RPGA: Disturbing 4E revelations!

[DoomHat]

I recently went to an 4E RPGA event at my local geek emporium. While participating, something stuck me as odd. Only one other player, out of the 6 of us, seemed to have any interest at all in the actual Role-Play element of the RolePlayingGame.
For example, I find it’s normally pretty easy to catch on as to what race and class any given person is playing, normally. Most players seem to delight in their pretend persona, and take every opportunity to declare actions characteristic to their idiom. The dwarf rouge is casually slipping pickpocket items into his beard, the dragon born paladin is throwing platitudes to Bahamut in with every other sentence, and so on.
There was none of that there. I had to outright ask (almost demand) to know what everyone’s class and race were. But truth be told, there isn’t just a whole lot of room for characterization in a prewritten adventure. The railroad is without question, and takes precedence over all things.
And then it hit me. All the (many) weird design choices I’ve been thinking about having to circumvent whenever I think about running a game of 4E, all fit perfectly into the style of play I saw at the RPGA. That style being, more like a wildly elaborate board game then an rpg.

I’m crushed! I’ve wasted nearly two hundred dollars on a role playing game that simply isn’t meant for role play…

I don’t want this to turn into a flame war, but… yeah… not happy.

*EDIT*
I now find (or I found not more then a page into this thread) that my concerns were by and large unwarranted. I recognize its possible to RP using effectively anything. At the heart of my concern was the idea that WotC might have designed 4E with the RPGA style of play firmly at heart (a disturbing prospect).
However I have been assured by the fine people of the forum that it is not the system that is to blame, but craptacular showcase modules.

Thank you all for your insight and reassurance. =D

[JaxGaret]

I don’t want this to turn into a flame war

Truer words were never spoken.

[Kyace]

It's my understanding that 4E's fluff is completely malleable while the Crunch is supposed to keep it fun for everyone. The same character sheet and powers could be role played into several distinct characters, refluffing the powers as needed. The game seems to be meant to allow combat then 'get out of the way' for role play parts.

It's likely that the characters' crunch didn't give the players anywhere clearly defined to start from and the players didn't take the effort to role play beyond 'mildly good adventurers on a quest'.

IMO, at least.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I’m crushed! I’ve wasted nearly two hundred dollars on a role playing game that simply isn’t meant for role play…

This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.

Trust me when I say that you can run a perfectly normal RPG using 4E. People who liked to RP in 3E, 2E or 1E still RP when playing 4E; there's no rule against it.

Probably what you ran into is a bunch of RPG newbies. 4E has been widely touted to be a great "starter RPG" and if that is to be believed it would make sense to see many new players at mass events like an RPGA game. And RPGA modules aren't particularly well known for flexibility of plot.

I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

[RebelRogue]

The players supply the roleplaying, not the system. Simple as that!

[JaxGaret]

I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

I'm curious about this as well. It wasn't elaborated on at all in the OP.

[Rutskarn]

I really don't see your point of view.

Fourth Edition has "RPG" on the cover. Fourth Edition has some flavor details to get things rolling. What else do you need to role-play?

Are you saying the flavor is unsuited for role-playing? That doesn't really make any sense to me. Within the body of your post, you yourself contain examples of ways the flavor details could come into a vibrant, well-rounded character. Besides, one does not need too many details of race or class to create an interesting character--at some point, even in the most colorful of settings, individual creativity must take the reins.

Are you saying that the setting does not encourage role-playing, thus leading to the unfortunate scenario above? This depends much upon the group you play with, I suppose, but I would guess that any random 4.0 group is just as likely to role-play as 3.5 groups.

I think you may be reading too much into your experience.

EDIT: I have experienced my first ninja'd moment. This place feels more like home than ever before.

[RTGoodman]

This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.

The players supply the rolesplying, not the system. Simple as that!

Man, you guys always beat me to answers...

Yeah, that, basically. Don't blame the system - you can just as easily roleplay in 3.x, 4E, GURPS, SWSE, Gunslingers & Gamblers, or any other system you can think of. It's the PLAYERS, not the GAME.

(This, of course, is probably going to end up locked by page 3...)

[DoomHat]

This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.

Trust me when I say that you can run a perfectly normal RPG using 4E. People who liked to RP in 3E, 2E or 1E still RP when playing 4E; there's no rule against it.

Probably what you ran into is a bunch of RPG newbies. 4E has been widely touted to be a great "starter RPG" and if that is to be believed it would make sense to see many new players at mass events like an RPGA game. And RPGA modules aren't particularly well known for flexibility of plot.

