[3.5]Saint Template- Worth It?

[arguskos]

So, my DM has opened the possibility of me beginning play as a Saint (for +1 LA, if I desire it). I've been thinking about it, and am wondering if Saint is worth it, and if so, what's it best for?

I am currently thinking Human Saint Cleric 7, but that seems boring. Would Paladin fit better?

Of course: most any books allowed (sans ToB, ToM, MoI, XPH, and I think something else; newer DM, doesn't know the systems yet); starting level 8

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Saint is one of the better templates out there, even given it's +2 LA. I'd personally almost feel bad about taking it for +1 LA, but, if the chance is given, I'd jump on it.

[arguskos]

Saint is one of the better templates out there, even given it's +2 LA. I'd personally almost feel bad about taking it for +1 LA, but, if the chance is given, I'd jump on it.

What should I do with it? I personally LOVE spellcasters. I'm thinking I'll either go Cleric 7 or Wizard 5/something 2.

I can also see going a more martial route (certainly, the defenses the class grants are DAMN helpful), maybe Paladin 5/Pious Templar 2 (mettle=delicious) or somesuch.

[Talya]

What should I do with it? I personally LOVE spellcasters. I'm thinking I'll either go Cleric 7 or Wizard 5/something 2.

I can also see going a more martial route (certainly, the defenses the class grants are DAMN helpful), maybe Paladin 5/Pious Templar 2 (mettle=delicious) or somesuch.

What setting are you in?

For basics, I might go cleric/prestige paladin, which, while not nearly as good as a pure cleric, has far more casting ability than a basic paladin.

[Tengu_temp]

Going cleric is more martial than going paladin - your buffs make you the best core melee fighter, maybe apart from a druid shapeshifted into something cheesy.

[arguskos]

What setting are you in?

For basics, I might go cleric/prestige paladin.

Homebrew, but Forgotten Realms material is accepted. We don't use the prestige paladin/ranger/bard though, so that's right out. We are using the Pathfinder classes though, so were I to play a paladin, I wouldn't cry at night.

Tengu, while that is true, the rest of my party isn't that far along (read: the party cleric mostly heals us and tosses out a few minor damage spells; the fighter is happy with 1d8+16 damage, and the rogue is pleased if he can get off a vanilla sneak attack once or twice a fight). I COULD become a minor CoDzilla, but it wouldn't be much fun.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you become a spellcaster, consider Favored Soul. The Wisdom and Charisma boosts will both be really helpful, and the class is actually incredibly powerful. If you've got a healer already, toss around some damage spells and buff spells and become a warrior angel or sorts.

Bonus points for a flaming sword.

[jcsw]

One: Saint is actually quite broken if you have something in mind which takes advantage of its abilities.

Two: What do you mean by interesting? Fluff-interesting or crunch-interesting?

Fluff: I'd say a paladin is probably the most cliche choice for the template. Cleric isn't much better because of the heavy association with religion. Personally I'd go for one of the peripheral choices.

Quote wiki:

John A. Coleman S.J., associate professor of religion and sociology at the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, wrote in 1987 that saints across various cultures and religions have the following family resemblances 1. exemplary model 2. extraordinary teacher 3. wonder worker or source of benevolent power, 4. intercessor 5. possessor of a special and revelatory relation to the holy.[3]

In DnD, number 4 and 5 are rather irrelevant due the prominence of deities. Consider someone who believes inspiration to be a tool through which great acts can be achieved, and himself to be a conduit so that great things may be done for the good of all. (Bard)
Or someone who believes that all souls can be redeemed and be worked towards good, who sees the good in all, even those shunned by the gods. (Binder)

As for interesting crunch, the main features of this template is the +4 Cha and Cha to AC. Both a boon to a cha-centric class such as paladin, sorc, bard, binder, or marshal. An thing I like to do is to add Charisma to everything using various means. This is one of them.

They also get +2 DC on all spells and (su)s. Any class with spellcasting, invocations or similar benefits from this.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Actually, that gives me an idea...

What about a redeemed Warlock? Cha bonus is nice, and, while the other bonuses don't synergize to nicely, they're always nice to have. Also it's not so good it will overpower your group (which apparently isn't optimization heavy), but they're an (eldritch) blast to play.

[arguskos]

If you become a spellcaster, consider Favored Soul. The Wisdom and Charisma boosts will both be really helpful, and the class is actually incredibly powerful.

Ah. See, that's what I was talking about! I totally forgot about Favored Soul! Thanks Djinn.

One: Saint is actually quite broken if you have something in mind which takes advantage of its abilities.

Two: What do you mean by interesting? Fluff-interesting or crunch-interesting?

Fluff: I'd say a paladin is probably the most cliche choice for the template. Cleric isn't much better because of the heavy association with religion. Personally I'd go for one of the peripheral choices.

John A. Coleman S.J., associate professor of religion and sociology at the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, wrote in 1987 that saints across various cultures and religions have the following family resemblances 1. exemplary model 2. extraordinary teacher 3. wonder worker or source of benevolent power, 4. intercessor 5. possessor of a special and revelatory relation to the holy.

