3.5 Barbarian Newbie

[Razaele]

Hey guys! I recently started playing DnD and I gotta say, I'm not disappointed. I'm having a blast so far, but there are still quite a few things that I feel I am not very good at. Does anyone have any gameplay tips for a level 2 Barbarian?

[Zen Master]

Hey guys! I recently started playing DnD and I gotta say, I'm not disappointed. I'm having a blast so far, but there are still quite a few things that I feel I am not very good at. Does anyone have any gameplay tips for a level 2 Barbarian?

Where are you now - from a gameplay point of view?

At level two, all you have to do is carry a big two-hander, use power attack and rage. And know the rules for how strength bonus, power attack and two-handers work.

But ... if you're already doing that, I dunno. It also makes a big difference what books you use.

[SoD]

A level two barbarian? Simple. Wait for combat. Rage. Charge. ???. Profit.

[Malacode]

That plus replacing your Fast Movement class feature with Pounce. You lose a little speed (Ok, a decent amount of speed) in order to make a full attack as part of a charge. So worth it, expecially at lower levels. Check with your DM to make sure it's ok with him/her though. I believe it's called Lion Totem barbarian or somesuch, forget which book. Apart from that, you're prtty much covered by the fact that you're a barbarian, and it's impossible to make a barbarian bad. Believe me, I've tried

[Eldariel]

Tips? Pick up a reach weapon. Use Power Attack whenever you feel you can afford it. Charge a lot and let the reach protect you from guys other than the one you charged. If you can use some alternative class features, consider being a Wolf-Totem Barbarian instead of the standard Jaguar-Totem Barbarian. Tripping is really good. If you can't, but you have 13 Int, getting Improved Trip as a feat is definitely worth it with a Barbarian's Strength. Place your skills in Survival, Listen and whatever (Intimidate, Ride, Handle Animal, etc. are handy). I wouldn't bother much with the Strength-related skills since you have insane strength already and Barbarians wear light armor.

If this is a Core-only books game (that is, just PHB, MM and DMG; if you have more, just tell which and the advice can be far more comprehensive), your feats should probably look like "Power Attack, Combat Expertise [if applicable], Improved Trip [if you can take Combat Expertise], Cleave", and the rest don't really have that much of an impact. You could be picking Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Blind-Fight, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus, Track and the like from then on; Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain would be worth it as a really good feat, but might not be up your alley stylistically (and Guisarme and Glaive are both fine weapons already). If you have a decent Dex, you could also pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot later to learn to shoot should need be (just get two bows, one for your Rage Str and other for your standard Str).


In social sitiuations, stand back and look menacing unless someone requires some toughing up (Intimidate). In wilderness, you're the king (especially if you go with the Wolf-Totem; it would get you Track eventually). Act like one. In combat, charge, but with some care for your allies' well being. Try to position yourself so that your reach prevents opponents from reaching the squishier party members; you have D12 HD and huge Con (hopefully), so you can afford to take some punishment, and when opponents stay near, beating them up will be easier for you too, so the entire party profits. Tripping is awesome even if you don't take Improved Trip; as long as you do it with a weapon, you won't get tripped in return (just keep a spare weapon or two along if you fail the check and have to drop the weapon) and it allows you to stop opponent from moving. The provoke Attack of Opportunity if the stand up or Crawl, and they have -4 to AC and attacks from the ground so they are thoroughly screwed.

[Spiryt]

And what do you want from your Barbarian?

It's often skipped but important - Eldariel gave you a really nice character concept, but maybe you want something else?

You haven't said.

[Miraqariftsky]

Yes, in my opinion, one of the few drawbacks a barbarian has is the illiteracy--- and that can be easily fixed by burning a couple of skill points.

If you're only given Core sources, and the race you're using is a demihuman, then go for a glaive and spiked gauntlets. The glaive lets you control a large area, cutting down foes before most even get a chance to swing at you. The spiked gauntlets are for taking out the ones that get through the glaive. Or heck, if you're extending your suspension of disbelief (because drawing a two-hander in close quarters would give your opponent more than enough time to finish you off), you could bally well pull out a falchion for the ones that get past your polearm... Note the variety of crit ranges and damage dice.