I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? There’s no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?
Also, powers. I like powers, they add a bit of variety to what the players my chose to do in the course of a round besides, “I hits it with mah great sword”. But they also kind of handcuff players. What if the rouge wants to try and trip the minotaur as it charges the fighter. You got a power that knocks a target prone? No? Too bad.

I’m not saying it’s impossible to RP using 4E, no more then it is impossible to RP with CandyLand. But neither do much to help.

[Keld Denar]

Just like you said, its an RPGA event. Its not a standard home game style D&D event. Its part of WotCs marketing arm. I know, I've participated in RPGA Living Campaigns as player, DM, and co-author for about the last 8ish years now, since the birth of Living Greyhawk.

Now, I can honestly say I'm rather disappointed in LFR, the 4e vehicle of the RPGA, in that its modules are MUCH more linear than LG ever was, and currently includes MUCH less RP than LG ever did. Some of the best RPers I've ever met, I met though the RPGA, and to this day, I still remember a few of the most memorable characters and players.

I can see where you are coming from. LFR does end up feeling like an elaborate board game, or even an MMORPG, or at least convention play does. This is primarily due to time constraints on convention play. If you sit and RP for 3 of the 4 hour alloted time slot, you won't accomplish very many of the scenario goals, many of which are combat oriented. My recommendation to you if you choose to keep playing RPGA games, is find a group of 5-7 people and schedule regular "home" games. Rotate who judges the module so that everyone gets to play, and play in the comfort of someone's living room or basement. That way, you don't have the time contraints associated with tournament play, and can relax and RP the living daylights out of the mod as you wish. Thats what we did in LG when mods were "investigative" or "RP-intensive". Mods that are "combat intensive" were the ones we'd typically play at organized game days and conventions.

You'll find that that greatly enhances your RP enjoyment of the game. Best of luck!

[JaxGaret]

Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? There’s no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?

There's also no skill for walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time. Imagine that.

Also, powers. I like powers, they add a bit of variety to what the players my chose to do in the course of a round besides, “I hits it with mah great sword”. But they also kind of handcuff players. What if the rouge wants to try and trip the minotaur as it charges the fighter. You got a power that knocks a target prone? No? Too bad.

Page 42 of the DMG.

I’m not saying it’s impossible to RP using 4E, no more then it is impossible to RP with CandyLand. But neither do much to help.

At least you didn't say Chutes & Ladders. Not very original though.

[Dervag]

Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? There’s no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?

You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

In some ways, I wouldn't be surprised if 4th Edition is objectively not as good at supporting roleplay as 3rd. But I would be equally unsurprised to find out that there are other ways in which 4th is better than 3rd. But because you're used to 3rd, a lot of people have gotten used to considering the things it makes easy important parts of your roleplaying, and things that it makes hard to be less important.

[DoomHat]

At least you didn't say Chutes & Ladders. Not very original though.

Well, if you think about it, Rping a game of Candyland could be a hell of a lot of fun. I mean, you have a clearly established setting, with interesting terrain a variety of NPCs to met along the way.

Also I relent. My point is silly. But I feel a lot better all the same.
Ring the bells, dance in the streets, for this day, an argument was won on the internet.

[Keld Denar]

Just for further clarification people, the OP is refering to RPGA (RolePlaying Gamer's Association) event. Check out www.rpga.com for more details. His complaints are primarily with the RPGA campaing Living Forgotten Realms (LFR), not with 4e in general.

Just thought I'd point that out, since most people seem to be critiquing 4e in general, rather than LFR and RPGA tournament play specifically. Oh, and it irks me when people post a bunch of crap that wanders off topic because they only read 1/2 the OP before launching into their own propaganda laiden anecdotes. [/rant]

[Inyssius Tor]

I will point out that most, if not all, of the modules so far designed for 4E, including roughly ninety percent of the Living Forgotten Realms modules I have seen, are utter rubbish. In addition to being designed specifically to facilitate this viewpoint--that is, they fail catastrophically in both inspiring enjoyable roleplay and showcasing the manifold ingenuities of the 4E combat system.

