A Dilemma - What system to use?

[Darkameoba]

Hey guys, I have a bit of a problem.
I'm starting to hate D&D but I don't know anything else that will work. I have been GMing for about 5 years now and am about to start another campaign, but I'm getting sick of D&D.
I don't like hit points, I dont like levels, I'm not too hot about classes and AC seems stupid to me. But I love fantasy and I love magic (when used with spell points from the unearthed arcana).

Now I've GM'd for Vampire the Masquerade, D&D 3rd ed, D&D 3.5, D&D 4th (barely), Shadowrun 3rd ed, The Warhammer Fantasy RPG, Inquisitor, Silhouette, CthulhuTech, V for Victory, Starwars RPG (the d20 and D6 versions), D20 Modern, Iron Kingdoms and BESM.

I've sorta figured out what im looking for. I want a system where getting hit sucks no matter what 'level' you are, like Shadowrun.
Not opposed to a vitality/wounds system either, where the determining factor to you getting hit is not a static number. Preferably something classless with free-form growth (something akin to Shadowrun or CthulhuTech) would be nice, but not necessary.
Something where the modifiers to hit dont get way outta hand (for example, +21 to hit in a d20 system).
As far as dice go, any of them work. D20, D6 D10- its all good.
But foremost, it must work for a fantasy setting. It's gotta handle magic well and make the players feel like they are special- but not gods.
Also, something that isn't easy to munchkin in would be great (my group is really bad for that sometimes).
One last thing, the system has to handle 7-10 players smoothly.

Basically what I'm asking here is: What system do you recommend that comes close to meeting what I asked for? Thanks a ton in advance.

[Grail]

True 20 It is a level based system, but doesn't use hp. Getting hit can hurt quite a bit. And even a minor wound can seriously turn a fight between evenly matched combatants.

The Magic (or supernatural powers) is fairly elegant and easy to use, and gives a lot more flexibility to casters especially when they are starting out.

Other systems that I've used and liked are Maelstrom which has been reprinted and can be purchased on RPGNow and MERP.

[Malacode]

If you like shadowrun, why not stick with it? A few changes to the fluff and equipment lists (Their stats don't need to change, just the names. Maybe get rid of the higher powered stuff and cyberware too) and a decent homebrew setting and you've got a fantasy game. *shrug* S'what I'd do if I ever got bored of D&D (Which I won't. Not to sound prissy or anything, but I enjoy the game and the fact that it's broken)

[Arcane_Snowman]

GURPS may be to your liking

[Satyr]

Obligatory Witchcraft Link.
Witchcraft is free, easy to learn and has alwys the better World of Darkness, only more so since the release of the NWoD.
The rulesystem is very adaptableand a full functional replacement for many systems, granting many, many options (not in Gurps territory, but still much more flexibility than any level-based system). Besides, it's free.

I use the rules as a replacement for D20 rules for grittier setttings like Dark Sun, Midnight or A Song of Ice and Fire and it has completely fail to disappoint me until now. The game is grittier and less style over substance which makes it more fun for me. The same rules are also used for All Flesh Must Be Eaten, so you can use Dungeons and Zombies, the fantasy supplement. Overall AFMBE is a good investment if you like the Witchcraft rules.

And Gurps is always an option. In two out of three cases minimum, you do better by replacing the original system with Gurps and the result will be better then the original system.

[Iku Rex]

I believe Earthdawn is the "fantasy version" of Shadowrun.

Alternity might work, but it's mainly intended for Sci-Fi so it will take a little work if you want to use it for a fantasy setting. Alternityrpg.net can help you out.

[Baxbart]

I'll second the vote for GURPS. A lot of the old kinks have been ironed out since 3rd ed revised, so picking up a copy of 4th edition might be what you're looking for. Its relatively simple once you get the hang of things, but given the generic system outlook, there are a vast amount of options out there. Exercising a little restraint on what makes sense tends to be the order of the day. The general mechanics for rulings are fairly straightforward (almost everything is 3d6 compared against a target skill or attribute, subject to various modifiers), and it certainly has deadly in droves!

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need piles of books to run a GURPS game. If you're a fan of pre-made settings, then those are available, but it gives you a bit of a sandbox with which to do whatever you please. For fantasy, and especially if you want more extensive magic, you'll want the two basic set books (Characters and Campaigns), and most likely the Magic book too.