If your barbarian is human... well, pack it in with a greatsword or some other heavy ol' two-hander. Personally, I prefer the Power-Attack-and-Cleave variant.

If for flavour or plot reasons, you don't want to make the classic "brute with huge weapon" image, then you could always make a TWFer or maybe a savage grappler or a shield-basher.

As the posters above me have said, you could seldom go wrong with a barbarian. The best all-around barbaric build is still that of a two-hander, though. The most feat you definitely shouldn't go without is Power Attack. After that? If your character has a special sentimental attachment to his/her weapon or maybe s/he has trained especially long and hard with that, you could pop for Weapon Focus. Pick up Track if you're going to be doing more following than fighting. The feats Extra Rage and Extend Rage will let you capitalize on your primary class feature.

Also, while raging, try to remember that you might run out of the temporary HP that you get while raging--- thus when the rage ends, your character dies. Hehehe, yesss, and try to remember that while raging, you may have huge bonuses to Str and Con, but never forget that -2 to AC. There was a time that I forgot that AC penalty, thought I was good, and got dropped to -6 HP from a full 16 in one round.

And on a non-gaming note... MABUHAY, KABAYAN! MALIGAYANG PASKO SA IYO!

[Telonius]

One piece of gameplay advice - during one campaign, I made an Excel file for a friend of mine. It had the attack and damage listed for normal one-hand, normal two-hand, rage one-hand, and rage two-hand; for Power Attack zero up to the maximum. Having this with you beforehand will save you a lot of "math time" during the gaming session. If you save it in Excel and use the formulas, it's fairly simple to update it when you level up, or gain a weapon with a higher bonus.

[Razaele]

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies. Oh sorry, I forgot to include some specifics. Well, like a few of you suggested, I'm using a Greatsword, mainly because I like it's offensive capabilities. I'm human, and my first 2 feats are Power Attack and Cleave. My stats are:

Strength - 16
Dexterity - 14
Constitution - 16
Intelligence - 10
Wisdom - 10
Charisma - 8

Heh. My Barbarian fails at social skills. So far, my party members are a human monk, and an elf ranger. We're all at level 2, and fairly new at this game. I'd really like to go for an offensive Barbarian build, and yes, Improved trip looked pretty cool, but my int score is too low... Oh well. I'm thinking about getting a few other offensive skills like Improved Critical. Great Cleave, etc. Any suggestions? Also...

@Nexus-R.C._Mina - Mabuhay! Magandang Pasko at bagong taon sa iyo! Grabe, hindi ko akalain na makakakita ako ng kabayan dito. Haha! Pre, alam mo ba kung saan ako pwedeng bumili ng dice set? Gusto ko sana kaso sa mga Neutral Grounds wala na eh.

[Eldariel]

Ask if you could use the Wolf-Totem Barbarian I linked. It's official, freely available material (like all of http://www.d20srd.com - it's what WoTC has published publically), and Wolf-Totem Barbarian trades Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense for Improved Trip (without having to meet the prerequisites, in honor of the Wolves' combat tactic) and Track. You just happen to make the first trade (lose Uncanny Dodge, gain Improved Trip) on level 2 too.

I suggest reach weapon anyways, even if you don't get Improved Trip; it's worth giving up a bit of damage for to make more attacks of opportunity (pick up Combat Reflexes later on, once you have more free feats). Everyone likes extra attacks. And if you do use Wolf-Totem Barbarian, Guisarme or Glaive makes for an excellent weapon.

[Darrin]

Hey guys! I recently started playing DnD and I gotta say, I'm not disappointed. I'm having a blast so far, but there are still quite a few things that I feel I am not very good at. Does anyone have any gameplay tips for a level 2 Barbarian?

Ask your DM if you can use the "Skilled City Dweller" alternate class feature from the Cityscape Web Enhancement to switch Ride as a class skill to Tumble (much more useful than Ride).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

To avoid fatigue, pick up potions of lesser restoration (300 GP) or encourage the party's cleric/druid to have that spell handy. A Sphere of Awakening (Magic Item Compendium, p. 186, 1800 GP) is also quite handy, and can remove fatigue/exhaustion 1/day and render you immune to fatigue/exhaustian for 10 minutes.

