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Thread: [4e] Warforged

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default [4e] Warforged

    a friend of mine built a warforged battlerager sometime today...the question i have is pertaining to a set of gloves he had on him that add an extra 2d6 to any healing or temporary hit points he gives to contructs...

    do warforged count as constructs in 4e?
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Most certainly yes.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    so gaining 5+2d6 temp. hp per attack is completely legit?

    wow...
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Doresain View Post
    so gaining 5+2d6 temp. hp per attack is completely legit?

    wow...
    I'm wondering about these gloves, though. Where did he get that item from? I don't remember anything like that in the Player's Handbook or in the Warforged article that was published on Dragon.
    Last edited by FoE; 2008-12-24 at 02:04 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    something that was listed with the artificer
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    level 11, and he was using a battlerager? (not sure if thats what it is called)

    basically any attack he makes that has the invigorating keyword gets him a certain amount of temp. hp that stacks with any and all other temp. hp you have
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

    -The 13th Warrior

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Ah, I thought I smelled cheese.

    He's using a Reparation Apparatus, a magic item that grants an additional 2d6 temporary hit points to a construct whenever the user of the apparatus grants temporary hit points to said construct.

    As a battlerager, he gains temporary hit points whenever he attacks with a power using the invigorating keyword, and to stack those hit points with any other temporary hit points he gains.

    And because he's a construct as well, he's taken it to mean he would also get an extra 2d6 temporary hit points from the apparatus as well.

    Except that's completely unfair, and unless I'm incorrect, illegal. The apparatus is meant to grant temporary hit points to a construct other than the user whenever they use a healing ability. Here's the exact wording on the apparatus:

    Property: When you use a healing power on a construct, that creature regains an additional 2d6 hit points. When you use a power to grant temporary hit points to a construct, that creature gains an additional 2d6 temporary hit points.

    I would dispute this, as it is clearly broken. Download the artificer article. Show your DM the wording of the magic item and argue that the apparatus should only work when your friend grants temporary hit points to someone else. If that doesn't work, remind them this is a playtest article and probably has some problems with it.
    Last edited by FoE; 2008-12-24 at 06:32 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    I'm not one to normally split hairs, but this is a hair that needs to be split. A much more appropriate use of the gloves would be a Cleric using Sacred Flame to give temporary hit points. But honestly, grant means to give, and you can't give something to yourself.

    This is wrong. And the player probably suspects it or knows it himself.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Doresain View Post
    something that was listed with the artificer
    Cheese associated with the artificer? Who'd have thought... well some things never change I suppose.

    This is what DM's are for, ask him to sort it out.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    But honestly, grant means to give, and you can't give something to yourself.
    Sure you can.

    I gave myself an early christmas present this year.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Does the battlerager make the powers themselves grant hp, or is it a special ability that triggers when certain powers are used? If it's the second case, then I don't think the item would have any effect.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    I would say that the 2d6 would only work once an encounter, as it's not an Invigorating power and wouldn't stack with any other temp hp he has.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Jothki View Post
    Does the battlerager make the powers themselves grant hp, or is it a special ability that triggers when certain powers are used? If it's the second case, then I don't think the item would have any effect.
    Hm, this is an interesting question since I don't think many of the powers specifically say they grant temp hp in the stat block. Its all a side-effect of being 'invigorating'. But yes, what everyone else has said, the item property seems to heavily imply that the healing is granted to another construct. If you have two warforged in the party (one battlerage vigor fighter, one pally/cleric/warlord/battlerage vigor fighter) and two of these items, then you could cheese things up in a totally legitimate way.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    I don't think it works this way. Also, it should be noted, Warforged have the Living Construct subtype, not the Construct subtype. If it specifies it must be a Construct, it doesn't work on a Living Construct, IMHO. It's like how Aquatic and Water are two different monster subtypes, and mean very different things.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    You are using a beta-race with a beta-magic item. The synergy exists, but it is double-beta synergy that may not be intended.

    So, personally, I'd split the difference -- when used on yourself, it grants an extra 1d6 temporary HP -- reflecting the fact that the Warforged is a LIVING construct. It makes the item still good, more than worth giving up an item slot for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Elf View Post
    I don't think it works this way. Also, it should be noted, Warforged have the Living Construct subtype, not the Construct subtype. If it specifies it must be a Construct, it doesn't work on a Living Construct, IMHO. It's like how Aquatic and Water are two different monster subtypes, and mean very different things.
    This is wrong. "Construct: You have the construct keyword, so you are considered to be a construct for effects that relate to that keyword."
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Inyssius Tor View Post
    This is wrong. "Construct: You have the construct keyword, so you are considered to be a construct for effects that relate to that keyword."
    I haven't read the Dragon article, but in the Monster Manual, it says:

    Quote Originally Posted by 4e Monster Manual
    Living Construct: As a living construct, you have the following traits:
    - You gain a +2 bonus to saving throws vs. ongoing damage
    - You don't need to eat, drink, or breathe, but this does not render you immune to any effect
    - You need only 4 hours to benefit from an extended rest
    - When you roll a death saving throw, you can take the better of your die roll or 10 as the result. You still die at your negative hit point total
    which looks like Living Construct, rather than Construct, to me.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Warforged "monsters" in the monster section of the MM have the natural humanoid (living construct) type. They do not have the (construct) subtype, therefore they are no constructs, therefore the power does not work on Warforged.

