Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
I mean, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't believe many others are willing to go for it, losing 9ths is a big No No for most of the playground.

Thinking on it, the Black specially seems almost strictly superior to a Wiz 20...
This is my issue, Black are strictly better than a 20th level wizard in every way; saves, casting, AC, HP, skill points (I guess Wiz 20 wins in max skill points per skill though depending on the skill Black's ability bonuses make that moot). I just can't see how it is fair to play an out of the box black compared to a wiz 20. Then again at level 21 wiz now has epic spell casting which arguably trumps Black. So I am stuck between +4 and +5. I will go with +4 LA just because this is an edge case.

On the other hand I think the White is well balanced at +5 LA, it doesn't have enough to clearly be better than a Red at the same ECL so I think it is fair for it to also get 9th level casting by 20.