Angry Commoners and 20th level classes

[Harperfan7]

Here's the deal. Take any one 20th level core class of a PHB race and put him on a street in a town/city. He/she is in a crowded street of commoners (say hundred or three - and only commoners). Suddenly, for some reason, they all turn hostile. Without using a specific item, such as Boots of Teleportation, which classes survive and why? What do specific classes do that will save them that other classes can't do?

NOTE: Anybody can create a character of any class that can get out of this without specific items. The idea is to use a roughly standard character of 20 pure levels of one core class. The point is that, for example, a 20th level fighter has what it takes to fight his way out, but cleric (who can fight some) does not.

1. (this made us laugh) The Diviner would either not be there in the first place, or be running down the street saying " I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN!"

2. I give the cleric the least chance to survive, simply because they can't/don't specialize in anything that can help them survive this except healing, which probably wouldn't get to be useful. (also, not cleric bashing, clerics are fine, just probably not in this situation)

What do you think? What do you think the specific character classes would/could do (including specialized wizards)?

[TengYt]

All classes. I don't think a few hundred commoners can do a damn thing to any level 20 core class. And regardless of what you think, a Cleric has probably the best chance of "winning".

[Kurald Galain]

The wizard's got it easy, he'll just teleport out (or become ethereal, or whatever).

The bard's got it even easier. Suddenly, for no reason, they all turn hostile - then a few seconds later, for another reason, they all turn friendly again.

[BRC]

Normally? Any of them, the commoners will be doing,at most, 1d6+1 damage if they have a club and used their proficiency with it. Considering that, at 20th level, any character should have a considerably high AC, He can walk right through the commoners.


Now, if they form a Mob from Cityscape, it's different. A Mob is supposed to be about 16-20 Individuals, and can dish out considerable hurt. Also, it dosn't need an attack roll.

[TengYt]

Fighter: "When I took Great Cleave, they all laughed. WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW?!"

[Harperfan7]

The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.

[Tengu_temp]

2. I give the cleric the least chance to survive, simply because they can't/don't specialize in anything that can help them survive this except healing, which probably wouldn't get to be useful. (also, not cleric bashing, clerics are fine, just probably not in this situation)

You do realize that clerics are the strongest core melee class, maybe apart from druids, right?

I'd say that there is no PC class that'd have any trouble to take down 300 commoners at level 20, one way or another - even Complete Warrior samurai. It helps that only 8 commoners can attack you at once, unless for some reason they have ranged weapons.

[MammonAzrael]

Rock. Rotten vegetables. Chickens.

Commoners have plenty of ranged weaponry.


And I'm going to agree that not a single lv 20 class would have any difficulty, assuming the commoners aren't twinked out specifically (say like turning into a mob).

[TengYt]

The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.

A level 20 character can feel fatigue from the effects of a few hundred commoners?

[Harperfan7]

Alright, to get my point across, what if they were 15th level? or 10th?

[Vortling]

What do you think? What do you think the specific character classes would/could do (including specialized wizards)?

I disagree that clerics have the least chance to survive. They've plenty of useful spells that can help them out in this situation. Even more if they're clerics with the Trickery or Travel domains. Spells like Freedom of Movement are on their spell list and are useful enough in other situations to be prepped on a normal adventuring day. Personally, I'd say rangers or fighters are at the most disadvantage in this situation but there's still little chance of the crowd hurting them significantly.

Edit: 10th level is closer to what you want but you need to look at the usual AC for a PC class at the level and remember that level 1 commoners have +0 to hit them. Beyond about 5th level most classes will only be hit by the commoners on a natural 20.

[Kyeudo]

Alright, to get my point across, what if they were 15th level? or 10th?

Lets go down the list on how they would all surive:

Barbarian: Great Cleave! 14 dead commoners a round minimum, and only because the barbarian only gets one five foot step.

Bard: "Hi, Everyone! Let's be friends!" *Diplomacy check* "What, you want to elect me mayor for life? Wonderful!"

