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Thread: Feats that suck

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Feats that suck

    So here's a thread for what feats suck mechanically and are generally just not worth the feat slot.
    One thing I avoid like the plague is Dodge. a +1 to ac for the price of a feat slot???!! Not worth it especially when it's a dodge bonus that's effective against one opponent per round. Dodge as a feat sucks. Only take it as a prequisite.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    On the same train of thought, Mobility. Seriously, fail. Leap of the Heavens is pretty useless unless you also have Pounce, so maybe that can go here

    Edit: And all the ones that give +2 to two skills, and Skill Focus. Useless unless you build your character around one skill, and then THEY'LL be useless most of the time (With the exception of the Jumplomancer of course)

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    Last edited by Malacode; 2008-12-31 at 07:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Skill Focus (Comprehend Languages). But that's just getting silly.

    In all seriousness, the Weapon Focus feats are pretty bad as well.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Well, famous Monkey Grip.

    Stupid idea, extremaly weak feat. What's more to want?
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Snatch Arrows sucks some seriour ass too. Thrown wepaons are rather rare and anyway it's easrier to use your own storage and one hand free requirement makes most any feat suck.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Monkey grip has it's uses... Sure, not many and they're rather flawed, but it has its uses... Anyway, Improved Familiar (or even the feat that gives you a familiar despite your lack of spellcasting). Why waste a feat on something that HURTS YOU?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Malacode View Post
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Improved Familiars isn't so bad if you're going for a Duskblade or Hexblade. If you use the version from CWar, you start getting to the big nasty and ridable familiars like a hippogriff or a winter wolf. Coupled with full bab and shared buffs...
    Will be edited by Ryuuk : Sometime in the future.

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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Weapon Specialization (Net)

    Heck, proficiency is pretty pointless, since it makes touch attacks anyway.

    Improved Overrun-I have never, ever, found a legitimate use for Overrunning.

    Destructive Rage (CWar)-I mean, seriously, has anybody ever taken that feat for any reason other than to qualify for Frenzied Berserker?
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Lessee, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Light Crossbow). Unless you are REALLY strapped for cash, there is no reason to not go for the Repeating Heavy Crossbow. I've seen some more out there, but thats the one I can think of now.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Improved Sunder, unless you're going for Combat Brute.

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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Athletic-Absolutely gorram useless.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Oh, and how could I forget Toughness?
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Toughness isn't bad for really low level games. +3 HP at level 1 is a fair amount.

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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Skill Focus (Comprehend Languages). But that's just getting silly.

    In all seriousness, the Weapon Focus feats are pretty bad as well.
    Weapon focus with a two hander is as good as +2 to damage, you just power attack for one more point. Except you're not forced to power attack if you ever need that extra +1 to hit (say for a full attack against a foe with a fair AC).

    For the two-handed melee types weapon focus is almost globally better than weapon specialization. And this assumes you're not pulling any cheeze to get the power attack multiplier higher than 2.

    Yet I've had people tell me that Barbarians shouldn't take Weapon Focus because they weren't eligable for Weapon Specialization and the only reason to take Focus was to qualify for Specialization! They wouldn't take the BETTER feat (at least for a barbarian build) because they couldn't use it to get the WORSE feat.

    It's EASY to underrate a +1 to attacks, but that's a big bonus. It's roughly 10% extra damage for most builds. It's not natural spell, but its a solid mid value feat. Don't take it if you have a feat that really fits your build, but if you have a feat to spare it's money in the bank.

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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Whirlwind Attack. Costs a ton of feats, requires you to get yourself surrounded in melee ('AH-HA! I've got them right where I... uh-oh.'), and then, as a full-round action, you can make them all real pissed at you, instead of killing one or two with a full attack.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Dodge is so bad that Wizards printed a couple of feats that one could take in place of it for Feat/PrC prerequisites. The other thread mentions Expeditious Dodge and Desert Wind Dodge. I think they're still both highly situational, but at least they don't require some easily-forgettable bookkeeping for a +1 bonus against one enemy.

    Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec aren't so bad if you plan to take Melee Weapon Mastery. I think the stacking bonuses are decent enough. The only problem is that you need to be a level 8th fighter to get it. XP
    Last edited by AslanCross; 2008-12-31 at 07:54 PM.


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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone View Post
    Toughness isn't bad for really low level games. +3 HP at level 1 is a fair amount.
    I suppose so, but for a long game, you're spending a feat on something that will quickly become irrelevant. Maybe if you're using retraining rules, but otherwise, it's marginal at best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monty View Post
    I suppose so, but for a long game, you're spending a feat on something that will quickly become irrelevant. Maybe if you're using retraining rules, but otherwise, it's marginal at best.
    Absolutely - if your game is going to level past...5...or so, Toughness is only worth considering with retraining. For a 1st-3rd level one-shot game, however, it is potent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Weapon focus with a two hander is as good as +2 to damage, you just power attack for one more point. Except you're not forced to power attack if you ever need that extra +1 to hit (say for a full attack against a foe with a fair AC).

    For the two-handed melee types weapon focus is almost globally better than weapon specialization. And this assumes you're not pulling any cheeze to get the power attack multiplier higher than 2.

    Yet I've had people tell me that Barbarians shouldn't take Weapon Focus because they weren't eligable for Weapon Specialization and the only reason to take Focus was to qualify for Specialization! They wouldn't take the BETTER feat (at least for a barbarian build) because they couldn't use it to get the WORSE feat.

    It's EASY to underrate a +1 to attacks, but that's a big bonus. It's roughly 10% extra damage for most builds. It's not natural spell, but its a solid mid value feat. Don't take it if you have a feat that really fits your build, but if you have a feat to spare it's money in the bank.
    Only at low levels. That +1 to hit AC30 won't make a difference whether you have 10 or 30 attack bonus. It's not a BAD feat, but it becomes irrelevant quickly, just like anything else that doesn't scale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomLunatic View Post
    Whirlwind Attack. Costs a ton of feats, requires you to get yourself surrounded in melee ('AH-HA! I've got them right where I... uh-oh.'), and then, as a full-round action, you can make them all real pissed at you, instead of killing one or two with a full attack.
    Fighter: Check it out, I can do WHIRLWIND ATTACK!
    Wizard: I'm sorry, what was that, I was too busy counting the number of spells I have that do the same thing, only better, and at a range, as a standard action.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Fighter: Check it out, I can do WHIRLWIND ATTACK!
    Wizard: I'm sorry, what was that, I was too busy counting the number of spells I have that do the same thing, only better, and at a range, as a standard action.
    At a lower level, with less prerequisites.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Malacode View Post
    Monkey grip has it's uses... Sure, not many and they're rather flawed, but it has its uses... Anyway, Improved Familiar (or even the feat that gives you a familiar despite your lack of spellcasting). Why waste a feat on something that HURTS YOU?
    Familiar= extra actions= win. Combine with the spell Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability to effectively quicken a number of spells for one 6th level slot, except they stack with quicken, and you could even quicken the spells you grant for a total of 4 spells per round (note that metamagic does not increase the level of the spell, so you can meta the imbued spell without reducing it's max level as long as you can pay the slot). Aid another for +2 on practically any skill check, or even non-str ability check for that matter. An extra set of eyes and ears means you get two rolls for any sense check, and since the familiar has your skills, two rolls on most of your skills. Take a raven and a few ranks of UMD to get some use out of those actions before IFWSA, or a bat for the next best thing to your own blindsense. And that's all with it just sitting on your shoulder, sharing your buffs and laughing.

