[4e] Human rogue - any particular build suggestions?

[Gamebird]

The online gaming group I was part of has switched over to 4e and this Saturday we play our first session. We are to make 1st level characters using PHB material. I'm making a human rogue and basically took the Trickster package right out of the book, plus Human Perserverance and an extra rogue power.

In 3.X, the templates in the book were generally not well optimized. Are the templates in 4e the same way? Is it worth my time to research a really good rogue build?

The campaign is expected to go from 1st level to 7th or so, maybe up to 10th. The other players are NOT power-gamers in any way. None of us but the DM have any more than passing knowledge of the system and even the DM is a bit sketchy on it. Even if I take a sub-optimal build, I won't be dragging the party down.

Yet curiosity makes me wonder if there's better out there that I should be aware of?

[Jera]

I would really suggest reading the material first. The pre-made characters are workable but IMO they kinda suck.

I personally prefere Trickster over brawny, so no qualms there.

Maybe you should think about switching your class to halfling or elf, the extra at-will sounds nice, but for a rogue its all but useless. The +2 CHA/+2 Wis and +2 DEX will help you more in the long run.

Remember Shurikens count as a Light Blade and when a rogue uses them their hit die increases to 1d6.

Edit: Just noticed your sig. My group is down in Tahlequah so if you have any questions or are just in the area send me a pm.

[The New Bruceski]

If you have the Martial Power book take a look at the rogue type/powers in there. Staggering attacks are a lot of fun.

[Shadow_Elf]

@^: He specified that the DM wants PHB-only material.

I personally prefer Artful Dodger over the Brutal Scoundrel, so IMHO you're on the right track there.
From there it depends on how you want to play. Will you be skipping around the battlefield using annoying attacks on different enemies to help control the battlefield? Do you just want to junker down and flank with an ally until the target is dead? Do you want to make Bluff checks and get your Sneak Attacks that way? It depends on how you want to play. However, at level 1, your only real options are in feats.

For a Run Around rogue, you'll probably want Defensive Mobility, since it stacks with Artful Dodger. Then you might want Skill Focus Acrobatics or Bluff, Escape Artist or Blade Opportunist/Combat Reflexes.

For a Flanking Rogue, you'll want to take Brutal Scoundrel over Artful dodger, and then take Backstabber then either Action Surge (human feat) or Nimble Blade.

That's all I can think of using PHB-only material for a level 1 character, so I hope it helps!

[Aron Times]

Brutal Scoundrels usually deal more damage than Artful Dodgers, since you will be able to Sneak Attack about 80% to 90% of the time. The former multiclass well into fighter, while the latter multicass well into warlock.

If you plan on being a rogue/fighter, and you're limited to the PHB, the rapier is your weapon of choice. If you're going for rogue/warlock, try to get your hands on a Pact Blade (a light blade that counts as a warlock implement).

Brutal Scoundrels need Strength and Dexterity, while Artful Dodgers, need Dexterity and Charisma. You probably wouldn't want to dump Wisdom so your Perception isn't hurt (one of my fellow LFR players plays an elven ranger with an extremely high Passive Perception which lets him auto-detect traps).

[Alteran]

An important thing to remember is that you're always going after combat advantage, whatever build you take. The difference is that Artful Dodgers aren't quite as reliant on it, and that's part of why they do less damage.

Decide on whether you want to be mobile and annoying, or a pure damage dealer. Take Artful Dodger for the former or Brutal Scoundrel for the latter. I suggest Halfling for an Artful Dodger. There is no race that gives STR and DEX in the PHB, so for a Brutal Scoundrel, Halfling or Elf are both fine.

All Rogue at-will powers are quite good. I would say that in general, the PHB suggestions for powers are the way to go. This can change depending on a number of factors, so it's really just a guideline.

[Vortling]

Not so much for you but your DM, but don't run Keep on the Shadowfell or any of the other prebuilt modules. I've run through several as a player and none of them are any good.

As for the human rogue. Take all the at-wills but riposte strike. Be an artful dodger. There's not really any good brutal scoundrel races in the PHB. Most of all remember that to hit bonuses are very important, so keep the dagger unless you absolutely can't stand it.

