[3.5] Duskblade or EK for a Gish?

[Galliun]

First of all, hello. I'm not a regular poster in here (but I'm somewhat of a lurker, so I'm cool ;), and intend to be. So this counts as my first "true" post. Yay me.

The reason I come here is that I was talking to some friends about a non-OP (and non-UP too =p) Gish class. You see, I always played a "melee caster" archetype on several games I've played throughout the years, so naturally I've always wanted one on D&D, but never looked it up. 'Til I stumbled upon the Spellsword, via PRC (for Neverwinter Nights =p). Needless to say, I loved it. Never played it, but hey, I liked it.

Thing is, recently, I started looking closer. And DAMN, that class reaks of crap. See, I've never been a fan of armored casting, so the only reason I liked the SS was the Spell Channel (and Multispell, of course). A friend of mine (Draken, he posts here often) suggested I picked up Arcane Strike and Eldritch Knight, and I really liked the idea, but seemed way too overpower. Sure, it's a melee caster in CLOTH, how badass is that? But with a full BAB, d10 HD and 9/10 progression levels, seemed a bit much.

The class progression he suggested was terrible, with Fighter, Sorcerer, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword _AND_ Eldritch Knight. Naturally, I told him no, because what the hell, right? So I thought, wouldn't a Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 8 / EK 10 with Arcane Strike work? I believe so, but doesn't that make him a bit too OP?

Another friend of mine (Deimos, also posts (lurks a lot) here) suggested the Duskblade. See, I liked it. Arcane Channeling, decent spell list for what I wanted, full BAB... But. Low AC. Yuck.

So my problem is this. I have two options, going with the EK way or going the Duskblade way. Both fit the character I have in my mind, both get the ability to Channel spells per se past level 1. So that's good. But I do not like the idea to wear armor (no idea why, really), and I DESPISE Shields. And here comes the other problem: Duskblades do not get the Shield spell.

[/ramble]

TL;DR. Duskblade or EK, both with Arcane Strike? I do not want shields and certainly do not want to be a batman wizard, with full bab and casting progression. I'd be fine with 3/4 BAB and about 7th level spells, or 8th at best.

What do you think?

[Break]

If you've got Complete Mage, adding Abjurant Champion to the mix sounds good. Duskblade sounds like it doesn't give nearly enough spellcasting oomph for you, with the primary disadvantage it has being an extremely restricted spell list.

[Deimos_]

Well, you know what I think. Duskblade, even more with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=125), is, I believe, better with Arcane Strike and for your character concept. But who am I to say it? To bring this to GitP was a good decision.

[Galliun]

4 classes for 1 role? Doesn't that sound cheap? I'm not much into the idea of stacking a lot of classes, my limit is pretty much 3.

Also, it seems that Arcane strike is now a swift action? Is that right?

[Cybren]

Duskblades aren't "gishes".
And really, four classes for "one role" is kind of necessary for a gish. Sure, a straight fighter/wizard/EK will get level 9 spells and 4 attacks a round... eventually, but Abjurant Champion and the like just make it more interesting. It's not like he suggested Paladin/Bard/Sublime Chord/Eldricht Knight

[wadledo]

I'm kinda confused as to what your asking.
You like Duskblades, but for the fact that they wear armor and you don't like armor?

And I'm confused with your interpretation of Eldritch Knight and Spellsword.
I'm pretty sure Eldritch Knight has d6's, and that Spellsword has half-caster progression.

Going something like Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 3/ Abjurant Champion 4-5(5 if you want very powerful casting, but overall few spells)/ Eldritch Knight ??.
This leaves you with decent-or better casting, good attack(17 or 18 BAB at 20), and some fun options, though you could do better than Eldritch Knight by far.

And as to your no more than 3 classes, do you expect your cleric or fighter to stick with just three classes, do you expect your wizard to take 15 dead levels?
Your doing something very specific(fighting with magical assistance) and if you don't like the classes provided, then your just going to have to work harder to be actualy useful.

