[4e] Tripping and Disarming

[Saintjebus]

So, I was lurking on the playground, and I saw someone mention that 4e didn't have mechanics for basic tripping and disarming, apart from "status effect" powers, which are limited. I thought that this was an unfortunate oversight, so I set out to correct it. How do these look?

Melee Basic Trip Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Target is prone
Special: This attack is a basic attack


Melee Basic Disarm Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Target is disarmed, and loses access to powers which require a specific weapon to function. Note: This does not make them lost all "Weapon" Powers.
Special: Target adds Weapon proficiencies, Feat bonuses that apply to attacks, and Magical enhancements to Ref defense for this attack.


So, what does the playground think about this? Do they seem balanced? What could be done to improve them?

[Kurald Galain]

The problem with the second power is that it isn't necessarily clear which powers "require a specific weapon to function".

Note that the "target" is, in pretty much every case, a monster, and that a monster does not have "Weapon proficiencies, Feat bonuses that apply to attacks, and Magical enhancements to Ref defense". This is the result of 4E using different rules for NPCs than for PCs.

[Townopolis]

The only problem I see is that they're both very nice for rogues, but very unuseful for anyone else, in fact, they almost seem to be designed to give rogues an edge in combat against fighters, seeing as martial types and defenders are most likely to suffer from losing their weapons.

Perhaps trip should be changed to use Str.

And if one of them targeted something other than Ref, that would be nice.

[1of3]

Rogue Powers requrie specific weapons and some Fighter Powers. Whenever a monster requires a weapon, the stat block will say so. That's not a problem. Actually, this sentence isn't necessary because the respective powers will say that a specific weapon is required.

On the other hand, it should say in which square the lost weapons will be.

Also characters might want to disarm a character with an Implement. I wouldn't limit the effect to weapons.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Disarming will completely negate almost all non-elite brutes and soldiers, since they tend to rely on one, usually Weapon, power, and will not even be a credible annoyance with just unarmed melee basic attacks.

Conversely, if monsters just carry multiple weapons, disarming will be pointless.

It just ain't balanced.

Tripping looks fine.

[Saintjebus]

Disarming will completely negate almost all non-elite brutes and soldiers, since they tend to rely on one, usually Weapon, power, and will not even be a credible annoyance with just unarmed melee basic attacks.

That's why I made it an encounter power - players won't simply be able to go around disarming every monster they meet.

How about this for the disarming?

Melee Basic Disarm Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex or Str vs Fort
Hit: Target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of his next turn.
Special: This attack does not function against creatures that are not using a weapon or implement, i.e. claws, bite, etc.

[Yakk]

Melee Basic Trip Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Target is prone
Special: This attack is a basic attack

I'd do the following:
Melee Basic Trip Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature of the same size or smaller
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Make a secondary attack against the same target
Miss: You provoke an opportunity action from the target
Secondary Attack: Str vs Fort
Secondary Hit: Target is prone
Secondary Miss: You are prone
Special: This attack is a basic attack. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack rolls for each square the target has been pushed, pulled or slid since the start of their last round.

Now it has costs...

Melee Basic Disarm Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Target is disarmed, and loses access to powers which require a specific weapon to function. Note: This does not make them lost all "Weapon" Powers.
Special: Target adds Weapon proficiencies, Feat bonuses that apply to attacks, and Magical enhancements to Ref defense for this attack.

Melee Basic Disarm Attack
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Make a secondary attack against the target.
Miss: You provoke an opportunity action from the target.
Secondary attack: Str vs Fortitude
Secondary Hit: Target's weapon is dropped in one square adjacent to target of your choice.
Secondary Miss: Your weapon is dropped in one square adjacent to you, of target's choice.
Special: This is considered a basic attack. Target gains a bonus equal to their proficiency bonus to their defenses in this attack. Target gains a bonus equal to half of their weapon enchantment, rounded up, to their defenses to this attack.

...

The above is probably too complex. But I think the OP proposal is, quite honestly, far too tempting to try.

The trip choice is only smart if the target has already been thrown around.

The disarm choice is a high-risk move, so it will only be done rarely.

[JackMage666]

Alrighty, I'll give this a shot. My theory is that the disarm is based more in parrys and deflecting blows, so the foe needs to miss you first, and you seize the moment.

