[3.5] Up for a little challenge?

[asphen fox]

I've been thinking about it and I've realized how little non-physical ability based non-casters exist. SO... the challenge is... Can you guys make a non-caster build that's solely based on non-physical stats that is still effective in close-quarter combat? All books but BoVD and BoED are allowed.

[BWM]

You mean like a Druid with a wisdom of 9?

[Sledge_bro]

Easy.

Human Factotum.

Int 18,and Spam "Font of Inspiration" Feat

A Level 6 Factotum has about 24 pts. If he takes the feat at every opportunity,(At Int 20), he could easily have +20 To hit and +100 Damage.

Once every Five Minuites

at level 20 it gets worse. MUCH worse.

[Epinephrine]

A ninja/rogue/swashbuckler with Inuitive Attack (Wis to hit) and Daring Outlaw would do pretty well. Go with TWF, and take the Invisible Blade PrC.

So Ninja1/Rogue1-3/Swashbuckler1-2/Invisible Blade5/Swashbuckler3-8/Rogue4-6

You end up with potentially maxed UMD (handy), about 9d6 of sneak attack and 1d6 of sudden strike (not bad), a +2 bonus on reflex saves (Grace), Wisdom to hit, Intelligence to damage, Wisdom and Intelligence to AC, and can potentially bluff the crap out of people. Heck, as a human you can make monk your preferred class and advance the rogue/swashbuckler levels by staggering them, and not even take a multiclassing penalty (in case you use those rules).

Alternatively, one could go with a monk/unarmed swordsage style build, and switch into Shadow Sun Ninja. Intuitive Attack again, to get Wis to hit, you get Wis to damage on strikes from the right disciplines, invest in the stunning fist group of feats (which Shadow Sun Ninjas get full progression with) and you can be delivering nasty maneuver damage on top of Wisdom based stunning strikes, using your wisdom to hit, and adding your wisdom to damage, while benefitting from your wisdom to AC. Very Wisdom-focused...

[Telonius]

I've seen some online sources citing the "Weapon Panache" feat from the Assassins' Handbook as giving Cha to hit.

EDIT: Yes, this could work ... You'd need five levels of Iajutsu Master from Oriental Adventures, and a maxed-out Iajutsu Focus skill. Get the Weapon Panache feat, and you get Charisma to hit. Iajutsu Focus gives you extra damage on attacks vs. flat-footed opponents, and the fifth level of Iajutsu Master gives you +cha to each damage die you get resulting from that. This also gives you +int to AC, as well as both +cha and +dex to initiative. Easiest entry would be six levels of Samurai (found in Oriental Adventures, since any other class named Samurai doesn't actually exist and is in fact a bad dream). One level of Factotum plus six levels in a full-BAB class will also get you there, though a level later.

EDIT2: Flick of the Wrist could also be helpful there, though the requirement of DEX 17 might defeat the purpose of the exercise.

[Telonius]

So, the build for this guy.

Human (Crane)
32 point buy
STR 10
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 18 (21)

Bump charisma at 4, 8, and 12

1 Samurai - Improved Initiative, EWP (Katana)
2 Samurai - Quick Draw
3 Samurai - Weapon Panache (Wazikashi)
4 Samurai - Weapon Focus (Katana)
5 Samurai
6 Samurai - Ki Shout
7 Iajutsu Master - Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense
8 Iajutsu Master - Lightning Blade
9 Iajutsu Master - Great Ki Shout
10 Iajutsu Master - Skill Focus (Iajutsu Focus)
11 Iajutsu Master - Strike from the Void
12 Samurai - Expertise, Raptor School

With Weapon Panache, you can attack with your Wazikashi and add your Charisma instead of Strength to BAB, for a total bonus of +17. At 12th level, if you strike a flat-footed opponent, you'll have a minimum bonus to Iajutsu Focus of 15 (ranks) + 5 (Charisma) + 3 (Skill Focus) = 23, for a minimum of 3d6+15 bonus damage, maximum of 7d6+35 damage. Raptor School allows you to make your foe flat-footed more often. Ki Shout and Great Ki Shout puts your charisma to use other than combat.

EDIT: If you can find a race that gives you a bonus to Int or Cha, you can remove Great Ki Shout and shift the feats to compensate.

[ericgrau]

dwarf rogue 1, marshall X
minor auras: master of tactics, over the top, motivate charisma, then w/e
major auras: motivate attack, steady hand, motivate urgency, motivate care, then Resilient Troops
Relevant rogue skills: UMD, tumble
He's a dwarf so he can tumble in full plate or breastplate.
Note that all auras are swift actions and may be kept up continuously, so there aren't any of the problems that other buffers/self-buffers might have.

