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    Default [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    This just struck me. Since in oD&D-3.5D&D Evil and Good, along with Chaos and Law, are supposedly eternally equally balanced in the multiverse, does that mean evil clerics and paladins need to constantly worry about "falling" from the side of evil?

    I know traditionally it has not been played out like that in fantasy media, but again in D&D Evil and Good are supposed to be two equal and balanced forces.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Yes, of course. A Paladin who does not retain their alignment loses access to all of their powers, whether they are a Paladin of Honor, Freedom, Tyranny, or Slaughter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Evil gods have unbreakable tenants just like their do-gooder counterparts. They're often not seen, though, as their worshipers are mostly bloodthirsty psychopaths who revel in the thought of fulfilling their god's need to have every sacred pool desecrated with their followers' bodily fluids.

    But I digress. I'd say that yes, evil clerics and paladins need to worry about displeasing their god as the good pillars of D&D society. Take a look at Lolth. It is easy to lose her favor if you're not quick to offer up the scrumptious, puny male she so often demands.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Well, if an evil cleric becomes good, their deity will presumably stop granting them spells, so yes they will in effect have fallen. However, I'm pretty sure they can just start worshiping another deity. Maybe they'll have to be ordained by that god's church or go on a quest to prove their worthiness or something similar, but that depends on the deity and the DM.

    And clerics do not actually have to be devoted to a god at all, you can just worship a cause like "law" or "neutrality". Dunno what the procedure is for that. Seems like you'd need a bit more than to say "Fine, be that way! I'll just start focusing really hard, and the fundamental forces of the universe will give me magic!"

    As for evil paladins, I'm assuming you mean the variant ones from Unearthed Arcana. Each of them has some sort of code to follow similar to that of the "normal" kind of paladin, so yeah, they'll lose all their powers if the violate it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Worshiping a source of divine power causes it to grant spells to you automatically. Deities can choose to withhold spells from whoever they want; unconscious forces obviously can't do that, since they don't make choices.

    Important, pervasive phenomena are potential sources of divine power. Nature, Magic, Weather, Life, Fire, Flight, Balance, Law, Good; stuff like that. A cause embraced by many, like Justice or Civilization or Revelation, totally counts.

    Getting cleric spells by worshiping, say, blueberry muffins, is probably out. Of course, this all comes down to what the setting / your DM allows in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by newbDM View Post
    This just struck me. Since in oD&D-3.5D&D Evil and Good, along with Chaos and Law, are supposedly eternally equally balanced in the multiverse, does that mean evil clerics and paladins need to constantly worry about "falling" from the side of evil?
    You can run alignment so that helping others only counts as Good if you do it for the sake of helping them, but hurting innocents counts as Evil no matter what. Lame, IMO, and definitely contrary to the concept of Good and Evil as balanced opposites, but if you do that, it makes it easy for Evil characters to avoid rising. They don't have to worry about avoiding any sort of means to their preferred ends, they just need to hurt innocents somewhere in there.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    What happens to a Blackguard who converts? Can he trade in levels toward being a Paladin, or...?

    There's also the mechanic of giving an evil character a "Helm of Opposite Alignment".

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    What happens to a Blackguard who converts? Can he trade in levels toward being a Paladin, or...?
    It'd be a houserule, albeit a not-unreasonable one.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    What happens to a Blackguard who converts? Can he trade in levels toward being a Paladin, or...?
    This one's tricky, because the WotC folks really didn't think things through. Their assumed bias is that most every PC will start out as non-evil, though they may become evil later. So there are base classes that require good, lawful, neutral, and nonlawful alignments. But there are no base classes requiring evil, or even non-good alignments. There are only prestige classes that require such alignments. So with this flawed WotC assumption you can start out as a Paladin and become a Blackguard, but you can't ever start out as a Blackguard.

    Two ways to go with this: just house-rule it with the standard classes; or redo the Blackguard into a base class that's mechanically like the Paladin with an alignment reversal.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Really, evil clerics and paladins should have just as many restrictions as good ones.

    The way I'd do it would be that you don't need to worry about 'falling' to neutrality or good, but you can still lose your powers for not living up to the specific kind of evil your god represents. A cleric of Shar's expected to be sneaky, cruel, and vengeful, a cleric of Bane's expected to establish dominion whenever he can, a cleric of Gruumsh is expected to kill elves at every opportunity.

    A cleric of Gruumsh who treated elves well would be at risk of losing his powers, even if he stayed Chaotic Evil. This represents the gods of evil not getting on with each other - it's not enough to be on the evil side, you have to be on their side and you'll get whacked if you don't.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    This one's tricky, because the WotC folks really didn't think things through. Their assumed bias is that most every PC will start out as non-evil, though they may become evil later. So there are base classes that require good, lawful, neutral, and nonlawful alignments. But there are no base classes requiring evil, or even non-good alignments. There are only prestige classes that require such alignments. So with this flawed WotC assumption you can start out as a Paladin and become a Blackguard, but you can't ever start out as a Blackguard.