The Fantasy book, and most of the others are useful if you have them, but generally aren't necessary.

[Darkameoba]

thanks guys, I'm going to check these all out and see what fits.

[dariathalon]

I'll second or third or whatever number we're on now the vote for GURPS. I think it is a very good system that can handle many of the things you're looking for very well. For example, depending on the limitations you put on characters combat can be very deadly.

Since it sounds like the magic system is important to you, I will point out that just like most things in GURPS there are a lot of ways it can be handled. There is the standard method of skill-based spell-casting, which I like quite a lot but isn't everyone's cup of tea. I've also seen that a lot of groups have had luck ignoring those rules and building all magic on the advantage rules (both can be found in just the core books). I also believe that there are other possibilities in some of the other books too.

[Darkameoba]

Thanks all, I've decided to go with gurps.

[JonestheSpy]

Before you decide once and for all, try checking out the d100 system. Based on the gaming template created by Chaosium, it was the foundation for the late, great fantasy RPG Runequest, as well as Call of Cthulu, Superworld, Stormbringer, and a few others.

All skills are based on your %chance of sucess, no classes or levels, just doing what you're good at, and if you take a couple of good body blows to your unarmored torso, you're pretty much a goner.

Worth checking out.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Mongoose's RuneQuest. Download the SRD for free. It beats BRP and old RQ by a mile (and I say this as a RQ/Glorantha fanatic for the last 15 years).

[Kurald Galain]

Something where the modifiers to hit to get way outta hand (for example, +21 to hit in a d20 system).

Based on this, Exalted. You haven't seen epic until you've seen that.

[Artanis]

Based on this, Exalted. You haven't seen epic until you've seen that.

Seconded.

And given how often me and Kural Galain disagree on things, you know that if we agree, it MUST be the right choice

[Darkameoba]

oops, ment to say "dont get outa hand", my bad. I guesse whats what happens when you make a post at 4 in the morning. Thanks for the help btw.

[bosssmiley]

You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it.

[Rad]

I would add in my votes for Exalted (if you like the setting) or GURPS if you want to design your own world. Consider the fact that GURPS has many ways to deal with supernatural abilities; including psionics that to most is what magic should have been and ca be extremely easily be refluffed as such.
Have fun!

[Satyr]

Actually there are around seventeen or so gurps magic systems, plus an nigh endless list of aditional ones for whatever you want. But the better ones are normally advantage/power based.

Exalted on the other hand, is all about flashiness, which is not really one of the more elaborate objectives RPG. Describing visual special effects is somewhat dull and besides, the whole style over substance stuff leads easily to the neglection on the substance part.

[Tsotha-lanti]

You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it.

Oh, you're one of dem fancy big-city rat-catchers, eh? Got a job and all. Fancy pole and a lil' yappy dog.

Bonepicker is where it's at.

[Hawriel]

Sence your familiar with the old D6 star wars might I suggest West End Games D6 Fantacy.

Also Roll Master might be to your liking. There are wounds and weapon damage based on type and what armor the target is wearing.

[Artanis]

Exalted on the other hand, is all about flashiness, which is not really one of the more elaborate objectives RPG. Describing visual special effects is somewhat dull and besides, the whole style over substance stuff leads easily to the neglection on the substance part.

What? You do know that you don't have to describe stuff, right? It helps, but isn't totally critical.

And there's plenty of substance, you just have to see it. Take the Daiklave for example. Sure, it's a big honkin' sword. But it's also a symbol of what the Exalted are, and a damned good item mechanics-wise that ties into both stats and the character's backstory. A backstory, by the way, that is bound to have more substance than "uh yeah, I learned how to put pointy things into people. Now where's my ph4t l00tz?"

[Tellah]

You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it.

Having just started running WFRP, I've decided there is not, nor can there be, a system so sublimely awesome as WFRP.

[Satyr]

What? You do know that you don't have to describe stuff, right? It helps, but isn't totally critical.

The alternative is the intolerable dull "roll and tell the numbers" which reduces the roleplaying to a party of Yahtzee. It's not the description part. It's the contents of the description that led to my personal headaches. I guess I prefer less larger than life characters.