Also, in my experience, RPGA games in general are rubbish; the modular nature of the games, the over-wide player base (and utter lack of, um, screening), and what passes for a disjointed and one-size-doesn't-really-fit-all metaplot all combine with two effects.
1. They produce a much greater chance that you'll end up with, um, not the kind of table you'd want for your home game, since in many cases if they could get a home game they'd be doing that on a Saturday night...
2. They produce characters of a thoroughly lackluster nature. You really only have two choices, unless you're a true master of your art. You can play something like you normally would, which--with the so-so DMs (used to running rubbish disjointed modules with ever-circulating players/characters) you may end up with, and the rubbish modules, and the okay players (who probably don't know you), and the ever-circulating player base (which hasn't met your character), and the likelihood that you'll be playing more than one character (since this one didn't really get anywhere)--with all of that, your hero will stick out in their minds like an invisible polar bear in a snowstorm on a white background. Or you could play a very loud one-note character, which is more fun than the invisible-stalker shtick and will actually be remembered and referenced by the other players. You generally get a lot more of the first kind than the second kind, and the quiet guys often drop out after a couple of weeks anyway.

Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.

So: again, this is my experience only. IME, YMMV, EtC.

[DoomHat]

You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

In some ways, I wouldn't be surprised if 4th Edition is objectively not as good at supporting roleplay as 3rd. But I would be equally unsurprised to find out that there are other ways in which 4th is better than 3rd. But because you're used to 3rd, a lot of people have gotten used to considering the things it makes easy important parts of your roleplaying, and things that it makes hard to be less important.

But that's just it, I've never really played a lot of 3.X. I think I have a 3.5 players handbook gathering dust somewhere or other, but that's about all.

[Thurbane]

The players supply the roleplaying, not the system. Simple as that!

True, but some systems lend themselves to RP far better than others.

For instance, if the system permits you to sink resources (skills, feats, wealth etc.) into an aspect of your character that has no combat purpose, it can make it easier for some players to help flesh out their character's personality.

[Keld Denar]

Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.

Actually, you hit it fairly squarely on the head there. The wide player base coupled with the narrow module goals plus the typical 4-5 hour time constraint can turn Living Forgotten Realms into Living Forgotten Meatgrinder.

To remedy this, take my suggestion above. Find some people that you enjoy playing with. Take turns running the modules. Spend as much time on character developement and RP as you choose.

Just don't be disappointed if you go to a convention or similar and people get mad at you because your character spent 2 of the alloted 4 hours "developing" yourself, and the rest of the table missed out on gold, xp, and items because they couldn't finish the module. Thats the other side of the coin. Courtesy and all that jazz.

[DoomHat]

I will point out that most, if not all, of the modules so far designed for 4E, including roughly ninety percent of the Living Forgotten Realms modules I have seen, are utter rubbish. In addition to being designed specifically to facilitate this viewpoint--that is, they fail catastrophically in both inspiring enjoyable roleplay and showcasing the manifold ingenuities of the 4E combat system.

Also, in my experience, RPGA games in general are rubbish; the modular nature of the games, the over-wide player base (and utter lack of, um, screening), and what passes for a disjointed and one-size-doesn't-really-fit-all metaplot all combine with two effects.
1. They produce a much greater chance that you'll end up with, um, not the kind of table you'd want for your home game, since in many cases if they could get a home game they'd be doing that on a Saturday night...
2. They produce characters of a thoroughly lackluster nature. You really only have two choices, unless you're a true master of your art. You can play something like you normally would, which--with the so-so DMs (used to running rubbish disjointed modules with ever-circulating players/characters) you may end up with, and the rubbish modules, and the okay players (who probably don't know you), and the ever-circulating player base (which hasn't met your character), and the likelihood that you'll be playing more than one character (since this one didn't really get anywhere)--with all of that, your hero will stick out in their minds like an invisible polar bear in a snowstorm on a white background. Or you could play a very loud one-note character, which is more fun than the invisible-stalker shtick and will actually be remembered and referenced by the other players. You generally get a lot more of the first kind than the second kind, and the quiet guys often drop out after a couple of weeks anyway.

Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.

So: again, this is my experience only. IME, YMMV, EtC.

Just for further clarification people, the OP is refering to RPGA (RolePlaying Gamer's Association) event. Check out www.rpga.com for more details. His complaints are primarily with the RPGA campaing Living Forgotten Realms (LFR), not with 4e in general.

Just thought I'd point that out, since most people seem to be critiquing 4e in general, rather than LFR and RPGA tournament play specifically. Oh, and it irks me when people post a bunch of crap that wanders off topic because they only read 1/2 the OP before launching into their own propaganda laiden anecdotes. [/rant]

Most helpful posts ever. My main concern, and reason for making this thread, was the worry that 4E was designed with the RPGA specifically in mind. I now see that was largely unwarranted.