    Two ways to go with this: just house-rule it with the standard classes; or redo the Blackguard into a base class that's mechanically like the Paladin with an alignment reversal.
    Dread Necromancer? Hexblade? You're right that there are no core classes like that, though. Probably because, remembering the anti-DnD uproar some groups caused in the 70s, they didn't want anyone to think they were encouraging people to play as evil.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    So with this flawed WotC assumption you can start out as a Paladin and become a Blackguard, but you can't ever start out as a Blackguard.
    Actually, there is one, it's just not in any official source. :P

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Dread Necromancer? Hexblade? You're right that there are no core classes like that, though. Probably because, remembering the anti-DnD uproar some groups caused in the 70s, they didn't want anyone to think they were encouraging people to play as evil.
    Even the classes you referenced don't require evil alignments.
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    Alignment: Not all dread necromancers are evil, although the best of them could easily be described as evil-tolerant. No dread necromancer can have a good alignment.
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    Alignment: Any nongood.
    I don't know of any base classes that require evil alignment.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    No, good clerics/paladins fall, druids autumn, blighters spring and evil clerics/paladins rise.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Even the classes you referenced don't require evil alignments. I don't know of any base classes that require evil alignment.
    I was about to say the Assassin base class that's out there, but even it doesn't require an evil alignment--which is just silly.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Even the classes you referenced don't require evil alignments. I don't know of any base classes that require evil alignment.
    Well, there's the Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Slaughter. But since those are class variants, it's arguable whether they count.
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    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    I'm pretty sure that they didn't design everything around the assumption that everyone is gonna be Good or Neutral at level one. If only because NPCs are made using the same basic rules as PCs. Clerics of Nerull, Vecna, and other NE deities have to be Evil. That's not a whole class, of course, but how many classes require you to be Good? I can't think of any base class but paladin.

    I don't think that options for fallen paladins are actually there to help fallen paladins in general to not be screwed. If they were, they wouldn't require them to switch all the way to Evil or Chaos. They're just concepts that at least potentially include ex-paladin in them.

    So they didn't design an option for ex-blackguards for the same reason that they didn't design options for ex-paladins, I'd say. (I guess said reason is roughly "Screw you, open-ended character development!"?)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    What happens to a Blackguard who converts? Can he trade in levels toward being a Paladin, or...?
    Not really by the mechanics. But if he had paladin levels and converted to blackguard, and then converted back again, he would have the paladin level powers again, and he would still have the attack bonus from blackguard and paladin stacked.

    On general basis, I think he should keep the sneak attack and poison use abilities, as they aren't keyed to divine power

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    ...but how many classes require you to be Good? I can't think of any base class but paladin.
    Rangers?
    Then there's also all the lawful / chaotic alignment restrictions
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmoth View Post
    Rangers?
    Only in AD&D. There are prestige classes that require good alignment, but no base classes apart from paladins in 3.x.

    It's worth noting that all clerics, no matter their alignment, can fall if they do something their deity is not happy with. It's something many groups forget about.

    If you ask me, playing a cleric of an ideal in a setting with an established pantheon (apart from Planescape) is very cheesy - it's trying to get all the power of a cleric without any of the RP responsibilities. Not to mention you get to choose your own domains...

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    The thing is that it is just as easy for a paladin to fall to non-lawful than it is to fall to non-good.

    Paladins need to obey local authorities. Why? There is massively important reason for that. That way paladins can have headquarters even in cities that are ruled by evil authority. They can help the poor and do the little that they can because the lords know that paladins aren't going to arm rebels, poison the leaders, etc... Paladins can act as diplomats, prevent wars, etc. because they follow their code of not backstabbing the authority.

    Well, what happens if a good rebel comes and asks for protection? Paladins need to choose between doing the lawful thing (giving him over to authorities to secure that they can continue the good that they do) and doing the good thing (saving him). This kind of decisions are tough and though I don't want to start alignment discussion if either of those are really evil etc., it is important to understand that paladins need to face such problems.

    Now, look at lawful evil. They face the very same problems for the very same reasons. The reason why a good lord in a city can let blackguard organization stay, recruit, preach, act as diplomats, etc. is that he must know that they won't help rebels and evil cults and do similar stuff. So blackguards have very similar codes of conduct as good paladins. Yes, blackguards get poison use but that ability only affects poisons on a weapon, it still doesn't mean that they would be allowed to poison foods and drinks of leaders. And when it comes to doing what is best for the organization at the expense of those codes... Blackguards can fall.

    Chaotic evil ones are perhaps the ones with easiest to stay in their position as they get to do whatever feels best... But they can still have codes based on the religion. For example a cleric of gruumsh might have to kill anyone who tries to betray him or overthrow any leaders he sees too weak but that might be difficult to cope with in any sort of diplomatic situation.