    Also, note that the Living Construct and Construct subtypes are seperate in the MM glossary. Therefore, unless they have the Construct subtype, Living Constructs are not Constructs. So, the trick does not work.

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    The ones in Dragon, which are actually intended for player use as opposed to the use-with-caution MM warforged, are constructs. And living constructs. At the same time. Don't ask how that makes sense, but that's the way it is.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Inyssius Tor View Post
    The ones in Dragon, which are actually intended for player use as opposed to the use-with-caution MM warforged, are constructs. And living constructs. At the same time. Don't ask how that makes sense, but that's the way it is.
    It's Dragon. It's not supposed to make sense.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Inyssius Tor View Post
    The ones in Dragon, which are actually intended for player use as opposed to the use-with-caution MM warforged, are constructs. And living constructs. At the same time. Don't ask how that makes sense, but that's the way it is.
    Yeah, I'm inclined to think that that is a mistake on Dragon's part, as the Monster Manual non-player Warforged do not have the Construct keyword and literally every creature with the Construct keyword in the Monster Manual, Draconomicon, and Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide - in other words, every creature with the Construct keyword yet published by WotC - has the Animate type, which Warforged do not in any case.

    Warforged are Living Constructs, not Constructs. Therefore, the item that grants constructs extra temporary hitpoints does not affect Warforged, therefore the trick does not work

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroRebel View Post
    Warforged are Living Constructs, not Constructs. Therefore, the item that grants constructs extra temporary hitpoints does not affect Warforged, therefore the trick does not work
    he and the DM weren't too sure about, so we let it slide for that session...but thanks for clearing it up
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Wouldn't ruling that these don't work on Warforged make them pretty useless? Either rule that he has to use them on someone else, or say the 2d6 temp HP doesn't stack with itself.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroRebel View Post
    Yeah, I'm inclined to think that that is a mistake on Dragon's part, as the Monster Manual non-player Warforged do not have the Construct keyword and literally every creature with the Construct keyword in the Monster Manual, Draconomicon, and Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide - in other words, every creature with the Construct keyword yet published by WotC - has the Animate type, which Warforged do not in any case.
    Maybe, but if so, it wasn't just a typo or something. It says that Warforged have the construct keyword, and it's clear that it's in there on purpose, whether it's supposed to be or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Wouldn't ruling that these don't work on Warforged make them pretty useless? Either rule that he has to use them on someone else, or say the 2d6 temp HP doesn't stack with itself.
    Well, they do work on the Dragon version of the Warforged. But either way, it won't actually matter much because there aren't going to be that many Warforged running around. Seriously, how many parties have Warforged, and how often are they going to need healing.

    Besides, it's pretty obvious that the Reparation Apparatus is designed with the Artificier in mind, to help when the Artificier decides to heal one of his artifices. Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere that says that an artifice counts as a construct, but that's the sort of thing that playtesting is for.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    If I remember correctly, sources of temporary hit points don't stack. That might make it slightly more reasonable.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by quillbreaker View Post
    If I remember correctly, sources of temporary hit points don't stack. That might make it slightly more reasonable.
    Except for the fact that it is additional Tempo HP from the gloves, so it does stack. Its meant to stack.
    And the Battlerager Vigor class feature makes his Invigorating powers' Tempo HP stack with any other Tempo HP they have. So it ends up with broken amounts of HP.
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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Heh... Its nice to see the monster I created has people thinking the same things I did.

    The build was as follows: 11th level Warforged Fighter, Battlerager Vigor class feature. Used the Dragon article for Warforged (which defines warforged stats for players, and supersedes the Monster Manual statblock) which defines warforged with the construct keyword, and makes them a legal target for the property of the item. Now, for all the digging I could do, this combo is rules legal. This in no way is my claim that this is balanced or even sensible, but by the rule books/dragon articles published this combo is legal. I've talked with my DM, and we both agree it's ludicrously cheesy, and are working together to determine how the gloves should work (given that I do not play this warforged character, simply made him for a oneshot game for the holidays) should this combo ever again grace the gaming table.

    Really I don't see how this never got caught by the Char OP boards before I thought of it....

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    how goes the holidays on your end rince? i kinda sat on my butt all day and played WC3 because the rest of the group was apparently busy
    "'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. In the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever."

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    Default Re: [4e] Warforged

    Quote Originally Posted by Rince View Post
    Really I don't see how this never got caught by the Char OP boards before I thought of it....
    Well, it's a playtest article, meaning everything in it is liable to change by publication time. Now, this is the sort of thing they want people to send them mail about, so they stuff is balanced BEFORE it hits the shelves.

    I'd say those gloves will probably get a little "pre-print errata" that changes the text to "Any time you grant a Construct (other than yourself) temporary hit points" or "Any time you a power you use would grant an allied Construct temporary hit point " or whatever (since you're never considered an "ally" unless it says "you or an ally").
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2008-12-25 at 02:15 AM.
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