Combat Disarm
You parry an attack, and force the opponent to lose his grip.
Encounter
Immediate Reaction - Melee Weapon
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you misses you with an attack that targets your AC defense.
Attack: Strength vs Reflex
Hit: The opponent is disarmed of his weapon. Place the weapon up to your Dexterity modifier squares away. The target behaves as if unarmed until he retrieves his weapon, if he chooses to do so.
Special: An opponent weilding a two-handed weapon gains a +2 bonus to his Reflex defense for this attack. A character weilding a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with the versatile trait in both hands, you gain a +2 power bonus to the attack roll.
Special: You may makes this attack while unarmed, but you take a -4 penalty on the attack roll.

Also, opening up this type of attack calls for a number of new magic items (ones that increase the attack for disarms attempt or trip attempts, and items that increase your defense versus them.)
EDIT - I didn't add the Weapon keyword on purpose - I didn't want Enhancement and Proficiency bonuses added to this attack roll.

[Kurald Galain]

The above is probably too complex.

Yes, it is.

The problem with basic attacks (and I consider this a design flaw in 4E) is that only certain classes can, effectively, use them.

[Saintjebus]

The main difference between the two builds here, is that if it is a standard action basic attack, then you can choose to use it when a warlord gives you a basic attack. If it is an immediate reaction, then you have to hope you get to use it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The main difference between the two builds here, is that if it is a standard action basic attack, then you can choose to use it when a warlord gives you a basic attack. If it is an immediate reaction, then you have to hope you get to use it.

More importantly, you can use it on an OA

I think Yakk's description is good (make it a risky manuever) but I would make these changes:

TRIP

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Melee Basic Trip Attack
Encounter
Standard Action Melee
Target: one creature of the same size or smaller
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Make a secondary attack against the same target
Miss: Your opponent can make a free melee basic attack against you
Secondary Attack: Str vs Fort
Secondary Hit: Target is prone
Secondary Miss: You are prone
Special: This attack is a basic attack. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack rolls for each square the target has been pushed, pulled or slid since the start of their last round.

DISARM

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Melee Basic Disarm Attack
Encounter
Standard Action Melee
Target: one creature
Attack: Dex vs Ref
Hit: Make a secondary attack against the target.
Miss: Your opponent can make a free melee basic attack against you
Secondary attack: Str vs Fortitude
Secondary Hit: Target's weapon is dropped in one square adjacent to target of your choice.
Secondary Miss: Your weapon is dropped in one square adjacent to you, of target's choice.
Special: This is considered a basic attack. Target gains a bonus equal to their proficiency bonus to their defenses in this attack. Target gains a bonus equal to half of their weapon enchantment, rounded up, to their defenses to this attack.

Explanation
(1) You can't make an Opportunity Attack on your own turn, so when using Trip/Disarm as an OA, you wouldn't suffer any risk. This change is basically cosmetic.

(2) Removed the Weapon keyword because Proficiency Bonus + NAD = too easy. Yes, this is a bit weird for Disarm, but unless you want to do a balancing test (Attack gets +Proficiency, Defender gets +Proficiency to NAD) you have to get rid of the Weapon keyword to not make it a nuke power. And frankly, I think these are complicated enough as it is, so let's not start adding extra modifiers when they won't make much difference

I admit that this is still rather complicated for a Basic Attack, but I think it works nicely if you want to have Trip and Disarm. By making both require STR and DEX, you make it more difficult than a normal Basic Attack for anyone to do, and by putting in the Miss effects you make them sufficiently risky to not become like Improved Disarm/Trip was in 3E.

[Mauril Everleaf]

One problem with Disarming... It's already a level 17 Fighter power.

Exorcism of Steel Fighter Attack 17
You chop at your foe’s hand, causing a grievous injury and forcing
him to drop his weapon.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target drops
one weapon it is holding. You can choose to catch the
dropped weapon in a free hand or have it land on the
ground at your feet (in your square).

Sorry, but it already exists and giving a level 17 power to a 1st level character is just wrong.

Tripping, that one seems fine as far as I can tell.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Everleaf, that fighter power does 2[W] and the fighter can catch the weapon. The above suggestions do absolutely no damage and the weapon just falls, where it can be picked up again. In yakk's your own weapon is actually dropped on a miss. I don't see a problem.

