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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default [Any] Modules vs. Original

    With the exception of the walkthrough game I ran when I first started DMing (me and my friends picked up the starter kit and just went through it), everything I've DMed has been an original creation by Po (that's me). It's a lot of work, but I like doing it. I like having the freedom to make stuff up on the spot and not worry about whether it will fit in the plot later; since I make the plot, and the only campaign setting I've ever used has been Eberron, and only once, and only loosely.

    How many of you use pre-made modules or campaigns? What is their appeal? I never understood it, but I see a lot of threads about common pre-made modules. Is it something I should look into?

    Also, side question: Can I use divine metamagic to persist produce flame? It's a domain spell for the fire domain. If I can, can I still use the fire-missile shooting ability of the spell?
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    How many of you use pre-made modules or campaigns? What is their appeal?
    I never do. Their appeal is that they take less time to prepare, and that their content (mediocre though it may be) is better than what some DMs I could mention can come up with. And don't forget that some people prefer being told what exactly to do to progress the plot.

    [quiote]
    Also, side question: Can I use divine metamagic to persist produce flame?[/QUOTE]
    Yes, but each shot reduces the duration by one minute. DMM/persist is generally considered cheesy.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Although a few modules have attained classic status (Like Temple of Elemental Evil and Tomb of Horrors), I've always preferred to make my own stuff.

    For new DMs modules can be a very good teaching tool, however. I'd always advise a beginner to try one before creating a dungeon from scratch. If nothing else it'll give them ideas.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    cool Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I've always made my own worlds, my own adventures within them... I can rarely count on having the correct number of players, a "balanced" set of party characters, etc., for a module's purposes, and I can always tweak it on the fly more easily if it's my own game.

    I do use modules for inspiration, however, and as a guide for balance.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Modules are great for DMs like me. I'm not the most creative person, so having something to start with is great, because I don't have to make everything up and can springboard and adjust where I want to. I'm also really bad at judging encounters' difficulty, so that's another point in modules' favor.

    Another point is the sheer amount of work involved in creating a world and campaign. I simply don't have that amount of time, so modules are about the only way we get to play (on the rare occasion we actually get together).
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I am expecting a lot of module-hate here so I'll jump in to defend them.

    There are a lot of reasons to use premade. If you don't want a whole campaign but just occasional play, it is quick to just ask "Hey, what level you guys want to play? 11? Okay, I'll just grab a WotC adventure for that level. I'll read it through while you guys make characters and we can play."

    But there is more than that. If we forget the bulk crap that WotC pushes out as adventures and go to some of the quality stuff (such as those published by Paizo [seven days to the grave for example] or the Expeditious Press [their one-on-one adventures]), they are interesting, inspiring, fit well inside campaigns and honestly are pretty awesome.

    It is not just "Premade are for DMs that can't come up with good stuff themselves or are too busy or lazy to prepare". A good DM can either design something himself and prepare it in X time and get some result. Or he can read a good adventure, use X time in preparing it, fitting it in eviroment, expanding it with his own ideas... And often get a LOT better result than just coming up with everything from scratch. And under a good DM the module isn't just stereotypical "You can't do what isn't written here" railroad thingy. A computer could do that. The DM's work is exactly to be the interface between the adventure and players.

    Honestly, if any DM says "I think I am so good that I won't learn anything by reading ideas from good adventures made by others" I want to leave his game that instant. There isn't that good DMs and anyone who thinks that he is one probably isn't.

    Also many DMs can't balance encounters to be interesting and challenging at the same time that they avoid killing too many players. Many have the problem of making every encounter challenging while many players honestly enjoy having occasionally difficult and occasional easy encounters. Some can make great encounters but they need to spend a lot of time on them. Just stealing premade encounters for all of these are good.

    And it isn't just about good and bad adventures and "Is the DM better or worse than this adventure". It is also about styles. Some DM might be good as a DM and good in design but the players might still enjoy the occasional times that the DM decides to run adventure written by someone with a different style, pacing, etc... A little more variety than campaign ran by any single DM can have.

    So... Yeah. I honestly recommend reading and DMing premade adventures occasionally even to those DMs who think that they are better than that. And for any who thinks "modules are restrictive so I don't DM them" I say "You are doing it wrong"

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Modules are a total waste of time. Not only are a lot of them glorified railroads, but how can they be even remotely appealing to the drives and motivations of the players, given the GM doesn't even write them themselves?