[JaxGaret]

Just play a straight up Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion. That seems to be exactly what you want.

You can also take a look at the Knight Phantom, it's like a more specialized Eldritch Knight.

[Glyphic]

To be fair, Gishes didn't get alot of love in the first sets of rule books. Hexblade (from c.Warrior) is a weak class, because they designed it that way. They thought armored casting was worth more than it is.

Abjurant champion isn't "OP". In most cases, your party will thank you for putting out low-level protections (Protection from energy, dispel magic), or your spells will be self-protective. Shield, protection from evil.

It simply allows you to do what you need to do to fulfill the role/archetype well, and not lag behind the rest of the party for your 'crazy' multi classing.

[Galliun]

Yeah, well. The Abjurant Champion does look rather interesting. But wouldn't that be way too much cheese? Wouldn't I take forever to actually be able to go into melee? Also, it should be considered there are two other casters in this party =p

About the Knight Phantom and the Battle Sorcerer, meh. They might be good, but meh even so. I'm kinda hard to please when it comes to classes.

[Eldariel]

Abjurant Champion is merely balanced. It makes for great support for other characters with the worse armor proficiencies in the party, and it actually makes the Gish-idea of "beat face while casting spells" work. But yea, I think you'll really need 4 classes unless you skip the Fighter/Crusader/Warblade/Paladin-level entirely, and armoured casting pretty much requires a Spellsword-dip or ACF 0 armor (Mithril Twilight Githcraft anything).

Still, for a decent 3-class Gish that is simple and pretty to the eye, Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 finishes both PrCs it takes (of course, Eldritch Knight 9/Spellsword 1 is better and makes more sense and so on, but if you're against dipping for class features...), has BAB 17 and level 19 Wizard-casting. Heck, you could consider Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion just continuations of the same class (since you can't take 15 levels in either). You need to use the "Militia"-feat to gain Martial Weapon Proficiencies for Eldritch Knight, but that's fine (I mean, seems likely that the character has had weapon training if this is the path he's going for, but if he's studying magic too, seems unlikely that he's had enough to actually get a level in Fighter). Note that of course, since Eldritch Knight has no class features beyond casting and BAB, you take Abjurant Champion-levels ASAP and finish with Eldritch Knight to be quickening Abjurations for everyone. Knight Phantom is an alternative to Eldritch Knight, but due to requiring an extra feat and giving none back, it's generally worse than Eldritch Knight; you can replicate its class features with spells anyways. And uhh, regarding your earlier comments, Eldritch Knight has d6 HD, not d10.


Duskblade isn't a true Gish; it's just a Fighter that deals damage with channeled spells instead of Power Attack. The versatility, mobility and abilities that make a Gish just aren't there (teleportation, contingencies, movement-limiting spells, real protection, etc.). So if you wanna play a Gish, play Wizard/whatever. If you want a guy who beats others in the face with spells, use Duskblade.

Regarding the "broken"-stuff, Wizard 20 is more powerful than a Gish so in the sense multiclassing actually makes you weaker. That's a pretty good argument against all the "omg, broken multiclassing" comments, especially when you remember that the Gish PrCs are the worst out of the bunch. The truly broken PrCs give you class features, not BAB (think Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.). Indeed, BAB is quite cheap; Divine Power is easily available through UMD and Cleric-casting and fixes all your BAB worries forever.

Of course, it's hard for arcane gishes to get so they have to go about it the oldfashioned way; just pointing out that Cleric is the better gish again without any multiclassing whatsoever. Give yourself the permission to be decent if you want to be an Arcane Gish and use the tools WoTC specifically created to make the concept work. They intentionally built the classes as a bandaid fix to Fighter 10/Wizard 10 sucking.

[Galliun]

You make some interesting points. But...