[TheOOB]

Here is how I would handle it.

Melee Basic Knockdown
At-Will, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength -4 vs. Fort
Hit: Target is knocked prone
Miss: Target may make a melee basic attack against you.
Special: This counts as a basic melee attack. You take an additional -2 to the attack roll if the target stands on four or more legs.

Melee Basic Disarm
At-Will, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity -4 vs. Reflex
Hit: One object held in the targets hands is dropped in a square of your choice adjacent to both you and the target.
Miss: Target may make a melee basic attack against you.
Special: This counts as a basic melee attack. You take an additional -2 to the attack roll if the target is holding the item in two hands.

The -4 penalty is to represent that doing this without special training is difficult and unreliable, and to keep the technique simple but not overpowered.

[Asbestos]

Can only PCs disarm, or should the disarm attack be added to the stat blocks of sentient monsters as well?

[Saintjebus]

The -4 penalty is to represent that doing this without special training is difficult and unreliable, and to keep the technique simple but not overpowered.

So this would open up something else

Feat: Improved Knockdown
Heroic Tier
Benefit: You can make a knockdown attempt without a penalty
Normal: You take a -4 penalty to knockdown attempts

Feat Greater Knockdown
Paragon Tier
Prerequisites: Improved Knockdown
Benefit: You gain a +2 feat bonus to knockdown attempts.
Normal: You take a -4 penalty to knockdown attempts


Feat: Improved Disarm
Heroic Tier
Benefit: You can make a disarm attempt without a penalty
Normal: You take a -4 penalty to disarm attempts

Feat: Greater Disarm
Paragon Tier
Prerequisites: Improved Disarm
Benefit: You gain a +2 feat bonus to disarm attempts
Normal: You take a -4 penalty to disarm attempts

[Alteran]

Taking a bit from everything I've seen, I suggest the following for tripping.

Trip - Basic Attack
With a quick jerk of your leg, you bring an enemy crashing to the ground.
At-Will
Standard Action - Melee
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude or Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: The target is knocked prone. If they are moving when they are hit by this attack, they stop moving.
Miss: You fall prone.
Special: You take a -2 penalty to trip attempts against creatures who are walking or standing on more than two legs.

Heroic Tier Feats

Improved Trip
Prerequisite: Str 13 or Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +4 feat bonuses to attack rolls made to trip a creature.

Balanced Trip
Prerequisite: Str 13 or Dex 13
Benefit: When you miss on a trip attack, you can immediately make a saving throw to avoid falling prone.

Paragon Tier Feats

Agile Trip
Prerequisite: Str 15 or Dex 15
Benefit: When you miss on a trip attack, you do not fall prone.

[Yakk]

The double-test, together with the penalties on a miss, more than makes up for your proficiency bonus.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The double-test, together with the penalties on a miss, more than makes up for your proficiency bonus.

See, my concern is making Disarm/Trip something that a PC would want to do on every Encounter, rather than as a "sometime power." Now, I haven't crunched the numbers, but just looking at the sheer effectiveness of Piercing Strike makes me nervous about adding in the proficiency bonus. I don't feel like Disarm/Trip should be something that every person tries in every combat - why wouldn't a Skirmisher/Rogue or Soldier/Fighter do it in every combat if they get to make, effectively, a STR+3 or DEX+3 attack versus a NAD?

Of course, if you don't allow some method for to-hit enhancement (and I'm thinking that Paragon/Epic Feats might be the way to go with that), then you soon find yourself unable to even think of hitting your enemies.

Yakk, you're pretty good with numbers - have you crunched them? What do they look like?

[Yakk]

Chance at hitting twice in a row with a +2 to hit (reflecting attacking a non-AC defense):

1 - (18/20- P)^2 = 76/400 - 36/20P + P^2

Extra over attacking AC:

76/400 -56/20P + P^2
This is positive when:
P^2 + 76/400 = 56/20P
or, when P =
56/20 +/- 53/20
---------------
2

=> P = 1.5/20 is the point of intersection (as is P=54.5/20, which is outside of our domain).

As the P^2 term is positive, that means _outside_ of this interval your ability to connect with a trip/disarm is greater than your ability to connect with a normal attack.