    Last time I used a pre-written module was back in 1992 about six months after I'd started roleplaying. My group quickly ditched them and made up our own stuff. More than 15 years later, I still never feel any need to use one.

    Course the fact that we didn't play any of the modules might explain why my AD&D2e experience often seems at variance with what other people were doing. Besides most modules are at a level of detail and pre-planning, along with pre-supposition in how players are going to react that's far more than I'd put into any session. I wouldn't spend more than an hour or two in prep, and I sure as hell wouldn't be mapping stuff out.

    And one final issue - you can only use them with any given group once. Why would I pay all that money for something I get one use out of?
    Last edited by Kiero; 2008-12-25 at 02:27 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I think Lentava-Heppa hit the greatest uses of Modules spot on the head. They're only as restrictive as you let them be.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Remmirath's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I think modules are good for starting DMs or starting players. They're easy. If you add a few of your own twists to them, they can even be pretty fun. Like most things about D&D, they're not really meant to be played precisely as written. Most of the ones I've seen even recommend you change things up a bit to keep the players interested.

    At least, the 1st or 2nd edition modules I played in were fun. I haven't actually seen any 3rd edition ones, now that I think about it (and I certainly have no clue what 4th edition ones are like). I remember playing the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, Keep on the Borderlands, Eye of the Wyvern, and Web of Illusion.

    These days I always write my own campaigns, and I certainly prefer doing that. It's half the fun of DMing for me.

    So basically, I think they can be fun for a change or for a group with a lot of people who haven't played D&D before. And if you have a DM who isn't very good at making their own campaigns yet, then they're certainly better than that.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I have mixed feelings about them. I just ran one as part of a campaign for my group and the result was a little less than fulfilling. For one thing, the module made it clear that you were supposed to try and rescue (I.E. not kill) some of the villains, but the spells needed to end their madness (Dismissal, Break Enchantment, Dispel Evil, etc.) are all higher level than a character of the recommended level could cast. This left the party in a bit of a pickle as they tried to subdue people who were actively trying to kill them.

    Personally, I think modules can be very valuable, provided you pick good ones. The one that I ran had the weakness of not having a lot of things explained, thus leaving me to interpret them on the fly when I had expected that there would be at least a little explanation. That's admittedly my fault for not fully reading through the adventure to see that such things were missed, but I think it's a weakness that many DMs may fall into. I know that with the adventures that I designed for the group, I never felt uncomfortable tweaking something to fit what the party decided to do, and I never felt like things were going so badly that people weren't having fun.

    My recommendation is to use modules at your own risk, and make sure to prep carefully beforehand even if you're using modules. This may mean that the module won't save you any time over creating an adventure yourself, however, so keep that in mind. Personally, I'd be surprised if I used a module again.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    What is their appeal?
    Because as the incredible volume of terrible movies coming out each year shows, telling a coherent story is difficult for some people. I imagine that it's even more difficult to tell a coherent story when four members of the audience regularily try to stab other major characters in the face.

    Sometimes it's nice to have a professionals guiding hand on the tale you tell, especially if you don't have time to generate your own rolling epic.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I don't use them, but I know plenty of people who do. I usually focus on one character at a time, so that it's their story in turn, and modules make it difficult to do that for me.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I use modules if I'm not familiar with the setting. Helps me get the feel and flavor of the world.

    I used them in Dark Sun, and Paranoia.

    I go about half and half because I tired of stuff I know too well so I have to learn another thing...meaning a new module.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    You have to use modules in RPGA games. Each LFR module is designed to be played within a four-hour session, and it takes roughly three level-appropriate modules to get to the next level.

    Some modules are prerequisites for future modules. For example, BALD1-1 Flames of Initiation lets you perform three of five tasks for the Flaming Fists of Baldur's Gate. If you successfully complete the module, you gain a story reward that lets you play in a future module that lets you perform the last two tasks.

    In a home game, a DM can tailor modules for his players. For example, if he's running an adventure in Waterdeep and one or more of the player characters is a local, he might rule that they know who the NPCs are. Or perhaps he can let an impoverished noble like my main character, Argent, use his name to get out of a difficult situation, e.g. When confronted by a Cowled Wizard, Argent swore on the honor of House Meridian that they were not pirates, which the Cowled Wizard bought with a really high Diplomacy roll.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    What is their appeal?
    Saves time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    And one final issue - you can only use them with any given group once. Why would I pay all that money for something I get one use out of?
    Three months or more entertainment from one book is spectacularly good value for money. Compare the price of a module with how much you spend on an evening out.