In DnD, number 4 and 5 are rather irrelevant due the prominence of deities. Consider someone who believes inspiration to be a tool through which great acts can be achieved, and himself to be a conduit so that great things may be done for the good of all. (Bard)
Or someone who believes that all souls can be redeemed and be worked towards good, who sees the good in all, even those shunned by the gods. (Binder)

As for interesting crunch, the main features of this template is the +4 Cha and Cha to AC. Both a boon to a cha-centric class such as paladin, sorc, bard, binder, or marshal. An thing I like to do is to add Charisma to everything using various means. This is one of them.

They also get +2 DC on all spells and (su)s. Any class with spellcasting, invocations or similar benefits from this.

I was thinking about fluff-wise, and so that Wiki quote is fascinating. Thanks!

I'm thinking I might give Favored Soul a shot. It seems like a solid choice (not overpoweringly powerful, still a caster, gets some neat powers, blends well with Saint). Human Saint Favored Soul 7 sounds about right. Are there any nice, Sainty PrC's I should be aware of?

Actually, that gives me an idea...

What about a redeemed Warlock? Cha bonus is nice, and, while the other bonuses don't synergize to nicely, they're always nice to have. Also it's not so good it will overpower your group (which apparently isn't optimization heavy), but they're an (eldritch) blast to play.

That's... a pretty neat idea. Esp with C. Mage's Theurges for Warlock (I am a HUGE sucker for Theurge classes). Hmm.. that seems like a winner too!

[Talya]

Homebrew, but Forgotten Realms material is accepted. We don't use the prestige paladin/ranger/bard though, so that's right out. We are using the Pathfinder classes though, so were I to play a paladin, I wouldn't cry at night.

Tengu, while that is true, the rest of my party isn't that far along (read: the party cleric mostly heals us and tosses out a few minor damage spells; the fighter is happy with 1d8+16 damage, and the rogue is pleased if he can get off a vanilla sneak attack once or twice a fight). I COULD become a minor CoDzilla, but it wouldn't be much fun.

Any particular religious flavor you're going for? I'll come up with some ideas...i love divine based characters, even without being a big fan of the cleric class.

[arguskos]

Any particular religious flavor you're going for? I'll come up with some ideas...i love divine based characters, even without being a big fan of the cleric class.

I've been thinking about a character who was burned for being a spellcaster in a land where such things don't work out well. Rather than hate those who burned him, he turned to the gods in his moment of peril, and asked for their forgiveness. The gods in turn blessed him as a Saint (saving him from the fire), and charged him with enlightening the unenlightened, etc. It's rather cliche, but I haven't done a religious character in a LOOOOONG time.

Basically, this guy is merciful beyond words (trusses up defeated foes, tends their wounds, and tries to convert them to the Light if possible; disarms them and releases them if not). He definitely has an interest in converting people from evil to good, and believes that it can only be achieved if they want it, so he uses logic to convince others, and leads by example a lot.

[UserClone]

WHOA. Had a neat idea for this, assuming your DM would let it fly. Sainted Hellbred Warlock FTW!

Edit: Oooh, a Saint Incarnate could be very neat, too!

[Talya]

I've been thinking about a character who was burned for being a spellcaster in a land where such things don't work out well. Rather than hate those who burned him, he turned to the gods in his moment of peril, and asked for their forgiveness. The gods in turn blessed him as a Saint (saving him from the fire), and charged him with enlightening the unenlightened, etc. It's rather cliche, but I haven't done a religious character in a LOOOOONG time.

Basically, this guy is merciful beyond words (trusses up defeated foes, tends their wounds, and tries to convert them to the Light if possible; disarms them and releases them if not). He definitely has an interest in converting people from evil to good, and believes that it can only be achieved if they want it, so he uses logic to convince others, and leads by example a lot.

So many options...what type of God and racial background are you thinking of, flavorwise?

[arguskos]

WHOA. Had a neat idea for this, assuming your DM would let it fly. Sainted Hellbred Warlock FTW!

Edit: Oooh, a Saint Incarnate could be very neat, too!

Oooooh, Saint Hellbred Warlock... oooooooo

Ok, so, the ideas so far:
-Human Saint Favored Soul 7
-Hellbred Saint Warlock 7 (replace Warlock 7 with Cleric (or Wizard) 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple (or Theurge) 1)
-Elven (to be different) Saint Paladin 7

These all sound... so FUN!!! I may have to replace my Dvati Force Missile Mage with this guy!

So many options...what type of God and racial background are you thinking of, flavorwise?

I'll PM you, there is some other info you may need.

[UserClone]

Please, I'm begging you, try to get the Hellbred Warlock ok'd...I want to hear about that sodarnbad!

[arguskos]

Please, I'm begging you, try to get the Hellbred Warlock ok'd...I want to hear about that sodarnbad!

Hahaha, I might just try him. I'm still up in the air about this guy. However, should I play a Hellbred Saint Anything, you'll know about it!

[UserClone]

SWEET!