At P=.5 (50% chance to connect vs AC), we'll presume the Reflex/Fort chance is 60%. Then you have a 36% chance of tripping or disarming your target.

You have a:
40% chance of taking a basic attack for your troubles,
24% chance of being tripped/disarmed for your troubles,
36% chance of tripping/disarming your target (assuming the target isn't proficient in the case of disarm, and has no magical weapon)

If the target has an equal-proficiency weapon, that has a +4 enchantment, your situation looks sort of like:
50% chance of taking a basic attack for your troubles.
25% chance of being disarmed
25% chance of disarming your target

I will admit this might be "too good", if the target is crippled without their weapon. It takes about 4 hits, or 8 actions, to take out a target -- it only takes an average of 3 attempts to disarm them. On the other hand, in that time you will be taking extra attacks (an average of +1.2 extra attacks), and you might lose your weapon (0.72 times). If getting back your weapon only costs you one attack, that works out to you taking about 5 attacks worth of damage in order to disarm a target in solo combat, as opposed to 8 to defeat them (or an average of 6 to make them surrender -- 4 to bloody, 2 to intimidate).

Defeated or surrendered foes are weaker than disarmed ones (and definately weaker than tripped ones), so ... this doesn't seem so good that you'd always want to do it. It is slightly faster on average than killing your target.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I will admit this might be "too good", if the target is crippled without their weapon. It takes about 4 hits, or 8 actions, to take out a target -- it only takes an average of 3 attempts to disarm them. On the other hand, in that time you will be taking extra attacks (an average of +1.2 extra attacks), and you might lose your weapon (0.72 times). If getting back your weapon only costs you one attack, that works out to you taking about 5 attacks worth of damage in order to disarm a target in solo combat, as opposed to 8 to defeat them (or an average of 6 to make them surrender -- 4 to bloody, 2 to intimidate).

AFB at the moment, but didn't 4E get rid of the "OA for picking up stuff" rule? Even with the DEX scatter rule, it seems like most people will just need to Shift (Move), pick up (Minor) and Attack (Standard) to defeat a Disarm. I suppose if you manage to scatter the weapon down a hole or behind you it might worry your opponent. Of course, since most enemies don't actually use weapons, these rules are going to harm PCs more than monsters.

That said, I am intrigued by this set-up. I'll give it a shot in my game and see how it turns out.

[Blackfang108]

The problem with basic attacks (and I consider this a design flaw in 4E) is that only certain classes can, effectively, use them.

Unlike in, say, 3.x, where the Wizard's basic attacks were just as potent as the Barbarian's?

Just wondering what on Toril you're getting at.

EDIT:

Also, our group decided to make trip a Dex v Reflex attack, plain and simple.

Knociking something prone isn't as awesome as it used to be. (for the most part.)

[Tadanori Oyama]

When you knock someone down you attack Fortitude, not Reflex. Your trying to force their legs out from under them or push them off their balance.

[JaxGaret]

Here's something you might think about incorporating, Yakk and Oracle: granting CA to anyone you attempt to Disarm or Trip.

[Kurald Galain]

Unlike in, say, 3.x, where the Wizard's basic attacks were just as potent as the Barbarian's?

3E is widely considered unbalanced, and fixing that has been one of the major design goals for 4E. It would make sense, then, that in 4E every class could perform OAs of some sort. I don't see why a wizard or warlock would resort to stabbing people with his dagger as an OA, since stabbing people is precisely what he's not good at.

[Oracle_Hunter]

3E is widely considered unbalanced, and fixing that has been one of the major design goals for 4E. It would make sense, then, that in 4E every class could perform OAs of some sort. I don't see why a wizard or warlock would resort to stabbing people with his dagger as an OA, since stabbing people is precisely what he's not good at.

I guess he could be a Battle Mage then, and hit people with his Dexterity Magic

Seriously though, the reason that everyone isn't good at OAs is because OAs are basic attacks - y'know, those attacks that people use without any real training? Powers are differentiated by classes because each represents a specific style of combat training, and not everyone bothers with maximizing attacks of opportunities. Wizards, for instance, are far more interested in zapping folks from a distance, or nuking a bunch of them close up.