Cleric: *Gates in a Solar* *Sits back and eats popcorn while Solar goes to town*

Druid: *Wildshapes into a T-Rex* "ROARS!" *Proceeds to stomp around town like godzilla eating commoners like candy*

Fighter: *Watches commoners try to hit his AC until he gets bored, then mimics the barbarian*

Monk: *Tumble check* "Na-na-na-na-na-na! You can't catch me!" *Runs away at 45 miles an hour*

Paladin: *Tries to figure out how to get out of this with out violating his paladin oath* *Decides that non-lethal damage would probably work* *Proceeds to spend the next three hours punching commoners in the face*

Ranger: "Sic 'em, Fido" *Carves a five-lane blacktop highway with two lane service road through the middle of the pack.*

Rogue: *Hides in Plain Sight* *Proceeds to sneak attack every commoner one at a time*

Sorcerer: *Casts Shapechange* *Barbeques town as a red dragon*

Wizard: *First commoner attempts to attack* *Wizard's contingency spells go off* "Ah crap, now I have to recast all of those." *picks way through field of corpses*

[Eldariel]

Cleric: Divine Power + Quickened Righteous Might > Quickened Divine Favor > "Who's smexy now, bitches?" Seriously, a Cleric is better in melee than a Fighter, as it should be (:P). He's going to have no trouble whatsoever smashing a bunch of mooks. Of course, he could also just use a level 9 spell and enjoy the fireworks, but that's probably a bit wasteful for a bunch of losers. He could also just layeth the smackdown. Seriously, if you think Healing is Clerics' main ability, you're playing a different game.

As for Barbarian, remember the reach weapon (say, Spiked Chain). Great Cleave! 24 dead, and 5 more with a 5' step. If he really felt like getting nasty, Enlarge Person-potion and layeth the smackdown! 56 squares, 5' step getting 9 more, he wouldn't take long. Also, he has damage reduction so he isn't actually threatened. Also, if we're talking about an actual Barbarian, he'll have Combat Reflexes which further drops a few.

[Mikeavelli]

Fighter: And the streets will run red with blood.

Rogue: Runs up the side of a building, hides, disguises self, then bluffs the crowd to make them think whoever was leading the mob is the character. Walks off while the mob tears them apart.

Cleric: Consumptive Field. Who's your daddy now?

Wizard: Celerity, Timestop, teleport back to a wizard tower. Scry the village for the next few years carefully noting the personalities of the villagers, comings and goings of adventurers, and any weaknesses in the village defenses. After careful planning, return to the village with an army of summoned creatures and burn it to the ground.

Sorceror: "Well, we've got a few problems here. First, I can fly, and you can't. Second, I've got so many experience points that all of you put together don't even HALFWAY match me. Third: Meteor Swarm."

Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.

Bard: Pulls out a flute, and begins playing. After enthralling the populace he shouts to them all, "Come, follow me!" Hopping and jumping out into the wilderness, over the hills and through the woods gathering allies as he goes through the Power of Rock and the magic of friendship. Eventually he comes to the Evil Overlord's fortress, and he calls forth an epic battle cry, sending his many commoner allies into battle.

They're quickly slaughtered, and the bard wanders off.

Barbarian: Grabs one of the villagers, and uses him to beat the rest of them to death.

Druid: Turn into a giant Bear. Eat the Villagers. While summoning more giant bears.

Ranger: Get to the highest building in town, and just start sniping. All the while giggling insanely to himself and petting his animal friend, the only friend in the whole world. We don't need them, do we Rex? Nooo, they've been bad villagers, they tried to kill us, well we'll show them, WE'LL SHOW THEM ALL!

Monk: Despite being completely immune to the villagers attacks, thanks to his damage reduction, the monk still finds a way to die.

[hamishspence]

The Mob template in Cityscape and DMG2 is a way around the invulnerability problem- mob is much more dangerous than individuals.

[bibliophile]

Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.

First off high Cha + Diplomacy as a class skill means he could probably talk them all out of killing him. If reasoning fails, any sane DM wouldn't cause a paladin to fall from self-defense. And how are they innocents if they are trying to murder him, apparently without provocation?

[Blood_Lord]

Check the Duration on Airwalk and Overland Flight.

Pretty sure Clerics don't even need to fight.

Go Go Gadget 3rd Dimension!

[Harperfan7]

This is what I was looking for.