Edit: Also, what he said, minus the Apostle bit.
V

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Gah! Warlock Eldritch Theurge with CLERIC?

Charisma synergy, man. Charisma synergy.

Favored Soul 4/Warlock 3, headed for Eldritch Theurge. A little less potent, but much cooler, in my opinion.

Also, with your ideas on his tactics, check out the Apostle of Peace.

[arguskos]

Gah! Warlock Eldritch Theurge with CLERIC?

Charisma synergy, man. Charisma synergy.

Favored Soul 4/Warlock 3, headed for Eldritch Theurge. A little less potent, but much cooler, in my opinion.

Also, with your ideas on his tactics, check out the Apostle of Peace.

Hmm. True. Slower progression, but good point.

I do love the Apostle of Peace, but I wouldn't mind the ability to just immolate someone in divine fire if they are really truly evil heathen bastards (devils/demons come to mind). I may go that way ANYWAYS, just for kicks. Still mulling it over.

[woodenbandman]

Bard, just 'cuz. If you can get level adjustment buyoff, go for Sublime Chord.

[arguskos]

Bard, just 'cuz. If you can get level adjustment buyoff, go for Sublime Chord.

Where can the LA buyoff rules be found, and can they be done w/o XP?

[UserClone]

The SRD, and no, the buyoff MUST cost XP, but it is a LOT less XP in the long run than would be keeping the LA.

[arguskos]

The SRD, and no, the buyoff MUST cost XP, but it is a LOT less XP in the long run than would be keeping the LA.

We don't use XP. This is an issue.

[UserClone]

If your DM doesn't use XP, he can infer when to allow the buyoff to occur by using the formula for when XP would normally allow it, which is roughly halfway through the level after CL[NOT ECL]=(LAx3). So you had LA+1, you'd lose your LA at about halfway through level 10 (ECL 11 if you include the LA), assuming you picked up the template at 6th (IIRC, the earliest level at which it can be gained.)

[Talya]

Favored Soul and Warlock make an interesting theurge, fluff-wise. It's quite flavorful. The split-casting ability between wisdom and charisma also isn't so bad, as saint gets abilities based on both wisdom and charisma as well. Of course, when you theurge, you aren't quite as good at either of them (and it's generally "a trap!"), which would be exacerbated by the LA of the saint template (even lowered to +1.)

If monk wasn't so bad mechanically, I'd also suggest Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred fist (CDiv -- sacred fist is far better than pure monk and solves many of the monk's problems, but its still far from optimal) if you wanted a more martial feel to go with your spellcasting.

[arguskos]

Favored Soul and Warlock make an interesting theurge, fluff-wise. It's quite flavorful. The split-casting ability between wisdom and charisma also isn't so bad, as saint gets abilities based on both wisdom and charisma as well. Of course, when you theurge, you aren't quite as good at either of them (and it's generally "a trap!"), which would be exacerbated by the LA of the saint template (even lowered to +1.)

If monk wasn't so bad mechanically, I'd also suggest Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred fist (CDiv -- sacred fist is far better than pure monk and solves many of the monk's problems, but its still far from optimal) if you wanted a more martial feel to go with your spellcasting.

Yeah, I know that Theurges are massive traps, but considering my group, I think I can get away with it. The only thing I feel somewhat bad about is our lack of arcane casting (rogue, cleric, fighter, and me [this character is not an arcanist by any stretch of the imagination).

Monk/F. Soul/S. Fist would be nice... except that Monk is so bad I would just sob. If I can find a fix for Monk that keeps the feel I like, I might do that, actually. (Can a monk willingly, w/o penalty, deal non-lethal with their fists?)

[UserClone]

Actually, Warlocks have some surprisingly potent Invocations, considering they can be cast, and in some cases last, all day long.

Also, Monks can deal nonlethal with no issue (read the description of Improved Unarmed Strike).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Actually, Warlocks have some surprisingly potent Invocations, considering they can be cast, and in some cases last, all day long.

Hell yeah! Shatter, Walk Unseen, Fell Flight, and Bestow Curse all day long is good enough for me.

[Talya]

If I can find a fix for Monk that keeps the feel I like, I might do that, actually. (Can a monk willingly, w/o penalty, deal non-lethal with their fists?)

Well, Sacred Fist does something that most fixes for monk also do -- it's a Full-BAB martial class.

Note that as the monk/sacred fist Wisdom-to-AC bonus is untyped, and the saint template Wisdom-to-AC bonus is insight, they would stack as well, meaning you'd get double your wisdom bonus to armor class.

Since you're already using book of exalted deeds, Insightful Strike (Wisdom to Attack) would be nice here as well. You wouldn't need to take monk very far, or at all, really. The qualification for it requires stunning fist, which any class can take, but monks get at level 1 as a bonus feat, and is likely worth the dip merely to add flurry and +2 to all saves and the extra level of unarmed damage progression. If your homebrewed divine pantheon can grant "improved unarmed strike" for the favored soul divine proficiency, there's nothing preventing you from skipping monk altogether in a favored soul/sacred fist build.