This is reinforced by the Fighter Class Powers. They are the only class which is focused on these sort of chance attacks, and this is reflected by their special training with OAs (Combat Superiority) and their ability to find openings that nobody else can find (Combat Challenge).

[Ninetail]

You might be overthinking this a little.

Tripping is pretty easy already. DMG p. 42. Depending on how exactly your character is trying to trip the enemy, choose a stat to base the roll on and a defense. Dex vs. Reflex and Str vs. Fortitude are the most likely, but there might be others. Decide whether damage is appropriate, and if so how much. A hit knocks prone and maybe pushes or slides the target a square or two, if that's appropriate.

Based on the circumstances, you can decide whether the action provokes an opportunity attack or not, assess bonuses or penalties to hit, and whatever else.

It's a standard action, not a basic attack. Making it a basic attack has lots of unintended consequences. For instance, tripping as an OA, or as part of a charge (a trip would be better than a bull rush).

Disarming, on the other hand, is not something that should be done trivially. It's not a mistake that the only power in the book that does it is paragon-level. Being disarmed will cripple a weapon-using combatant. You can run with it as an improvised attack, on occasion, but if they want to do it more often, there should be a pretty high cost for that. If they complain, remind them that if it's easy for them, it'll be easy for their enemies, too. And stick to that.

[Panda-s1]

What might be an interesting idea is to make a multiclass class (kinda like spellscarred in FR) in which you take a multiclass feat that opens up a bunch of unarmed attacks that do things like disarming and tripping. An article in Dragon magazine had a similar article about gladiatorial fights which detailed the use of whips, bolas, and net. While the weapons themselves were pretty cool superior weapons, they each had a multiclass feat attached to them. In this case though you have to take specific feats to get a power related to a weapon (i.e. there's a feat that lets you trip things with a whip), unlike basic multiclassing where you blow a feat to replace a power you already have.

But this could allow one to have powers that do more than just trip and disarm people alone. Just my 2cp.

[Oracle_Hunter]

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You might be overthinking this a little.

Tripping is pretty easy already. DMG p. 42. Depending on how exactly your character is trying to trip the enemy, choose a stat to base the roll on and a defense. Dex vs. Reflex and Str vs. Fortitude are the most likely, but there might be others. Decide whether damage is appropriate, and if so how much. A hit knocks prone and maybe pushes or slides the target a square or two, if that's appropriate.

Based on the circumstances, you can decide whether the action provokes an opportunity attack or not, assess bonuses or penalties to hit, and whatever else.

It's a standard action, not a basic attack. Making it a basic attack has lots of unintended consequences. For instance, tripping as an OA, or as part of a charge (a trip would be better than a bull rush).

Disarming, on the other hand, is not something that should be done trivially. It's not a mistake that the only power in the book that does it is paragon-level. Being disarmed will cripple a weapon-using combatant. You can run with it as an improvised attack, on occasion, but if they want to do it more often, there should be a pretty high cost for that. If they complain, remind them that if it's easy for them, it'll be easy for their enemies, too. And stick to that.

This is very sensible.

The reason why we didn't just use DMG 42 is because we were trying to make a standardized attack rather than rely on ad hoc rulings. That said, I think you can make your idea work pretty well - model it on the Bull Rush action, for instance.

Disarm certainly shouldn't be trivial, but it does seem kind of silly that even very good swordsmen (LV 10) can't knock a blade out of the hand of a novice fighter. I think the risk of losing your own blade (along with removing proficiency bonuses) will probably balance that well.

How about we make Trip a STR/DEX v. Fort and Disarm a STR/DEX v. Reflex? That way all Martial classes will be able to Disarm.

[DaveL]

Hey guys;

This is what I would do for a trip:

Trip
<colour>
At-Will
Standard Action * Melee
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: The target is knocked prone.

That's not a big deal, he can just get up. In fact, it's pretty lame unless you're a Weakened melee-type fighting an opponent your Rogue can't flank.

Disarm is pretty simple, too:

Disarm
<colour>
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action * Melee
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. AC +2
Hit: The target drops his weapon in his square.

That's not that big a deal, either, since you can't pick up his weapon, and the target can just pick his weapon up on his turn as a minor action. Now if you Push (Slide or Pull) him off his square, then pick up his weapon, a winner is you. I think that works nicely with how 4E works - teamwork for the win!