[KIDS]

IMO, 4E is much less affected by optimization than what I expected (and I like it). That also means that the starting packages are all completely nice to follow and will mostly get you where they promise. I think you're pretty fine with starting with any of them.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm going to disagree with most of the above and say that Brutal Scoundrel is much better. You're playing a striker, for crying out loud, so an ability that deals substantially more damage is going to be more useful for you than an occasionally-defensive one.

And yes, brutal scoundrels are still mobile and annoying. Sneak attack bonus also applies while sniping. There´s plenty of ways to avoid opportunity attacks, including the level two power Tumble, several feats and items, and simply having a good defender in the party.

Incidentally, Riposte Strike is a very nice mindscrew towards your enemies.

Also incidentally, the dagger is the best rogue weapon by far, because a to hit bonus is so useful. Most of your powers´ effects don´t kick in on a miss.

[Behold_the_Void]

Really, if you look over the powers and pick what sounds cool or interesting to you, you'll probably be fine. It's hard to really make your character suck without actively trying to.

[Kurald Galain]

Really, if you look over the powers and pick what sounds cool or interesting to you, you'll probably be fine. It's hard to really make your character suck without actively trying to.

Well, except for three things. (1) DON´T start with less than an 18 in your primary attack stat, (2) DON´T try to build `both sides´ of a class, e.g. make either a Str cleric OR a Cha cleric but not a Str-and-Cha cleric, and (3) DON´T take Careful Strike.

[KKL]

Well, except for three things. (1) DON´T start with less than an 18 in your primary attack stat

16 is perfectly fine if you know that the drop won't be a terrible hit to you. I have a level 18 elf Beastmaster that does fine enough with a base 16 str. But aside from those odd situations out, yeah, there really is no excuse to not aim for the 18.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

(2) DON´T try to build `both sides´ of a class, e.g. make either a Str cleric OR a Cha cleric but not a Str-and-Cha cleric

It depends on the class. The best rule here is to only have one primary stat. In the case of the rogue, it's perfectly possible to dip into both builds, because the beefy stat is Dex, whilst you can have smaller stats of Cha and Str. In the case of a Paladin, though, for example, you can't really split it, because the paladin builds have different primary stats (Str or Cha, with Wis as the secondary stat).

Anyhow, yeah, the advice given so far is good. The Brutal Scoundrel deals more damage, but the Trickster helps to compensate for the striker's weaknesses, and is more well-rounded. It's all about if you want to go for pure damage, or nifty effects. For instance, the Trickster Rogue can do some fun sliding, and you get bonuses for having Artful Dodger (like Positioning Strike, which lets you apply your Cha modifier to the number of squares you slide an enemy, instead of merely one square).

For the human trickster rogue, I'd also advise that you take Quick Draw and Rapier Proficiency as your feats. This lets you have a rapier, dagger, and shuriken as your weapons, switching out between them as necessary. Dual-wield the dagger and the shuriken/rapier, using Quick Draw to let you sheathe one and attack with the other, along with a move, in one round. One of the funnest things to do as a rogue is to swap out between weapons.

[Gamebird]

Well, this is what I had initially:
Character: Rufina. Human. STR 11, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHR 14. Feats: Backstabber, Human Perseverance. Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish, Piercing Strike / Positioning Strike / Trick Strike. Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery. HP: 26. Healing Surge/day: 8.


Quick Draw sounds nice. Not so sure about Rapier. My 4e book isn't where I can get to it right now.

I'm more looking for the mobile and annoying character than the straight damage. We've got a couple fighter-dudes and I don't want to steal their thunder.

What should I change?

[Alteran]

This lets you have a rapier, dagger, and shuriken as your weapons, switching out between them as necessary.

I don't see the point of using daggers and shuriken. It's usually a better idea to pick one and stick with it, especially since you have a rapier for melee.

[Vortling]

Well, this is what I had initially:
Character: Rufina. Human. STR 11, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHR 14. Feats: Backstabber, Human Perseverance. Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish, Piercing Strike / Positioning Strike / Trick Strike. Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery. HP: 26. Healing Surge/day: 8.


Quick Draw sounds nice. Not so sure about Rapier. My 4e book isn't where I can get to it right now.