If you have the skill points available, put some ranks in Handle Animal. Animals are cheap, and can be trained to aid your attacks or defense (attack roll DC 10, which is usually easier to hit than most opponents, +2 to your AC or your next attack). Multiple animals using aid another stack, so you can build up a large bonus with a handful of smaller animals. Mules are also cheap (8 gp), large creatures with a +9 grapple bonus, and can be trained to grapple+pin, which your party rogue will love (grappled opponents lose their dex bonus to everyone except who they are grappled with).

You don't have to be a wizard to use battlefield control tactics. Use equipment, alchemical items, and terrain to slow down or put your enemy in a bad position. Smokesticks can provide cover/concealment as well as deny sneak attack damage. Soak a blanket in oil, light it on fire. Nets, razor nets, and lassos can be thrown to reduce an enemy's Dexterity or make them waste an action. Don't bother wasting an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, just throw them with the -4 nonproficiency penatly, it's a touch attack and you have a high BAB. Spread caltrops to deny a square or reduce an enemy's movement (and Jumping Caltrops only cost 250 GP, Magic Item Compendium p. 162). Keep some bags of flour handy to throw at invisible opponents.

[ericgrau]

With PA and cleave you're a real mook killer. Keep that in mind and take on the masses. Against tougher opponents they're not as effective, but you can still cleave when you finally get one and you can usually still dump 2 AB into PA. More might just make you miss too often and even with 2 AB you're losing most of that +4 damage to misses. Again that's against non-mooks. Hunt down mooks whenever possible and go to town with PA & cleave.

I'd grab weapon focus. Hitting 16ish times out of 20 instead of 15ish ain't shabby at all. Often better than a lot of other choices. Improved critical is very good too, and if you don't see too many other good choices then grab improved initiative. Those are all good for general purpose carnage. So when I say "other good choices" I mean you should have a specific & frequent use for the feat in mind. Like great cleave vs. large numbers of very weak mooks. If you can't use such a feat frequently, then a more general purpose feat is better.

I wouldn't automatically get a greatsword. Even though other two-handed martial weapons have slightly less damage, every single one has some advantage to make up for it. At the very least I'd consider the falchion, because it'll outpace the greatsword in damage once you get improved critical later and it's only a hair behind in the mean time (crits already make up for some of the difference). Other weapons add things like reach and what not.

Even though you can't get the feats for special attacks like trip and disarm, I'd strongly consider using them from time to time against easy targets. Like disarm vs. an archer: He doesn't get an attack of opportunity against you, you get a +4, he gets a -4 and his melee AB probably sucks. To recognize other possibilities, you'll have to learn the various special attack rules.

Anyway whatever you do, have fun.

[Telonius]

Great Cleave isn't that great of a feat. It's not very often that more than two opponents will be within your reach, and even less often that you'll be able to kill two of them in a row with one hit.

Assuming Core only?

3 - Combat Reflexes
6 - Improved Initiative
9 - Improved Critical (Greatsword)
12 - Iron Will
15 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
18 - Dodge

[Darrin]

I'm thinking about getting a few other offensive skills like Improved Critical. Great Cleave, etc. Any suggestions? Also...

Improved Critical... some people will claim that buying a Keen weapon is better, but I prefer taking Improved Critical, which still works if you lose your Keen weapon. Can't take it until 9th level, though.

Avoid Great Cleave. The odds of you ever getting to use it are so extremely small, it's just not worth it.

For your 6th level feat... Leap Attack is the favorite go-to for extra damage. Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper is also a powerful combo if you want more damage multipliers. If you're stuck with core-only, though... Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes are both pretty solid. Leadership can also be pretty powerful, if you want a cohort or a special mount/companion.

[ericgrau]

Great Cleave isn't that great of a feat. It's not very often that more than two opponents will be within your reach, and even less often that you'll be able to kill two of them in a row with one hit.

Assuming Core only?

3 - Combat Reflexes
6 - Improved Initiative
9 - Improved Critical (Greatsword)
12 - Iron Will
15 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
18 - Dodge

Great cleave: 95% of the time I agree. Only get it if you can frequently kill 3 mooks in a row.