A backstory, by the way, that is bound to have more substance than "uh yeah, I learned how to put pointy things into people. Now where's my ph4t l00tz?"

I know that the game has some deeper mythology, but seriously the gameplay was too focused on the flashiness. I am certain that visiual effects are not a good element for purely vocal-based medium like roleplaying games, because of the most complete lack of visual aspects.
Besides I completely agree that Roleplaying, diablo style isn't the optimum either.

[Darth Stabber]

The Riddle of Steel.
Vaguely based on conan. Has An amazing combat system, and Yes getting hit blows alot, No hp, but penalties when injured depending on where you were hit and how hard. Magic is slightly over powered, and GM Dependant, but frequently kills those who try to abuse it. Spiritual Attributes are a beutifully functional combination of advancement mechanism, and Roleplaying enforcer. Cannot recomend highly enough.

[Jayabalard]

GURPS if you want to design your own world.

Personally, I like GURPS Banestorm for a fantasy world, so GURPS is fine even if you don't want to create your own world

You can check out the basics of the rules with GURPS Lite, which is a free download. You can get a decent idea of what is possible in the system.

If You want to do fantasy, you'll probably want the Basic Set (2 books, Characters, and Campaigns), and then 2 or more other books. Magic and Fantasy are almost a given; Banestorm is, as I said, a pretty decent fantasy world.

You can mix in any number of other books, though I'd suggest playing with just a couple to start with.

[Morandir Nailo]

I highly suggest Barbarians of Lemuria. It's incredibly easy to learn and use, and keeps the numbers simple, while going for that Conan feel. Character advancement is point-based (spending points to raise attributes, combat values, and ranks in careers), magic is free-form, and HP stays low, but with Hero Points the PCs can still do heroic stuff. You can get the original version of the game for free (click the "Original BoL" link), and the newer one is only $10.00. Money well-spent, IMO.

Mor

[Artanis]

The alternative is the intolerable dull "roll and tell the numbers" which reduces the roleplaying to a party of Yahtzee. It's not the description part. It's the contents of the description that led to my personal headaches. I guess I prefer less larger than life characters.

But the same goes for any game system in history. Saying "I attack" is just as dull in DnD and GURPS and Shadowrun and BESM and Battletech and Heavy Gear and WoD as it is in Exalted.

I know that the game has some deeper mythology, but seriously the gameplay was too focused on the flashiness. I am certain that visiual effects are not a good element for purely vocal-based medium like roleplaying games, because of the most complete lack of visual aspects.

The thing is that there isn't much more than what you call "visual effects" that can add to the description of an action. If you dislike saying "I attack" because it's dull, then by definition you prefer said descriptions to include visual effects. Exalted allows visual effects anywhere along that scale.

[elliott20]

Almost a full page of suggestions and nobody bothered suggesting Burning Wheel! what kind of world are we coming to!?!?!

The BW system is essentially classless and skill based. The game's central mechanic makes combat a really messy and dangerous ordeal, while emphasizing the social aspects of your character. (even the most tricked out character can get killed in one or two good hits)

If you're not looking to play a kick down the door style game, BW is worth the look.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Having just started running WFRP, I've decided there is not, nor can there be, a system so sublimely awesome as WFRP.

I'd say that Dark Heresy might be a little behind on the system, more restrictive classes, etc, but the setting more than makes up for it. But let us bask in the shared warmth of critical hit tables:

Spoiler

Show

[R4ph]

The Riddle of Steel.
Vaguely based on conan. Has An amazing combat system, and Yes getting hit blows alot, No hp, but penalties when injured depending on where you were hit and how hard. Magic is slightly over powered, and GM Dependant, but frequently kills those who try to abuse it. Spiritual Attributes are a beutifully functional combination of advancement mechanism, and Roleplaying enforcer. Cannot recomend highly enough.

Gotta agree, Riddle is a wonderful system. Brutally effective combat, whoever managed to land the first blow will often win, as that one blow pretty much ends a fight.

Only thing about it is that everyone needs to be very familiar with the system, else it will be very slow, especially for combat. Once everyone knows what they're doing though, it is great.

Although it does say a lot about how harsh the system is, when it includes a mechanic for improving your next character...