I'm more looking for the mobile and annoying character than the straight damage. We've got a couple fighter-dudes and I don't want to steal their thunder.

What should I change?

Don't worry about the thunder stealing. 4e forces character balance to the point that it's not possible to be much better than another character unless they make the mistakes Kurald Galain outlined.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't see the point of using daggers and shuriken. It's usually a better idea to pick one and stick with it, especially since you have a rapier for melee.

Well, they're all light blade, and here's how it works out.

Dagger: ranged/melee, best attack bonus (with Rogue Weapon Talent), worst [W] die (countered as the level scales up, by the ability score bonus)
Shuriken: ranged, second-best attack bonus, medium [W] die (with Rogue Weapon Talent)
Rapier: melee, second-best attack bonus, best [W] die

So, you can pick and choose what you'd rather do. If you want an attack to hit, try using the dagger, especially the power has a good effect. That +1 can definitely make a difference. If you're shooting for more damage, whack 'em with a rapier. When it comes to ranged, you have the tradeoff between attack bonus and damage die. It's all about meeting the situation. This is enhanced if there's a different magic enhancement applied to each weapon. It's basically the Batman approach: use the right tool for the job.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, this is what I had initially:

I'd recommend against Quick Draw; just take one weapon and stick with it. Also, if you're going to level up, it's easier to get one cool and useful magical weapon, than three.

Dagger really is best (it does more damage than rapier, and it can be thrown). Rapier is probably the most stylish. So my advice is that if you're taking Rapier (and, for that matter, the backstabber feat) for the style, go for it; whereas if you're taking them for the damage boost, you're actually mistaken in your math.

Other recommended feats include Skill Focus Stealth, Action Surge, and a multiclass feat of your choice because those are always good.

[KKL]

Don't worry about the thunder stealing. 4e forces character balance to the point that it's not possible to be much better than another character unless they make the mistakes Kurald Galain outlined.

I'm going to have to respectfully say that you're wrong in that regard. Completely.

[Shadow_Elf]

If you want a very deadly 1/encounter combo for the Trickster Rogue, you could always go MC Warlock and Action Surge. Then you use Eyebite (as an encounter power) to make yourself invisible to the target, and spend an action point to pull off a daily or good encounter, with combat advantage, and the big bad bonus from Action Surge. At level 2 you can take Backstabber to make it even more deadly.

[TheEmerged]

First, as others have mentioned optimization is not as huge a factor in 4th Edition. The templates in the book are workable, perhaps not the best but not by enough of a margin to worry about. Some general advice based on your parameters then (human race, PHB only material, only worrying about the Heroic Tier, may need some "unlearning" advice from 3.x). Since you specified Trickster rogue, all I'll say about Brutal Scoundrel is that it is in fact a good choice -- our party's halfling rogue took it. Artful Dodger certainly has its benefits (more in power selection than the immediate benefit).

0> Have your DM get his hands on "Martial Power" as soon as feasible. For an experienced DM it should be the 3rd purchase you make in 4th Edition (Player's Handbook first, Monster Manual second). It will not only give your group more options & flexibility but will also give your DM a better look at how things work now.

1> You didn't specify how the ability scores were being assigned. You're going to want a score of at least 18 in Dex -- as a human that usually means assigning/buying a 16 to it and then adding your +2 to any one stat. It's not a crushing lose if you end up with a 16 here but get it to 18 if you can.

2> You mentioned going the Trickster template (and hence Artful Dodger), so your second stat should be Charisma. Try and get it to at least a 14. If you're rolling stats and can put more here, do so. This may also mean you're going to end up the party's mouthpice, so check with the other players and give serious consideration for Intimidate, Streetwise, and Bluff.

3> Don't worry too much about Str -- as a Trickster/Artful Dodger, it just doesn't mean that much to you (Athletics skill, and damage on "basic melee" attacks). You want a score of at least 12 for Constitution and higher would be good if you can afford it. Now, since you come from a 3.x background I want to make sure you don't make the same mistake I made at first. Your HP at first level is going to be 12 plus your Con score -- so if you start with a Con of 12, you'll have 24 HP. Your number of Healing Surges is going to be 6 plus your Con modifier, so with a Con of 12 you'd start with 7 surges per day.

