The 'Good' Race

[Eloel]

I've been thinking, (one of LotR films made me think on this, I admit)
Why are Elves always seen as the "good guys" ? There are dark elves, night elves, and some other subraces, that actually ARE evil. Thinking further in, to find a real "good" (non-celestial, mind it, Aasimars and stuff like that don't count) race.
Humans? Nope, we have quite enough examples
Elves? There are enough examples to stop "they are all good" stereotype.
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

[Inyssius Tor]

Duergar and Derro are both evil subterranean subraces of dwarf. Derro are bat**** insane, but duergar are just generally less friendly than your normal dwarf.

[Da'Shain]

Aren't duergar evil dwarves? Or are they just "dark" underground dwarves? I forget.

Anyway, evil halflings seem to be right out. I certainly can't think of any settings with an evil halfling race.

[Krrth]

I've been thinking, (one of LotR films made me think on this, I admit)
Why are Elves always seen as the "good guys" ? There are dark elves, night elves, and some other subraces, that actually ARE evil. Thinking further in, to find a real "good" (non-celestial, mind it, Aasimars and stuff like that don't count) race.
Humans? Nope, we have quite enough examples
Elves? There are enough examples to stop "they are all good" stereotype.
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Take at the Norse version of Dwarves. Not exactly the poster child for good. Also, duergar.


edit: gets trampled by Ninjas.


Da'Shain: Take a look at Dark Sun. They may not be Evil, but they sure make a case for it...

[Eloel]

Aren't duergar evil dwarves? Or are they just "dark" underground dwarves? I forget.

Anyway, evil halflings seem to be right out. I certainly can't think of any settings with an evil halfling race.

I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

[esorscher]

Duergar, as stated.

Gnomes and Halflings seem pretty good to me. Maybe a little mischievous. But you can't really define any race as "good" or "bad," there are exceptions to everything. It's all about freewill.

[Inyssius Tor]

I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

...all the duergar in H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth ?

EDIT: Dungeon Crawl Classics #44: Dreaming Caverns of the Duergar?

EDIT EDIT: The slaver thug Zark ("The Dwarf"), from the new Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: "Black Dragon" Maglurien, leader of the villainous Ebon Riders and up-and-coming acolyte of Orcus?

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: And that's just off the top of my head and the first three search results for "Duergar". I'm pretty sure there are more.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Da'Shain: Take a look at Dark Sun. They may not be Evil, but they sure make a case for it...

They eat intelligent creatures, like humans and other halfling-descended races. Definitely cannibals, and definitely evil.

So, yeah. Athas has evil halflings. Evil jungle pygmy cannibal halflings.

[Krrth]

They eat intelligent creatures, like humans and other halfling-descended races. Definitely cannibals, and definitely evil.

So, yeah. Athas has evil halflings. Evil jungle pygmy cannibal halflings.

Well, most of them do. As I understand it, some of the Halflings there are actually civilized.

[Inyssius Tor]

Well, sure, and some demons are quite civilized. Paladins, even. Doesn't mean demons aren't evil.

EDIT: And while we're talking about evil halflings, have none of you read the Book of Vile Darkness?

JERREN
... actually, wow, that's a lot of text, I probably shouldn't post it here. Let's just say that the Jerren are vicious halfling bastards, and uniformly evil as a race.

[Da'Shain]

I withdraw my suggestion of halflings, then. (On the Belkar example, though, I thought we were talking about races that were consistently evil in other races' eyes; half the point of Belkar is to point out that even halflings have their psychopaths.)

Gnomes? Or are the deep gnomes evil?

But yeah, I guess dwarves are usually portrayed as good guys. Sure, there's almost always some evil dwarves kicking around, but are there any settings in which most of them are evil? *Waits to be informed of his ignorance again*

[Tsotha-lanti]

Well, most of them do. As I understand it, some of the Halflings there are actually civilized.

Not in the present day of Athas, that I know. There's two types, pretty much: the jungle-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings, and the desert-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings who were displaced from the jungle.

There might be civilized remnants (my geography beyond the Tyr region is really poor), just like there exist soft and civilized remnants of the other races. The halfling mind-lords and body-benders used to rule Athas, and created almost all other intelligent life, but that was millenia ago (when the sun was still blue and green).

[Marshall]

Going solely on literature sources...

Evil Humans: I can get enough out of Tolkien to write a book, but let's just say Nazgul and the Dark Numenoreans.

Evil Elves: Eol, arguably, going to Tolkien. However, you also have the Melniboneans from the Elric stories and the Druchii (Warhammer Dark Elves).

Evil Dwarves: In Tolkien, the Petty Dwarves. See also: every Dwarf in Norse Mythos.

Evil Halflings: The sackville-Bagginses could be considered evil. Also, you may have heard of this one guy, Smeagol?

If you go to Tolkien for your source, every race has examples of evil. Going back farther than Tolkien, pretty much *every* fantastic race is evil in someone's version of things. Post-Tolkein, I'm sure you can find some hackjob author who's made just about every possible manipulation of race/morality.

[Jayngfet]

If you don't look at the evil subrace there's still a mountain of evidence that the supposed good guys are worse than the villans.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I wouldn't say the petty dwarves were particularly evil. I mean, Turin killed the dude's son before he was betrayed, and they generally treated the petty dwarves atrociously.