Eh, heh... Uh, sorry for wasting everyone's time a guess?

[Artanis]

True, but some systems lend themselves to RP far better than others.

One word: Exalted

[DoomHat]

One word: Exalted

Another single word: Agreed.

*Edit* Also Mutants and Masterminds looks like it's got a lot of potential.

[Thurbane]

One word: Exalted

I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?

[DoomHat]

I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?

Characters are start off so obscenely powerful that combat is often more or less incidental. Only one ‘class’ (for lack of a better term) out of five specializes in any form of fighting whatsoever. The shear mass of non combative abilities powers and skills makes it almost impossible NOT to put some thought into your character's, background, personality, and how they interact with the world at large.

We are now miles off topic. Though this would make for a great new thread in it's own right.

[Artanis]

I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?

Its setting ties into the characters a lot more than DnD, for one thing. In DnD, the setting is just where your character comes from, but in Exalted, the setting is in a situation that has molded your character into what it is, and that situation is both due to and the cause of the way in which your character became an Exalt, a Chosen of the Gods.

Mechanically, there's also "stunt bonuses". You get bonuses on rolls for good descriptions of what you're doing. Saying "I whack it with my daiklave" does just that, but a vivid description of how you charge the enemy and scythe through a stone column to get to the foe behind it is going to get you a bonus on the attack and some Essence (mana, basically) back.


I honestly can't think of ways it's worse for RP, though somebody with more knowledge of the systems in question might know better.

[BardicDuelist]

Honestly, I'm going to have to chime in with everyone else that the game does not make people RP or not RP. Hell, my group RPs when playing Zombies!!!

[DoomHat]

Honestly, I'm going to have to chime in with everyone else that the game does not make people RP or not RP. Hell, my group RPs when playing Zombies!!!

You aren't paying very close attention are you?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What is your overall point? That RPGA stifles roleplay? That 4e stifles roleplay? That there isn't enough crunch to back up important fluff (for instance, your Kordian cleric example)? I'm unsure as to where we're supposed to be going with this?

[Tsotha-lanti]

You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

Seriously. The thing that's struck me since the advent of 3.0, especially online, (and mostly compared ot experienced read in Dragon and other, non-D&D fanzines and on the sites of old players of RuneQuest), was that the majority of players seem to have some weird difficulties going outside of the rules, which is why they seem to feel the rules need to cover everything.

I started out on red-box D&D, and you can bet your ass there were no rules for disarming, tripping, bull-rushing, or anything of the sort. There were rules for hitting things, and there were even a few spells. Anything and everything beyond those, you made up yourself, and it worked out nicely.

The same was true for RuneQuest (and still is, really). You have rules for disarming and bad rules for grappling, but anything more complicated - like knocking your opponent into a fire, or off a cliff, or whatever) was a matter of improvisation.

It's a paradigm-shift between 3.5 and 4E, sure, but to say that the lack of specific rules for every single thing is more restrictive than having rules for every single thing is silly.

And the notion that the system itself has any bearing on how much or how well people roleplay is just crazy. Certainly, the game may develop a reputation as being all hack-and-slash and no roleplay, but if 4E has any such reputation, it's inherited it from (A)D&D, which has always been most famous as the pre-eminent hack-and-slash, dungeon-crawl, loot-hauling RPG. (A matter of perceived prevalent play-styles rather than the system, obviously.)

Edit: Also, yes, different systems do support different play-styles, which may encourage players to play a certain way. I have a hard time imagining anyone playing HeroQuest as a hack-and-slash game. The game uses the exact same mechanic for combat as for any other challenge, and you can create perfectly valid characters with absolutely no actual weapon or combat skills, who can haul their weight in any and all scenes. (Being able to use any one skill in a scene is just a matter of convincing the other people at the table that it makes sense.)

[DoomHat]

What is your overall point? That RPGA stifles roleplay? That 4e stifles roleplay? That there isn't enough crunch to back up important fluff (for instance, your Kordian cleric example)? I'm unsure as to where we're supposed to be going with this?

That there isn't enough crunch in 4E to back up important fluff. But I've relented. Several times up to this point. If a mod wouldn't mind bringing a lock? I'm pretty sure we're done here.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'm pretty sure we're done here.

That's not how forums work, fortunately. You ain't King of the Thread.