4> Let's talk about Defenses for a moment -- Fortitude, Will, Reflexes. There are two attribute scores attached to each, and only the higher of the two scores apply. So if you did make Str your dump stat of 8 and Con 12, you'd still get a +1 to your Fortitude defense. Similarly if you instead made Intelligence your dump stat of 8 and have a Dex of 18, you'll still ge the +4 Reflex defense (the -1 modifier from Int won't hurt you). Similarly you can probably keep you Wisdom a 10 and just use Charisma to increase your Will. Of course as a human you increase each of these three by +1.

Personally I don't like to make use of a dump stat unless it fits the role I want for the character and increase everything to at least 10 under a point buy, but to each their own. When I was theory-building characters my human rogue ended up Str 10, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 14. (I specify theory-building because the party rogue is another player, and he went halfling for race). Str 10, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16 is doable if you use Int as your dump stat.

5> Skill choice: you're going to start with Steath (Dex) and Thievery (Dex). As a human you get to choose 5 more from the following list -- Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Dungeoneering, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, and Streetwise. Perception is a no-brainer. With your bonus Charisma, you should take Bluff and Streetwise -- and you might want Intimidate too, depending on the rest of the group. Hey look at that, we're following the Trickster Rogue template almost exactly! Take one or more of the others based on your own ideas for your characters.

6> As a human, and not using the Martial Power supplement, your choice of at-will attack powers is about which of the 4 you *aren't* going to take. Since Deft Strike and Sly Flourish are no-brainers, it comes down to Piercing Strike (attack against Reflex instead of AC) or Riposte Strike (bonus attack of opportunity if the victim attacks you). I'm going to recommend against Riposte Strike, simply because you want the opponent attacking someone other than you most of the time.

For your encounter attack power, I'm going to recommend Positioning Strike due to the Artful Dodger bonus. King's Castle has some *serious* charms though -- like the ability to use it ranged. Tortutous Strike is a good choice for Brutual Scoundrels but not Artful Dodgers. Dazing Strike is often overlooked, but keep in mind that "daze" is on the list of effects that grant Combat Advantage -- making it a good choice in "boss" scenarios or tight quarters (where you aren't as likely to get combat advantage from positioning).

Each of the daily powers has a charm -- and all can be used at range. Trick Strike (the recommended one) does 3[w] damage and not only causes the opponent to slide 1 square, but causes them to slide 1 square every time you hit them for the rest of the encounter. Easy Target is only 2[w] and a save ends its two effects, but has a nifty "on miss" effect. Blinding Barrage isn't quite as powerful as it might appear due to the "only as many targets as you can attack with your wielded weapons" rule, but has the additional flexibility of being usable against minions while still having a "miss" effect and working against bosses.

7> Feat Time! Again, the recommended one (Backstabber) is a good choice -- adding +2 damage on average to your Sneak Attacks. "Human Persveerance" on the other hand isn't so hot. You have a 55% chance of making most save rolls anyway, I don't think increasing that to 60% is worth a feat. I will instead recommend "Warrior of the Wild", unless you've got your heart set on a different multiclass. This gives you ANOTHER additional skill (from the Ranger skill list) and allows you to declare a Hunter's Quarry once per encounter. Remember, your job is to do damage and this will allow you to increase your damage against 1 enemy per enounter by +1d6. (I personally predict they're going to errata that "or" in the prerequisite for this feat to "and").

Now, someone else brought up the possibility of taking Weapon Proficiency: Rapier as your bonus feat for being a human. There are charms here -- the Rapier is a light blade so you can use it with sneak attacks and your attack powers. You'd be moving up 2 damage categories (from 1d4 to 1d8), an average of 2 pts of damage per roll. You'll be *averaging* more than the maximum from a dagger (4.5 vs 4). However you will be doing so at the cost of +1 attack bonus from the dagger (which you get as a class feature). It should certainly be one of your first 3 feats as a human rogue, whether to take it as your human bonus feat or as your 2nd level feat is up to you.