However, the regular dwarves got plenty evil when the Silmaril was placed in the Nauglamir. Murder, theft, and lying about it? Oh yeah.

Also, for more evil elves in Tolkien: almost all of Feanor's sons, Feanor himself, and the elves who followed him and participated in the kin-slaying at the havens in Aman...

All of that is single examples, though.

[Krrth]

Not in the present day of Athas, that I know. There's two types, pretty much: the jungle-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings, and the desert-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings who were displaced from the jungle.

There might be civilized remnants (my geography beyond the Tyr region is really poor), just like there exist soft and civilized remnants of the other races. The halfling mind-lords and body-benders used to rule Athas, and created almost all other intelligent life, but that was millenia ago (when the sun was still blue and green).

Could very well be. Wiki mentions some of them living in the "Pristine Tower", but it also indicates that's it's a"handful".

[imperialspectre]

Gnomes? Or are the deep gnomes evil?

They're listed as "usually neutral."

And halflings are plenty evil. Anybody else remember the kender? Those things are pure evil.

[Neithan]

The elves of Faerûn are anything, but definately not good. They have a very messy and ugly history and I don't know about any surface elf who ever did something really good, and definately whole societies of elves doing something good.
They are usually a bunch of arrogant people who live in isolation of the world and don't give a damn about anyone.

[Telonius]

The elves are "the good race" because they have the best propagandists.

[Eldariel]

They are usually a bunch of arrogant people who live in isolation of the world and don't give a damn about anyone.

Doesn't that pretty much apply to every race in Faerun? Heck, it's pretty justified as there are maybe 20 persons in the world who truly matter and the rest are just mortal sheeps whose souls might make decent trade material, but are otherwise just waste of flesh. So everyone who considers himself relevant by and large considers everyone else irrelevant, 'cause...well, it's true.

[valadil]

Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Dwarves are also usually greedy. I think this precludes them from being Good with a capital G.

I blame Tolkien for Good Elves. His elves are slightly divine. They're supposed to be that way.

[Neithan]

But they are not without flaw either.

Maybe Galadriel is CG, but the rest is mostly lacking good qualities.

[Narmoth]

I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

Rheingold. The Wagner (?) opera based on german medieval legends mixed with german pre-christian myths.
Usually, in medieval knightly tales, a dwarf or gnome would be the evil antagonists minion, although he also could be a good knights special squire, usually with some mentor-relationship in addition to the squire/assistant thing.

But they are not without flaw either.

Maybe Galadriel is CG, but the rest is mostly lacking good qualities.

What about Fingolfin, high king of the Noldor challenging Morgoth to single hand combat to stall the advance of troops from Agnband and let the elves and men escape from the lost battle?

Or Beleg the longbow, who followed and protected Turin, despite disagreeing with him, and in the end got killed by Turin?

Or Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond, who after his people refused to help Beren to get the Silmarils went with him himself and died for Beren.

Or even Fingon, who heroically saved Maedhros from imprisonment by Morgoth on Thangorodrim?

[Dixieboy]

Evil Dwarves: In Tolkien, the Petty Dwarves. See also: every Dwarf in Norse Mythos.

Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I blame Tolkien for Good Elves. His elves are slightly divine. They're supposed to be that way.

Not exactly. That's what we see of elves in LOTR, but if you look at his full mythos, including the Silmarillion, you find a much better picture of Elves. Ever heard of this dude named Feanor? Or Eol.

In fact, elves can be very emo when they get down to it. They're very weighed down by the weight of the sorrows of the world. And some of them can become very cold and desperate. In fact, in some ways, elves are the amplification of humans.

[Siegel]

Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

Alberich from the Nibelungen

[Marshall]

Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

Andvari, who cursed his gold to kill those who took it?

Dvalinn and Durinn, who in response to being kept from disappearing, offered to create a magic sword, and then made a sword that killed the wielder and spread evil?

The unnamed dwarf that permanently imprisons Sveigder?

Fjalar and Galar, who went about murdering people and bribing others with the gift of poetry?

[Kish]

They're listed as "usually neutral."

And halflings are plenty evil. Anybody else remember the kender? Those things are pure evil.

On a serious note, while I find the entire concept of "X Morality Races" profoundly distasteful and the further away from it D&D gets the happier I am (making it clear that no racial alignment is meant to be absolute is one of the few things I like about 4ed), kender are actually the only D&D race I've ever read about that fits what the OP seems to be looking for. Some good, some extremely good, some neutral, none evil.

[Starscream]

All these responses and not a single mention of Discworld elves? Elves don't come much eviler than that. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty sound."

Most DW dwarves (though they are always called "dwarfs") are portrayed as good as well as lawful, but a few ultra-conservative ones have been the villains in a couple of recent Watch books. They'd probably be classified as lawful evil, or at least a very negative portrayal of lawful neutral.

Edit:
Some Discworld gnomes might qualify as well, although most of the ones we've met (particularly the Nac Mac Feegles) might be better described as "extremely chaotic neutral".

[Kris Strife]

All these responses and not a single mention of Discworld elves? Elves don't come much eviler than that. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty sound."

Edit:
Some Discworld gnomes might qualify as well, although most of the ones we've met (particularly the Nac Mac Feegles) might be better described as "extremely chaotic neutral".

Dont forget, trolls and dwarves hate eachother because dwarves try to mine sleeping trolls for their diamond teeth.