Why dip 1 level into Spellsword? Is that 10% (Is it 10?) Ignore really all that useful? This is merely a doubt, not that important, specially 'cause if I get 4 classes, they'd be Fighter / Sorc / Abj / EK.

Regarding my choice of classes. While the Wizard is pretty much the superior choice when it comes to casting (and most of my characters are Wizards), I'd like to go with Sorcerer for this one, because I feel it fits the character more. Perhaps a wrong choice, but still one I feel strongly about. Purely for the looks.

Also, being that I'm going into Sorcerer, the whole "Oh man, I'm just finding out about my awesome world-shattering powers" fits with the Fighter, which is why I'm going with it, instead of a simple feat.

Geez, it seems I'm nerfing myself pretty bad. Also, it seems I'm not making much sense. I hope I'm not rambling too much. If I am, do tell, please.

[Eldariel]

The principal problem with Sorcerer is the slower spell progression. You can't finish your prestige classes before epic with it, making for an uglier build. And yea, the 10% negation isn't that good, but it costs you nothing and gives the character more of the warrior/mage feel; being able to wear armor while casting spells is definitely a fighter/mage trait. Also, you can wear a Githcraft Mithril Breastplate without any ACF at all, which is already a fine armor. Spellsword also serves as a fine middle-class since it has slightly lower prerequisites than Abjurant Champion, so you can "study" as a Spellsword before you actually enter Abjurant Champion; basically, Spellsword 1 becomes your first actual Abjurant Champion-level in a sense since you can enter it a level before and the abilities it gives you qualify you for Abjurant Champion.

If you want a Sorcerer-based Gish, I strongly suggest the standard Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/whatever rest. Seriously, you're already hurting yourself by picking Sorcerer, by losing caster levels, by not wearing armor, etc. Grant yourself the small reprieve.

Since you have the hint of divinity in this build (which really makes sense for a Sorcerer; after all, you are a tiny god unto yourself with your inner power), Sacred Exorcist would make for a fine finishing class, both thematically and powerwise. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is a fairly beautiful build and it gets 16 BAB, 18th level Sorcerer casting (the lowest you can have while still getting level 9 spells, incidentially) eventually along with turn undead (fueled by your immense charisma), charisma to saves, smite (you could pick extra smite if you feel so inclined), a bunch of handy class features (10% armor casting, some abilities to vanquish spirits and protect yourself from them, strong and fast-to-cast abjuration spells) and a relatively pure build.


Note that while the class mishmash might look ugly, it's really a fairly clear progression:
2 levels of your fighting class
4 levels of your casting class (along with some combat training in the meanwhile [½ BAB])
14 levels of dedicated fighting+casting class (almost full BAB all the way, full spellcasting and lots of related abilities, albeit from different sources)

You don't need to think of each class as an individual, think of the whole and what it presents. Fact is that the PrC system has some limitations, but just logical continuation of the abilities in another class (and qualification through one class for the other) works through the limitations to create an illusion of continued progression.


For a minimum class Sorcerer Gish, Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 works. Also, Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5. But you can see how the "Sorcerer 6" over "Wizard 5" just...eats the elegance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's fairly standard for a Gish character to use Polymorph to fight in the form of a more powerful creature. Standard choices include the Firbolg (MM2) and War Troll (MM3). Duskblade doesn't get Polymorph, so even a Wizard 7 Polymorphed into an Annis Hag makes just as dangerous a combatant as a Duskblade 7. Even in the lower levels you can Alter Self into a Troglodyte to get +6 natural armor, which with Mage Armor and a fairly decent Dex gives you a rather high AC for that level.

The key to making a good Arcane Gish is to have the highest base attack bonus while sacrificing the fewest levels of spellcasting ability. For example, if you have the Outsider creature type and thus racial proficiency in all martial weapons, you could go Wizard or Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 7 as your final build. That gets 19th level spellcasting and a +17 base attack bonus at level 20, with only one base class and two prestige classes. To get the Outsider creature type you take the feat Otherworldly (PGtF) or use the SP Aasimar or Tiefling, for which you never have to spend a level to gain the +1 LA. You can even use Polymorph to assume the forms of powerful Outsiders, such as a Kelvezu (MM2).