Combat reflexes and iron will are situational. You better have a lot of mooks running by you and triggering attacks of opportunity to grab combat reflexes, and a lot of enchanters before you grab iron will. I know people harp about your will save and "what'll happen when some day you got mind controlled". But honestly even when it finally does happen then that +2 might not save you. It's not worth it unless it comes up frequently. If it's not frequent, even dodge will be better (but not against large masses of mooks, which seems like the OP's specialty). Improved initiative basically buys you a little under half a round of extra action on average. Nice, but not the most critical choice around unless your combats are short. I'd get weapon focus much earlier.

Try:
3 - Weapon Focus
6 - Improved Initiative* (less effective in long combats, more effective in short ones)
9 - Improved Critical
12 - Dodge* (though less effective against large numbers of enemies, and you seem like a mob hunter)
15 - situational feat
18 - situational feat
* Substitute with a situational feat if you can find a good choice. Like great cleave if you can frequently manage to drop 3 mooks in a row with a single blow. Or combat reflexes, iron will or something else entirely. Even on levels 15 and 18 try to find situational feats that come up as often as possible.

[Telonius]

The trouble is that there's not much else you can get, offensively, in Core. (Unless you're a Fighter doing the Weapon Specialization tree). After you exhaust the offensive options, you go to the defensive.

Characters have several methods of defense, and AC is just one of them. Saves and hitpoints are the others. Barbarian already has terrific hitpoints, and a good Fortitude save. The weak points in his defense are will saves, reflex saves, and AC. Personally I think the consequences for a failed Will save are more severe than a failed Reflex save or a successful enemy attack. Both of those are absorbed by HP, of which the Barbarian has plenty. But with a failed Will save, your barbarian is out of the combat at best, or attacking the Ranger at worst. I'm not saying you should entirely neglect the other two low points - that would be silly. But at least in my own gaming experience, Will saves are more dangerous to barbarians than swords and monsters.

[Miraqariftsky]

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies. Oh sorry, I forgot to include some specifics. Well, like a few of you suggested, I'm using a Greatsword, mainly because I like it's offensive capabilities. I'm human, and my first 2 feats are Power Attack and Cleave.

Power Attack and Cleave, perfect. Hah! I suppose you've already had the joy of taking down a mook in a charge and then Cleaving into the mook adjacent?

My stats are:

Strength - 16
Dexterity - 14
Constitution - 16
Intelligence - 10
Wisdom - 10
Charisma - 8

Nice solid spread.

Heh. My Barbarian fails at social skills. So far, my party members are a human monk, and an elf ranger. We're all at level 2, and fairly new at this game. I'd really like to go for an offensive Barbarian build, and yes, Improved trip looked pretty cool, but my int score is too low... Oh well. I'm thinking about getting a few other offensive skills like Improved Critical. Great Cleave, etc. Any suggestions? Also...

Yeah, well, ye could still trip using ranseurs and other such polearms. You want to knock foes down to the ground but don't have enough Int? Improved Overrun is your friend, comes from the Power Attack family.

Improved Critical: Don't know for sure, haven't played many games past eighth level.

Great Cleave: Nice image...

You leap down from the black precipice, yelling a savage war-cry. The azure-armoured soldiers below glance upward in alarm, some raising their cruelly-tipped halberds in anticipation, others losing their nerve and fleeing at the sight of your terrifying visage. You barely feel the spearpoints piercing your flesh and snapping right off from the force of your fall.

The ribcage of the warrior you land on crack beneath your iron-shod boots. The heavy blade of your sword smashes through armour, clothing, skin, muscle, organs and bones and then out the other end of the soldier opposite you, its tip erupting from his side in a great gout of gore.

Before the sword could hit the ground, you give a mighty heave upwards and use its momentum to bisect the warrior next to him, laying him bare from the nave to the chops. A spearpoint suddenly stabs into your upper arm from behind but your thick, corded muscles prevent it from piercing the artery.

Spinning about, your sword a mighty maelstrom of doom, you chop through his arm and deep into his torso with unnatural ease. Two more warriors rush in from behind and in front of you, their eyes grim, their frowns steady with determination. You kick your sword free of the man you have just slain and then lunge at the warrior in front of you, impaling him through and through. Giving vent to a primal yell of rage, you dig your feet in and then turn, mauling the other warrior's face and throat with the spikes on the armour of the one still impaled on your blade...