    My Wednesday group's been playing the World's Largest Dungeon in our London pub for two and a half years (just finished this month). We spend more on drinks in one night than the DM spent on the module.

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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Modules, esp the recent hardcover ones WoTC put out (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Expedition to Undermountain, and Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Grayhawk), are pretty nice some times. Red Hand of Doom is excellent, as are the above three. I think that taking modules and adapting them to your own world is what they were made for.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Three months or more entertainment from one book is spectacularly good value for money. Compare the price of a module with how much you spend on an evening out.
    I rarely go out, so it's not really a useful comparison. Nor do I spend a great deal on RPG products, I've got loads of free stuff just from posting on RPG fora.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    My Wednesday group's been playing the World's Largest Dungeon in our London pub for two and a half years (just finished this month). We spend more on drinks in one night than the DM spent on the module.

    - Saph
    I don't know that WLD is really equivalent to most modules, which are usually 1-5 adventures in a single volume.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I use them on occasion, but I never run them as written. What I do is read through them for ideas I like and adapt those to fit my world. Then I throw out what I don't like and replace it with my own material.

    The attraction isn't low prep time, in my case. I probably prep as much with a module as I do for my own adventures, using this method. No, the benefit is that I get another source of ideas for my campaign. It shakes things up a little while still leaving me in control of the plot, NPCs' motivations, and so forth.

    In a good module, there's always something that's clever and that you hadn't thought of. So you take that and use it. Not instead of your own stuff, but alongside it.
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    As a DM, I've only just started anything to do with roleplaying (other than associated computer games) with 4th edition D&D, so whilst familiarising myself with the mechanics I've started running Keep on the Shadowfell.

    Please, don't look at me quite as disgusted as all that. I know KotSf has shortcomings in the way of the Roleplaying side of things (as opposed to the combat side), but I'm moderately intelligent and capable of thinking on my feet, so I reckon I'm perfectly capable of adding sufficient flavour to the mechanics to actually engage with my players- and this gives me a sound mechanical basis to go underneath my own roleplaying flavour whilst I undertake experiments with the combat system and become competent and confident with it.

    Once that module is finished, I fully intend to take things off in my own direction, only mining published modules for inspiration and/or monster/trap/hazard stat-blocks, but the firm foundation to build on was- and is- important to me as a starting point...
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Wow, quite a few people here who seem to know the best way for everyone to run their games.

    My thought is, do what's fun. When I DM, I use a mix of modules and my own content. The first campaign I DM'd was module heavy, because I didn't know the world yet, and wanted some help keeping things balanced and having a more rich background than I had time to come up with on my own (not just for the adventure, but for the entire world). I started with Sunless Citadel, ran some filler of my own creation and then moved into Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

    Anyone who says they can build something of the complexity of RttToEE without making it their full time job is either a genius, a liar, or has game sessions with a LONG amount of time between them. I was running sessions on a weekly basis - there is no way I could have run as good of a campaign without those modules.

    But I also added a lot to the module. There's an evil dragon you can run into well before you're ready for it if you go exactly the wrong way in RttToEE - but rather than just giving them a run or die situation (which would have resulted in some player deaths even if they did run), I had the dragon negotiate and use them to take care of some other nuisance NPCs that were more to their level. It also created an interesting roleplay dilemma for the Paladin when they decided to go back on their deal with the Dragon to stop him from killing innocents.

    Then the Dragon, who survived but had his horde stolen by the players, sought revenge by wiping out an orc village that had actually been working on friendly terms with the party (they were neutral, overall, in that village - not evil). And it culminated with a huge fight between the Dragon and his vassals (Kobold he recruited - I had to create those entirely), the town guard of the dwarf/human village the party was using as a base of operations, and the party. None of that was in the module - but none of it would have worked out as it did without the module.

    I also had Meepo - a kobold from Sunless Citadel who the party had made a deal with and then betrayed - come back as some kind of intelligent undead seeking revenge. We had quite an interesting battle with the party and hordes of zombies (the risen dead from the battle outlined above), with Meepo, the comical, pathetic Kobold ghost (or wight... or, I don't remember what) leading them.