Many people will take multiple base classes and prestige classes without a second thought, just remember that your character is defined by what he does, not what classes he has levels in. A character could use any or all of Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Dragon Slayer, Sacred Exorcist, Jade Phoenix Mage, Bladesinger, and two base classes and end up with a mechanically good build. If all the classes fit a common theme, then there's really no reason why a character wouldn't be able to take levels in all of them. Some could be self-taught, several others trained by the same organization or individual, assuming the DM would even ask for an explanation of where the character learned all of it, which many don't. The class(es) don't define the character, a question of who a character is should never be answered by naming one or more classes.

The primary reason for dipping Spellsword 1 is to improve your saving throws (+2 Fort/Will) without delaying your BAB or spellcasting. It doesn't take any feats to qualify, and it's actually easier to qualify for than most other spellcasting classes. Many builds go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1, then take a class that requires 3rd level spells. The 10% ASF reduction isn't extremely useful unless you consider the mitigating factors already available for ASF. Mithral Breastplate has 15% ASF, make it +1 Twilight and it's only 5%, which you can combine with a +1 Animated Heavy Mithral Shield to have a 0% ASF with just one level of Spellsword. Mithral Full Plate is 25%, +1 Twilight is down to 15%, add a Thistledown Suit from Races of the Wild and it's 10%, so with Spellsword 1 you can wear +1 Twilight Mithral Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit and have 0% ASF.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list has a lot more combat buffs than a Duskblade gets access to. Spells like Shield, (Greater) Mage Armor, Bladeweave, Wraithstrike, Bull's Strength, Alter Self, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Heroics, Polymorph, Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, etc. are what makes a Gish a superior combatant to a character of any of the standard combat classes. All a Duskblade really gets are some touch-range spells that he can cast through his weapon, none of which are better than using the spell slot on an Arcane Strike. To make and play a decent Gish, you want to use feats like Power Attack, Leap Attack, Arcane Strike, and Combat Reflexes with spells like Wraithstrike and Polymorph (large/strong forms). You get all the spells you'll need to buff your defenses beyond what a standard combat class is capable of thanks to natural armor bonuses, and you'll have the utility spells to get out of nearly any situation that a nonspellcaster would need help with.

[nightwyrm]

You make some interesting points. But...

Why dip 1 level into Spellsword? Is that 10% (Is it 10?) Ignore really all that useful? This is merely a doubt, not that important, specially 'cause if I get 4 classes, they'd be Fighter / Sorc / Abj / EK.

It has to do with prerequisites for the PrCs. You need +5 BAB to get into AbjChamp while spellsword need +4, so the fastest way to get into it without losing more caster level is: Caster(wizard or sorc)6/Ftr1/SS1

You end up with caster6/Ftr1/SS1/Abj5/EK (the rest)

Duskblade is good if you want to play a spellcasting fighter type right from lv 1. The PrC gish don't really start feeling like a gish till around level 8 or 9. If your game plans to stop before level 10 or so, a duskblade is a much better option.

[wadledo]

Actualy, if you wanted more of a "Hey, Icanhazspellsnow? Kthxby" feel, you could go Swiftblade instead of spellsword or EK.
You end up a little bit weaker and a little bit more running from place to place that just AbC+Spellsword+EK with swiftblade+AbC, but since at the end of it all you get something like a 50% chance of any attack or spell against you missing, it works out nicely.

Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Swiftblade 3/AbC 5/Swiftblade 7.
With that spell that grants you an single extra spell of a higher level, you can get in and do some damage without feeling like your overpowered.
I think.