Their other comrades take to their heels and flee for their lives. You grin madly, hot blood drenching your rippling frame.

Suddenly, the ground around you darkens with shadow and you hear the sound of something very heavy falling... You look up and see a massive, ironclad ogre hurtling through the air at you, bloody murder in its beady black eyes and growling for vengeance against the ambusher of his minions...

So yes, the point is, Great Cleave is ONLY useful if you are expecting a whole bloody horde of reliably-low-AC mooks.

@Nexus-R.C._Mina - Mabuhay! Magandang Pasko at bagong taon sa iyo! Grabe, hindi ko akalain na makakakita ako ng kabayan dito. Haha! Pre, alam mo ba kung saan ako pwedeng bumili ng dice set? Gusto ko sana kaso sa mga Neutral Grounds wala na eh.

Heh, Masayang Araw ng Paggawa din sa 'yo! Tsaka Mabuting Araw ni Rizal! Kakaraan lang ng a-trenta, diba?

Meron tayong mga Pinoy dito, di lang tayo ganoon ka-dalas mag-post.

Ako, yung solusyon ko dyan, bumili ng dice mula sa National Bookstore. 25 pesos lang. 5d6 na 'yon. 4d6-4=1d20. 2d6~=~1d12. 2d6-4=1d8. 1d6=1d6. 1d6-2=1d4.

Saan 'tong "Neutral Grounds"? Di ko 'to kilala. Baka pwede akong makisama minsan?

[Eldariel]

Combat reflexes and iron will are situational. You better have a lot of mooks running by you and triggering attacks of opportunity to grab combat reflexes, and a lot of enchanters before you grab iron will.

Just pick a reach weapon and try to secure a source of Enlarge Person. You'll get at least one AoO on every non-Huge melee opponent (and on Huges if you don't do the charge), get to do AoOs even while flat-footed and are much better off able to take AoO to hit someone and still have another one left to disrupt the spell or ranged attack.

I know people harp about your will save and "what'll happen when some day you got mind controlled".

Except failing a Will-save is game over. So basically everyone should maximize their defenses against Will. Remember that Barbarian Rage boosts Will-saves so they aren't in as bad pickle as your average melee characters.

[7th lvl scrub]

But with a failed Will save, your barbarian is out of the combat at best, or attacking the Ranger at worst.

I'm fairly certain the consequences from Slay Living, and Touch of Death are slightly worse than attacking the ranger...

[LordLocke]

I'm fairly certain the consequences from Slay Living, and Touch of Death are slightly worse than attacking the ranger...

Not if you kill the ranger then stand there while your new 'friend' Plane Shifts you to another dimension from which you have no return from for your trouble when you're finished hacking up teammates.

Just because it's not the worst thing for you now doesn't mean it's not the worst thing for you in the long run. Losing a fort save means your friends need to rez you. Failing a will save means you might not have any friends left to pull you from a far crueler fate after you've outlived your usefulness.

[Keld Denar]

Immediate Rage + Intimdating Rage + Imperious Command = Barbarian Celerity. The ability to interupt anything the bad guy is doing that you don't like is pretty sexy.

Another thought, head into Occult Slayer and never worry about 98% of will saves ever again.

Another thought, Mad Foam Rager. Disregard 1 thing that would keep you from operating for 1 round. That includes but is not limited to....DEATH. Yea, thats right, you too could shrug off that last blow that would normally drop you for 1 extra round to deliver that last ditch full attack that wins the day, or shrug of that Dominate spell just long enough to slay your dominator. If he can't give mental commands, who cares if he's in your head? :P Find it at your local neighborhood PHBII and share the goodness with your friends.

[xanaphia]

It's pretty hard to screw up a barbarian. Try to provide flanking for people. Also, get Impd Init as soon as possible. I always use it. If you charge first, then the bad guy is farther away from the squishy guys.

Also, the cleric is your best friend. Stand next to him. He heals you, you kill stuff. Get him to Enlarge you. You kill everything.

