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Thread: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

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    Halfling in the Playground

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    A bit of a delay in responding (work has been hectic).

    First, our discussion about 'Scribe Scroll' and similar feats is probably a red herring. From page 215 of the DMG:

    Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

    A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item (such as a scroll) or one charge from a spell trigger item (such as a wand), if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

    It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary, such as if one character knows some of the spells necessary to create an item and another character knows the rest.

    If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. (It’s generally sensible, although not mandatory, for the highest-level character involved to be considered the creator.) The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

    Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat). When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two. For example, the prerequisites for a ring of three wishes are “Forge Ring, wish or miracle,” meaning that either wish or miracle is required as well as the Forge Ring feat.

    That is, when 'Scribe Scroll' (or similar feats) state you can 'create a scroll of any spell that you know', they are really just referring to these prerequisites. I think the passage above also addresses your comment about one person fulfilling the same role (it refers to multiple 'participants' and 'characters', not roles); however, again, I think we have moved beyond relying on the item creation rules now.

    With that in mind, I maintain my earlier position that D&D uses language loosely, including in relation to characters 'knowing' spells. As noted above, 'scribe scroll' (and similar item creation feats) use the term 'spell you know' to in fact refer to the DMG item creation rules.

    I've already mentioned Glyph of Warding, but I'll repeat it below for the benefit of others:

    Spell Glyph: You can store any harmful spell of 3rd level or lower that you know. All level-dependent features of the spell are based on your caster level at the time of casting the glyph.

    Additionally, Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine, p 80) has similar wording:

    When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you’re using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he’s casting. Because you’re using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn’t change.

    See also Midnight Metamagic, from Magic of Incarnum:

    Benefit: Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.

    Page 6 of the text plainly envisages Divine casters choosing Midnight Metamagic.

    There are also other feats (that do not require arcane pre-requisites and are plainly intended to apply to any sort of caster) that similarly refer to knowing spells (e.g. Innate Spell and Chaotic Spell Recall).

    EDIT: See also Eye of Horus-Re (from Player's Guide to Faerun):

    Spells per Day/Spells Known: Beginning at 2nd level, when a new eye of Horus-Re level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in cleric. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. This essentially means that he adds the level of eye of Horus-Re to the level of cleric, and then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

    The entry requirement is 'Able to cast 3rd-level divine spells', and the fluff text says 'All eyes of Horus-Re are clerics of that deity, though some have paladin levels as well'.
    Last edited by Oblivionsmurf; 2019-08-31 at 09:48 AM.