[AslanCross]

I personally like the Duskblade, but it certainly doesn't have the options a Wizard-based gish has. The Duskblade's small spell list prevents it from getting far. For the most part, the Duskblade is a damage dealer who burns up his spells to add damage dice to his attacks. Even the lowly shocking grasp gets a lot of love in the hands of a Duskblade.

I'm a bit confused about you not liking armored casting, though, since the Duskblade is about armored casting. o_o Or is this the Spellsword class feature you're talking about?

[Galliun]

Well, I think my posts are chock full of stupid, I'm contradicting myself like crazy. So here's the deal.

I don't like armored casting. Sure, it makes much more sense, but it just feels wrong. I feel it's much more badass to just go in the heat of battle wearing nothing but a killer scimitar (NOT Drizzt) and regular clothing, tearing through the battlefield. Being that as it is, I don't think Spellswords or Duskblades would fit the role I have in mind.

Now, regarding several classes, I'm more open-minded than before, so I'm actually open for a 5-class result (the Fighter / Sorcerer / Abj Champ / SS / EK thing), but only if they actually make sense. I'm not a fan of adding several classes, such as paladin and sorcerer.

See, I don't really like minmaxing that much, I actually like having drawbacks. It's fun, but I like characters with flaws. Of course, I don't lie to myself, I know I'm going to be severely weaker than the party's hypothetical (sic? English is not my first language =p) Wizard, but as long as I have SOME use, being in the battlefield destroying crap with my decent assortment of spells and Arcane Strike. Feels awesome.

Aaand I rambled on again. Yay me.

[Glyphic]

Go abjurant Champion then. Wear nothing but your mage armor, Shield (the spell), other buffs and hoist up a falchion. You'll do good, and still be able to have a normailish AC (plus illusions if you want them).

[Fax Celestis]

Wear nothing but your mage armor...

Don't forget to take Vow of Nudity.

[Glyphic]

Well, that's pretty much standard for a gish, right? Can we have a linky, Fax?

[Eldariel]

See, I don't really like minmaxing that much, I actually like having drawbacks.

Meh, Sorcadin isn't actually that much a min/max as it is a "single Charisma Gish class". I mean, that's pretty much how the progression would go if going to 20; get level 9 spells two levels later than a straight Sorcerer, loses 4 points of BAB over the levels quite like a half-fighter (Rogue, Monk, Cleric, etc.), and gains abilities related to blending spellcasting with melee combat.

But yea, with those guidelines, I'd either go:

Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

or

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 if you don't mind the divine flair.

The former has a bit higher BAB and more feats, the latter has a slew of divine abilities (and Cha to saves). In other words, if you want some divine feel in the character (and mechanically, Charisma-synergies), the latter is great, while the former is a fine basic build. The former could use Sacred Exorcist and two levels of Fighter too, but since Sacred Exorcist feels out of place without divine connection in the character, I'd suggest against it.

[Galliun]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Fighter / Sorcerer / Maybe-Spellsword-Not-So-Sure / Abjurant Champion / (never thought I'd choose this, but...) Eldritch Knight.

Thanks for the input everyone, really helped me.

[JaxGaret]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Fighter / Sorcerer / Maybe-Spellsword-Not-So-Sure / Abjurant Champion / (never thought I'd choose this, but...) Eldritch Knight.

This from the same person who said this:

4 classes for 1 role? Doesn't that sound cheap? I'm not much into the idea of stacking a lot of classes, my limit is pretty much 3.

Seems someone changed their mind, hmm?

[Galliun]

This from the same person who said this:



Seems someone changed their mind, hmm?

Aye, correct you are, good sir.

[only1doug]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Fighter / Sorcerer / Maybe-Spellsword-Not-So-Sure / Abjurant Champion / (never thought I'd choose this, but...) Eldritch Knight.

Thanks for the input everyone, really helped me.

My current Gish is a duskblade/wizard/abjurant champion /spellsword /Eldritch Knight