    Also, I modified the ending of the module - forcing one PC to make the ultimate sacrifice, D&D style... the party had to decide who was going to be trapped for all eternity with an insane diety who has every reason to want revenge on them. Of course, I had a good diety step in, when no mortal could have saved that party member... and elevate them to a minor diety that players could choose to worship in my future campaigns. That was NOT in the module. :-)

    So my point is, why limit yourself to your own creativity? That seems almost as short sighted as limiting yourself to the pages of a module to me. Take the best of both, and your game will be more rich and fulfilling for everyone.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Time pretty much. When you are traveling 5 days a week I just don't have the time to make up everything on my own. I like pathfinders adventure arcs and will typically just tweak them to suit my own needs.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Anyone who says they can build something of the complexity of RttToEE without making it their full time job is either a genius, a liar, or has game sessions with a LONG amount of time between them. I was running sessions on a weekly basis - there is no way I could have run as good of a campaign without those modules.
    Therein lies a flawed assumption right there. Why would you want to build something that complicated? That's a lot more prep than I'd do for an entire campaign's worth of games, never mind a few sessions.

    The time taken to read a module is longer than I'd have spent getting a session ready.
    Last edited by Kiero; 2008-12-26 at 09:38 AM.
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Also keep in mind that there are 2 types of modules: plot-driven ones and adventure locales. I greatly appreciate adventure locales because you as the DM get to supply all the plot so you still have a lot of creativity in how you use it.

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    The best thing about modules? I can instantly interrupt my campaign and we can go do something else if everyone is bored with it. Say we're RPing, and everyone is getting bored with the talking. So I can whip out a fight heavy module, and be setup in less than five minutes, adjusting the encounter according to level and we can finish out the night beating things to death. And then finish the campaign another time. Having to create a scenario on the fly in that kind of situation isn't always optimal, since it's often hastily thought out and either too strong or too weak Being able to just grab a module is far more useful.

    Sometimes it's possible to work a regular module into a full campaign. I've actually managed to fit Tomb of Horrors into play and they didn't realize what it was until the statue. They thought it was simply another randomly designed dungeon. Partially because I'm fully willing to just grab maps from modules to supplement mine.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Wow, quite a few people here who seem to know the best way for everyone to run their games.
    Of course. Welcome to the internet
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I mostly make original stuff, but sometimes use modules. Either way, since I don't massively railroad, edit encounters and loot to be more appropriate for my party, and basically customize it for my own purposes, I can still make it fun for all involved parties. Sure there are always some bumps (Like in Thunderspire the Threatening Reach 4 Controller Monster that grabs when its attack hit... In Heroic.), but those help make it interesting.

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    How many of you use pre-made modules or campaigns? What is their appeal? I never understood it, but I see a lot of threads about common pre-made modules.
    I don't think I've ever finished a module as written. Most I've attempted seem to derail and head in unexpected directions fairly early. Consequently I prefer to use more dynamic planning methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    Is it something I should look into?
    Up to you really. Are you unhappy with your current methods of planning? Are the players? Modules save prep time for some GMs and spark ideas for others. If you're running short on either a module may be worth trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Wow, quite a few people here who seem to know the best way for everyone to run their games.

    <snip>

    Anyone who says they can build something of the complexity of RttToEE without making it their full time job is either a genius, a liar, or has game sessions with a LONG amount of time between them.

    <snip>

    So my point is, why limit yourself to your own creativity? That seems almost as short sighted as limiting yourself to the pages of a module to me. Take the best of both, and your game will be more rich and fulfilling for everyone.
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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    I've run modules from time to time, primarily because I rarely have time to fully flesh out my own material. I can usually make them fit into my own campaign fairly easily with minor modifications (DMG2 even has a section about that).

    I've only rarely used them, though, because I have a hard time buying them and there's a shortage of good free ones out there. This last one is something a friend of mine and I are trying to fix; we'll be setting up a repository of modules in the near future (public submissions will be accepted, if they meet certain quality standards). But that's another topic.

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    One of my DMs uses old 2.0 Ravenloft modules, and they're not really railroady. They're pretty okay. Not great, not bad. there are a few gems, like that one which turns the players into puppets (literal puppets).

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: [Any] Modules vs. Original

    Only tried to use modules a few times. I always ended up reaching a point where a scripted character acts in some way that goes against common sense - for the character - and it just derails the entire game, because my players are the type of people that like to know why the ubermage with superhuman intelligence is doing something completely stupid. "Because that's the script" doesn't go over too well.

    Never got a round to getting the WLD though. Sounds like it might be entertaining to work with that, but I never have an end to ideas of my own, so maybe not.

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