    Now, Improved Familiar is pretty useless. Nothing there you can't get with a Polymorph spell (standard or subschool). The whole "whoo, they keep their hp if it's higher" just points out that the creature choices are pathetic, since your familiar hp will be higher than theirs. Yeah, a duskblade or hexblade has a higher hit die, but 1/2 average 1d10 is only 2.75, which isn't much better than 1/2 average 1d4 for 1.25. The only choices I've seen worth considering are Lantern Archon for free Greater Teleports (everybody in the portable hole!) and the Coure Eladrin for incorporealness (pop through the wall and open door, 50% miss chance for all non ghost touch attacks).
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Only at low levels. That +1 to hit AC30 won't make a difference whether you have 10 or 30 attack bonus.
    There's a whole range of attack bonuses between 10 and 30 for which that +1 will be the difference between hitting and missing.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-12-31 at 08:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Only at low levels. That +1 to hit AC30 won't make a difference whether you have 10 or 30 attack bonus. It's not a BAD feat, but it becomes irrelevant quickly, just like anything else that doesn't scale.
    Actually, that +1 bonus can still be pretty good. You can roll 1 less than you need just as easily at level 1 as you can at level 20.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Hi

    Toughness is good for 1st lvl arcanists since it helps them live to get higher levels!

    1) I play spellcasters, so Iron Will is pretty useless.

    2) Only ever used Gt Fortitude as prereq for Stormlord.

    3) Combat Casting is good for Clerics/Healers who need to get close to danger. Otherwise it's only good for 'Shielded casting' (name)? Stops AoO when casting spells.

    4) Any crafting feat when your campaign doesn't allow time for creating magic items.

    Cheers
    Paul H

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxGaret View Post
    That's not how math works.
    ...perhaps I did not explain myself well enough.
    At higher levels, the +1 isn't important enough to warrant wasting a feat on. Take a random CR10 creature, the Fire Giant with an AC of 23. The same 10th level Fighter will have BAB 10, plus maybe +8 from STR, and a nice +3 weapon, at least. That's +21 to hit: a 90% chance. Sure, if you took WF, that makes it a 95% chance, but it means you're tied to your weapon type, which many people will find restricting. If the Fighter had taken a better feat, on the other hand, he could be doing something more useful than a +5% to hit, which he could just pay for and buy a weapon +1 better.

    At level 20, with a 35 AC Balor, the Fighter is swinging for +20 BAB, +, let's say, 10 STR and +5 weapon. He hits at +40: he's not going to miss unless he gets a 1. WF here is useless, as he's still hitting 95% of the time.

    Some 3/4 BAB class (say, a Rogue) may indeed have a use for the +1, but they don't have the feats to spare. And the Fighter doesn't need it. It's not a BAD feat, there are just BETTER ones.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2008-12-31 at 08:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    3) Combat Casting
    Ah, Combat Casting. Almost completely overshadowed by Skill Focus (Concentration), itself no powerhouse of a feat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
    At a lower level, with less prerequisites.
    The prerequisite being "be a wizard."
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    Default Re: Feats that suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    ...perhaps I did not explain myself well enough.
    At higher levels, the +1 isn't important enough to warrant wasting a feat on. Take a random CR10 creature, the Fire Giant with an AC of 23. The same 10th level Fighter will have BAB 10, plus maybe +8 from STR, and a nice +3 weapon, at least. That's +21 to hit: a 90% chance. Sure, if you took WF, that makes it a 95% chance, but it means you're tied to your weapon type, which many people will find restricting. If the Fighter had taken a better feat, on the other hand, he could be doing something more useful than a +5% to hit, which he could just pay for and buy a weapon +1 better.

    At level 20, with a 35 AC Balor, the Fighter is swinging for +20 BAB, +, let's say, 10 STR and +5 weapon. He hits at +40: he's not going to miss unless he gets a 1. WF here is useless, as he's still hitting 95% of the time.

    Some 3/4 BAB class (say, a Rogue) may indeed have a use for the +1, but they don't have the feats to spare. And the Fighter doesn't need it. It's not a BAD feat, there are just BETTER ones.
    Not everyone plays the same campaigns. In some campaigns you're just as likely to fight 45 AC NPCs with class levels as you are to fight 35 AC stock MM Balors.

    But I do agree that if you're already hitting ~90% of the time, WF isn't doing much for you, and in general it's definitely not a top tier feat.
    Last edited by JaxGaret; 2008-12-31 at 08:28 PM.
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