[herrhauptmann]

I recommend either extra rage or extend rage. Take extend if you notice a tendency to have fights that are double the length of your rages.

As stated, great cleave if you fight a lot of mooks.
Complete champion has spirit lion totem which trades fast movement for pounce. If you take that at first level, you're going to suck a little compared to regular barbarian until after level 5. Once you're getting >2 attacks a round, you start to rock.
Also whirling frenzy variant (Unearthed arcana I think). Get evasion while frenzy, and an extra attack at your highest attack mod (all attacks get a -2 I think).

[Miraqariftsky]

Unless ye be a barbarian who wields two weapons, thus making the Lion Totem variant work for ye even at lower levels.

[ericgrau]

Except failing a Will-save is game over. So basically everyone should maximize their defenses against Will. Remember that Barbarian Rage boosts Will-saves so they aren't in as bad pickle as your average melee characters.

Only for that combat, for your character, and it's possibly an inconvenience for others. Even assuming such, it's too infrequent for a measly +2 to be worth it. If it really was game over, then your games will end fast anyway, b/c that +2 won't save you very often at all. You're far better off boosting your other abilities, as they will actually prevent party deaths the other 95% of the time. Far more than that will save boost will. If your party fights enchanters on a daily basis OTOH, go for it b/c then the minor boost will be worth it (though, again, you're pretty screwed anyway). But that's situational. And really if it were that bad, you should play something with SR instead, which does FAR more. If it really were that bad, even a monk in full plate and a weapon is better than full BAB classes, purely for the SR. Yes, I've tested this. But I think this concern is pure exaggeration. Or surely every heavily armed warrior is stupid to not play a monk .

[Razaele]

So, I was able to convince our DM to let me become a Wolf-Totem Barbarian. Awesome! I can't wait to try out Improved Trip on Saturday! Thanks for all the suggestions you guys, I'm sure I'll be able to use all of the advice when we're playing in the future. Also, I'm still considering feats. I'm torn by a few choices out there. I know Great Cleave isn't that great, but we're shooting for an epic campaign, and I really really want Devastating Critical, which is why I'm taking Great Cleave as my last feat.

Also, happy new year you guys!!

@Nexus-R.C._Mina - Wow pare, astig story ah. Haha! Salamat sa advice! Oo nga eh, kakadaan lang ng Rizal Day. Happy New Year pare! Yun Neutral Grounds, isang tabletop franchise siya dito sa Pilipinas. Astig din yung choices dun, pero wala silang dice set eh. Hindi bale, baka magpabili nalang ako sa mga kaibigan kong nag-abroad ngayong bakasyon. Haha! Alam ko may Neutral Grounds sa Galleria, Megamall, at Greenhills. Ewan ko lang kung meron pa sa iba.

[Telonius]

So which of the feats in Core will actually prevent party deaths better than Iron Will? We've already exhausted the offensive options for this character, unless we go for Improved Overrun or Improved Bull Rush (both situational). The Combat Expertise chain, normally a good one for Improved Trip, isn't available due to low INT score.

The defensive options are Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, or Toughness. He already has a terrific Fort save, so Great Fortitude is probably overkill. Lightning Reflexes grants a save boost that's just as minor (and already situationally bumped up due to Trap Sense), Dodge gives a minor boost that's even lower and more situational (not effective until you declare it, only gives +1, and only good against one foe at a time), and Toughness is hardly worth mentioning to a Barbarian.

EDIT: Ah. Epic. Yes, that does change things. However, I'd suggest checking out the Fort save of the typical creatures you'll be fighting in Epic levels before you get too excited about Devastating Critical. Fortitude is generally the Monster's best save, and there are whole classes of creature (undead, slimes, constructs) that it won't work against. There are ways to overcome that outside of Core, but not that much you can do with just Core. Terrifying and Thundering Rage are a bit better bets, since they're active whenever you Rage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some options for a 'Core' barbarian:

I didn't see Improved Initiative in there, it's extremely handy to be able to go first in combat. The least damaging blow you receive is the one that never landed because your foe is already dead.

With your dex, I don't think Combat Reflexes would really do much for you. Most of the ways you (ab)use that feat requires masses. However, it's always handy to be able to AoO multiple times in a round.