BTW, get used to that economy of chosing between +2 damage and +1 attack power. It comes up for several classes :)

8> A couple of quick "unlearning" points. First, there is absolutely no penalty in the game for carrying a shuriken in your off hand, so you'll generally be running around with your main weapon in the main hand (a dagger, or rapier once you have the feat) and a shuriken in the off-hand. Remember that reloading your dagger is a minor action -- and again, there's no penalty for doing this with your off-hand. Another is that bonuses to attack are rarer and more valuable in 4th Edition.

9> For the future?

9a> Take a long look at Improved Initiative vs Quick Draw. As a rogue you have the First Strike feature, which makes initiative an important concern for you. Generally Improved Initiative is the better choice, but Quick Draw has its charms (it works well with Blinding Barrage, for example).

9b> I know you said PHB only but... there is precedence (in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, pg 134) for a feat that allows you to use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making a basic melee attack (the one in the FRPG uses Int, not Dex). Try to talk your DM into allowing this as a house-ruled feat.

9c> The "Nimble Blade" feat (+1 attack bonus to light blade attacks when you have Combat Advantage) should also be in your future, as should Action Surge (its +3 attack advantage when using an action point is hard to beat). Alertness is also a good choice for you. Press The Advantage and Surprise Knockdown look great, but come up less often than I care for. *Avoid* Power Attack, since attack bonuses are much harder to come by than damage bonuses. Skill Focus is a mixed bag; personally I'd take it but I've found that most DM's respond by increasing the difficulty of every related challenge to compensate.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm going to recommend against Riposte Strike, simply because you want the opponent attacking someone other than you most of the time.

I'm going to recommend that you take Riposte Strike, precisely because you want the opponent attacking someone other than you most of the time.

Even if you never get that opportunity attack, if Riposte Strike is causing your opponents to attack other people that means that it's working.

the Rapier is a light blade so you can use it with sneak attacks and your attack powers. You'd be moving up 2 damage categories (from 1d4 to 1d8), an average of 2 pts of damage per roll. You'll be *averaging* more than the maximum from a dagger (4.5 vs 4).

No, you won't be. You shouldn't look at "average damage on a hit", but at "average damage, including Sneak Attack, taking into account your to-hit chance".

BTW, get used to that economy of chosing between +2 damage and +1 attack power.

Get used to choosing +1 attack power, then. Pretty much all your powers do additional stuff when they hit, so having them hit is important.

8> A couple of quick "unlearning" points.

Ironic you should mention that

Generally Improved Initiative is the better choice, but Quick Draw has its charms (it works well with Blinding Barrage, for example).

You don't need quick draw with blinding barrage (because a multi-attack power has you drawing the ammo for free). You don't need it for other things either once you get a +1 dagger, since every magical ranged weapon magically returns to your hand when thrown.

9c> The "Nimble Blade" feat (+1 attack bonus to light blade attacks when you have Combat Advantage) should

This should be one of the first feats you pick. A well-played rogue has combat advantage pretty much all the time, and +1 to attack for one feat great. Yes, you can have +12 to hit as early as level one, how is that not awesome?

[TheEmerged]

You don't need quick draw with blinding barrage (because a multi-attack power has you drawing the ammo for free). You don't need it for other things either once you get a +1 dagger, since every magical ranged weapon magically returns to your hand when thrown.

Hmm, I'd have sworn the "you have to have the ammo wielded" rule was still in effect, but can't find it right now.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmm, I'd have sworn the "you have to have the ammo wielded" rule was still in effect, but can't find it right now.

It is not in effect. They did this to prevent Mandatory Feats. A good idea, that.

Re: OP
Looks pretty good, but you're going to want to go Dagger for sure. Hitting for a Dodger is just that much more important; +4 to hit vs. +3 to hit can really make a difference sometimes. Plus, 2d8 Sneak Attack damage pretty much makes up for only 1d4 [W] damage.

On going forward:
- Improved Initiative and Quick Draw do not stack. I would take Improved Initiative for sure because (1) Drawing a weapon is a Minor Action and you don't really have anything else to use it for and (2) getting to act before your enemies in Initiative is great.

- Do not worry about overshadowing your Fighters. They are there to keep the enemy distracted and occasionally land an awesome hit. Strikers do a lot of damage, and Rogues are known for doing single-target damage bursts. Your Ranger is going to be shredding multiple enemies at a time, and a Warlock is going to be happy nuking folks from afar.