    And feeling any compassion towards anyone puts you in a high risk of becoming to "fall" towards good.
    Last edited by Lentava-Heppa; 2008-12-21 at 06:50 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Disobeying an authority you do not consider legitimate is not a chaotic act.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Disobeying an authority you do not consider legitimate is not a chaotic act.
    Well it's not as if it's lawful.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcsw View Post
    Well it's not as if it's lawful.
    Actually, it is. Standing up to unjust authority is indeed a lawful act. Or would be, if the Law-Chaos axis made sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    I like Nobilis's rule "treat no mortal as your equal" for an evil paladin. Of course, substitute mortal for "creature weaker than you". That means you cannot show mercy, and that all creatures you work with is either because you recognize their power over you or they recognize yours over them (law).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lentava-Heppa View Post
    The thing is that it is just as easy for a paladin to fall to non-lawful than it is to fall to non-good.
    You fall for any (willing) evil act, but you don't fall for a chaotic one unless your alignment changes

    Paladins need to obey local authorities.
    Thay have to "respect legitimate authority". Questions of legitimacy gives you a lot of wiggle room, particularly if you consider that the ruler is still bound by both law and custom. Even if you can't work find reason to consider the authority illegitimate, respect does not necessarily require obedience. Fundamentally, Paladins need to remember that they serve an authority higher than that of any mortal rulers.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Disobeying an authority you do not consider legitimate is not a chaotic act.
    I did not fall to the "lawful = obeying laws" trap. However:

    Choosing to not consider the official authority as legitimate just because your views of how things should be don't fit theirs is indeed very chaotic act in my opinion. If we live in a medieval world where kings have always passed their power forward to the next leader through inheritance and a paladin chooses that it should stop immediatelly when the next king would be evil... How is that "No matter of the traditions that uphold the order, let's do things as I feel best" lawful in any way?

    And despite that, even if it is not chaotic to break laws, it is chaotic to break the moral code that guides your life and the said code would no doubt include obeying the local authorities.

    Why? If even the evil authorities know that the Knights of Heironeus in the city won't backstab or poison the rulers, won't arm rebels or incite rebellions, etc... Even any evil ruler allows them to be there. The knights can still help the poor (even if king doesn't), destroy monstrous threats to common people, preach about their god, act as diplomats that can prevent wars... Do a lot of good. But the moment that the rulers can't trust that the knights won't protect rebels or do anything like that they have no option but to tell the knights to leave city.

    And avoiding that scenario is the reason behind paladins' codes. The gods don't require them to have such. Clerics gain more from gods without having such. It is to ensure that they can work in any part of the world and do good instead of having to only do that where the ruler is good enough to make them unnecessary except for times of war.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lentava-Heppa View Post
    Choosing to not consider the official authority as legitimate just because your views of how things should be don't fit theirs is indeed very chaotic act in my opinion.
    Here is where we disagree - choosing to consider the authority non-legitimate because you disagree on something would be chaotic, but doing so because following them means performing evil acts or helping perform evil acts is not. A paladin needs to follow only just laws, not tyrannical ones.

    This discussion further proves how badly written the alignments in DND are.
    Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2008-12-21 at 10:17 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    I would say a legitimate authority is one who serves the needs of it's people.
    Say you have a petty bureaucrat who uses his position to hire friends into important positions, irrespective of their qualifications, and to block due process for personal enemies. Not legitimate.
    However, let us say you have a barbarian king who fearlessly protects his tribal kingdom from monsters and raiders. His standard of living may be higher then the average, but that is his reward for the risk he puts himself into for his people. Legitimate.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Worshiping a source of divine power causes it to grant spells to you automatically. Deities can choose to withhold spells from whoever they want; unconscious forces obviously can't do that, since they don't make choices.

    Important, pervasive phenomena are potential sources of divine power. Nature, Magic, Weather, Life, Fire, Flight, Balance, Law, Good; stuff like that. A cause embraced by many, like Justice or Civilization or Revelation, totally counts.

    Getting cleric spells by worshiping, say, blueberry muffins, is probably out. Of course, this all comes down to what the setting / your DM allows in any case.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    One of the games I'm in has a cleric of Rock and Roll.
    Did they look like THIS?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does an evil cleric/paladin need to worry about "falling"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    I would say a legitimate authority is one who serves the needs of it's people.
    Say you have a petty bureaucrat who uses his position to hire friends into important positions, irrespective of their qualifications, and to block due process for personal enemies. Not legitimate.
    However, let us say you have a barbarian king who fearlessly protects his tribal kingdom from monsters and raiders. His standard of living may be higher then the average, but that is his reward for the risk he puts himself into for his people. Legitimate.
    Mmm... legitimate authority only has to have avoided major cultural taboos regarding its succession, and to avoid active tyranny.
    The petty bureaucrat in your example might well still be a legitimate authority. A Paladin would dislike him, but would still have to obey his rules.
    Now, if that bureaucrat were calling hits on his enemies, or were discovered to have an Elvish great-grandfather (if the law calls for him to be a pureblooded human)... then the Paladin can stop considering him legitimate authority.

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