

The 3.0 Hathran and 3.25 Durthan quotes do not clarify for me.

The 3.0 Hathran suggests that 'arcane spell she knows' and 'divine spell on her spell list' can not be consolidated as 'spell she knows' (inline with my understanding).
However, it makes it clear that the intent was allowing any divine spell on list (inline with your? understanding).
However2, the rules for "Place Magic" and "Rashemi Spirit Magic" in the 3.5 Hathran incarnation are clearly contradictory, since "Rashemi Spirit Magic" says: "...even if it is not on the same spell list as the substituted one." while 3.0-3.25 "Place Magic" only allows spontaneous casting within type (arcane or divine).