- Keep an eye on how many shifting attacks you take. At some point, you have enough shifting Encounters to make it through any fight, and it might be nice to take something else.

- Check out the stat prerequisites for Paragon feats (and Heroic too). It's nice to keep those in mind when you're doing your stat boosts as you level. Don't worry about Paragon yet, but do make a note of them.

[Vortling]

I'm going to have to respectfully say that you're wrong in that regard. Completely.

I'm open to being shown I'm wrong. However, I require specific mechanical examples of one class stealing another's thunder. We can even take this to pm to avoid muddying the thread.

[The Valiant Turtle]

I'm more looking for the mobile and annoying character than the straight damage. We've got a couple fighter-dudes and I don't want to steal their thunder.

This statement sounds like you are making some rather bad assumptions for 4.0. A 4.0 rogue is a striker. Doing big damage is your job, make sure you can do that job first. A 4.0 fighter is a defender. Doing damage should not be a 4.0 fighter's priority. Their damage will be decent, but it should be less than yours. If you do in fact have multiple defenders than I would definitely go for a brute build. One of the fighters should usually play flank buddy for you.

In 4.0 I actually feel more need for mobility as a defender than I do as a striker. A defender needs to get to the party member that most needs them, or to the enemy that most needs to be locked down. A striker just needs to get to the next worthwhile enemy. There are certainly occasions when you really do want to get to strike one particular enemy, but you probably don't want to get to them without a defender with you anyway.

Of course, if by fighter-dudes you meant Rangers or Warlords, well, that changes things, since those are not defender roles and don't really have that much in common with the fighter.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Straight damage isn't all that the rogue is built for. Out of all the strikers, I think the rogue might just be the one that throws around the most funky effect stuff. Especially the sliding powers. Rogue has a nice little dip into controller, actually. Especially with the trickster build.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This statement sounds like you are making some rather bad assumptions for 4.0. A 4.0 rogue is a striker. Doing big damage is your job, make sure you can do that job first. A 4.0 fighter is a defender. Doing damage should not be a 4.0 fighter's priority. Their damage will be decent, but it should be less than yours. If you do in fact have multiple defenders than I would definitely go for a brute build. One of the fighters should usually play flank buddy for you.

In 4.0 I actually feel more need for mobility as a defender than I do as a striker. A defender needs to get to the party member that most needs them, or to the enemy that most needs to be locked down. A striker just needs to get to the next worthwhile enemy. There are certainly occasions when you really do want to get to strike one particular enemy, but you probably don't want to get to them without a defender with you anyway.

Of course, if by fighter-dudes you meant Rangers or Warlords, well, that changes things, since those are not defender roles and don't really have that much in common with the fighter.

I dunno; Rogues really do need to be pretty mobile to always get into Flanking position. Fighters and other potential flanking buddies aren't always free to shift around (they might need to protect a front line) and an Artful Dodger getting +CHA to OA AC makes him pretty happy walking around the battlefield.

Plus, as has been noted, Rogues in general (and Artful Dodgers in particular) have access to a lot of Controller-y powers. The sheer amount of status effects (and shifts) available to a Rogue of any level is surprising, to say the least.

I think the nice thing about a 4E Rogue is that they just end up doing more damage; you don't really need to build them with that in mind. Sneak Attack is Sneak Attack, and applies to any attack made with CA - you don't have to worry about taking a half-dozen feats to make sure you kick ass in every possible encounter.

[Gamebird]

I really like the Warrior of the Wild suggestion. I'll switch out Human Perseverance for that and pick up Dungeoneering too. I'm not seeing the stat requirements for Paragon advancement. All I see as a prereq is Rogue class.

[Shadow_Elf]

I really like the Warrior of the Wild suggestion. I'll switch out Human Perseverance for that and pick up Dungeoneering too. I'm not seeing the stat requirements for Paragon advancement. All I see as a prereq is Rogue class.

They mean prereqs for Paragon-Tier Feats. Most Light blade feats required Dex > 17 at Paragon Tier, some more. And you have to have just enough Strength around to qualify for certain feats.