Not the strongest fighter, but at least he buffs his allies at the same time. He's mid BAB, but motivate attack brings that up to almost full. Master of tactics plus 1d6 sneak attack boost his damage a bit. Still a little weak b/c he doesn't have other class abilities to boost him above and beyond par, but he does boost the party at the same time so that helps. Technically physical abilities would help him even more, but cha is still most definitely his primary stat.

Edit: Hmm, a 3 level dip into samurai might really make this take off. And really you only need 3 levels of Marshall for the most important abilities. How about dwarf rogue 3 / marshall 3 / paladin 2 / fighter X (to prevent multiclassing penalties). You could also ditch fighter and just raise the other 3 evenly for a a rather interesting character, or tack on 2-3 levels in w/e other classes you want.

[monty]

I'm actually currently playing a swordsage whose only high stat is Wis.

Class feature for Wis to AC makes Dex less important; Intuitive Attack for Wis to hit makes Str less important. Since most of my damage is coming from maneuvers anyway, the strength loss isn't much of an issue. HP is low, but there are very few ways around that for any build.

[asphen fox]

Actually, I was thinking about an actual playable build that can start at low-levels and still be effective throughout its existence. The most I've seen so far are those builds that need to be in mid-high levels to be effective and the lowest level, I'm sorry to say, is only effective in combat (due to a cheese attack, I may say) once every 5 minutes which makes it effectively ineffective in long drawn-out encounters...

[playswithfire]

Need to move the pieces around, probably, to ensure playability at all levels, but this should be somewhat effective.

Bard feat[Carmendine Monk], human[Keen intellect], flaw[alertness]
Bard
Bard feat[snowflake wardance]
Bard
chaos monk Improved Unarmed Strike,combat expertise
Battle Dancer feat[iron will]
shiba pro
Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse
Swashbuckler feat
Swashbuckler
warblade
warblade feat
warblade
warblade
factotum feat
factotum
factotum
paladin
paladin

paladin of freedom
passive way variant chaos monk

INT to checks and skill checks based on STR,DEX,WIS, AC, reflex save (up to 4), critical confirmation, damage with any finessable weapon, will saves

CHA to all saves, attack rolls with one handed slashing weapons 4 times a day, AC, attack and damage rolls once you're a high enough level to get Slippers of Battledancing (since you'll have Press the Advantage from warblade)

WIS to all attack and damage rolls

Assuming slippers and you're wielding, let's say, a couple kukris,

BAB 15, so with slippers and wardance, attack rolls are 15+2xCHA+WIS and damage rolls are base damage +INT+WIS+CHA

[Telonius]

I like it, a lot. But is there any way to get those five levels of Iajutsu Master in there, without sacrificing too much? INT + WIS + CHA most likely isn't going to be more damage than CHA x bonus dice from Iajutsu focus.

[kalt]

I'm actually currently playing a swordsage whose only high stat is Wis.

Class feature for Wis to AC makes Dex less important; Intuitive Attack for Wis to hit makes Str less important. Since most of my damage is coming from maneuvers anyway, the strength loss isn't much of an issue. HP is low, but there are very few ways around that for any build.

I second this and just recommend ToB in general. You can make a pretty solid character out of those regardless of stats due to manuavers, stances, and boosts.

[Mephit]

I'm actually currently playing a swordsage whose only high stat is Wis.

Class feature for Wis to AC makes Dex less important; Intuitive Attack for Wis to hit makes Str less important. Since most of my damage is coming from maneuvers anyway, the strength loss isn't much of an issue. HP is low, but there are very few ways around that for any build.

This is viable at low-level adventures, and stays that way. (Although like any non-caster build, the caster inbalance might catch up at high levels...)
And you really shouldn't be surprised if there's some cheese used or a build with 5 different PrC's: You're asking for something that just wasn't meant to be built.

Alternatively, an Archer Build:

I first had an idea with Wis and Intelligence combined with the Zen Archery feat, but that's old. I came up with something new:

A Killoren Character is a fey and therefore qualifies for the Charming the Arrow feat. With the Destroyer aspect, she can 'Smite' once per hour. (Cha to AB, HD to damage)

1: Paladin 1, Charming the Arrow (Cha to Attack with Bows and Crossbows)
2: Paladin 2 (Cha to saves)
3: Paladin 3, Point Blank Shot
4: Paladin 4, (Turn Undead)

At this point, all you really need to do is dip into Fighter for necessary Archery Feats. You've got Heavy Armor Proficiency, so AC isn't a problem.


There are tons of ways to add a mental stat to a normally Physical bonus.
With good Wis and Int, A Ninja/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade with Intuative attack and Darin Outlaw gets Wisdom to AC and attack, and Intelligence to AC and damage.
Not bad, but why the hell go through all that trouble?