Anyways, the reason I think the cleric has the least chance (other than paladins with their lack of options) is because they can fight-but not fight hordes, cast spells-but not as quickly (in general), have social skills-but not focused in them, and have good AC-but not as good as more AC focused classes. A travel cleric has good chances, so does Trickery, but I think the low dex, general lack of Imp Init, and general lack of Quicken Spell is what does them in.

Once again, try to imagine a mob, not individual 1-3 level commoners.

[Eldariel]

Check the Duration on Airwalk and Overland Flight.

Pretty sure Clerics don't even need to fight.

Go Go Gadget 3rd Dimension!

But it's more fun to kill them all. What, are you telling me there are Gods other than Nerull?! Blasphemy! (oh, by the way, I think some commoners just died - way to go)

EDIT: Every Cleric has Quicken Spell. Most also have Divine Metamagic. If they have DMM: Persistent, all their buffs are on all the time. Also, they fight better than Fighters, and can buff their AC skyhigh (see: Monk's Belt). Of course, as Blood_Lord pointed out, they can just stay airborne eternally, but that's not nearly as fun as killing all the noobs. Even the Mob is no threat to a buffed Cleric in combat, let alone if the Cleric uses spells.

The lowest chance of survival? I'd say the Fighter; unless he has Adamantine Full-Plate (as opposed to the Mithril-version), all he's got going on for him are lots of damage and attacks of opportunity.

[Fax Celestis]

The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.

The Mob template is in DMG-II. It's essentially "Swarms for Larger Creatures", but it's pretty functional. Such a mob will present a threat for a ECL 20 character.

[Mikeavelli]

First off high Cha + Diplomacy as a class skill means he could probably talk them all out of killing him. If reasoning fails, any sane DM wouldn't cause a paladin to fall from self-defense. And how are they innocents if they are trying to murder him, apparently without provocation?

A lot of those were in-jokes for this very forum.

That one specifically was based on the massive number of "What would make a Paladin fall" threads where the answer was inevitably, "Everything. Paladins will always fall, no matter what they do."

[bibliophile]

My bad, didn't catch that. Strange considering I've read a few of those threads...

[lord_khaine]

Anyways, the reason I think the cleric has the least chance (other than paladins with their lack of options) is because they can fight-but not fight hordes, cast spells-but not as quickly (in general), have social skills-but not focused in them, and have good AC-but not as good as more AC focused classes. A travel cleric has good chances, so does Trickery, but I think the low dex, general lack of Imp Init, and general lack of Quicken Spell is what does them in

i think you are misunderstanding something about clerics here, their healing spells and their fighting skills alone are more then enough to beat the mob if it doesnt have that fancy template.
then with buffs and summons it only gets better for the cleric.

[Harperfan7]

"The Mob template is in DMG-II. It's essentially "Swarms for Larger Creatures", but it's pretty functional. Such a mob will present a threat for a ECL 20 character."

Let's just go with that then.

[Another_Poet]

You guys are forgetting that the character level of the commoners on the street wasn't specified.

100 1st level commoners? Anyone can get out.

100 commoners of random levels, (which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners....) would toast ANY single PC, except maybe wizard/sorcerer.

Bear in mind that commoners can and should level up - presumably by overcoming non-combat challenges like business rivals and the like. Plus, some of the feats they are most likely to take are the ones that boost saves (Iron Will, etc.) or the ones that boost defence (Two-Weapon Defence would be great for a commoner who selected quarterstaff as his single weapon).

Commoners can also wear armour even though they aren't proficient in it. The penalty is applying the armour check penalty to attack rolls, so they can wear light armour and be totally okay.

People underestimate commoners... I blame it on bad DMing. :P

[hamishspence]

Cityscape mobs are CN: it hints that they may have been driven to a frenzy by magic. Mob is 48 adults, CR 8.

Throng of Children is particularly nasty for more moral players- CR 5, CN, unless you are using nonlethal damage DM might be quite nasty about player slashing them down.

a bigger version is the Orc Horde from Munchkin MM 2.5:

3872 Orcs. Challenge rating 22, but astronomical saves and hit points make the swarm hard to bring down. Organization: Big stonkin' army.

[SurlySeraph]

Ranger: Get to the highest building in town, and just start sniping. All the while giggling insanely to himself and petting his animal friend, the only friend in the whole world. We don't need them, do we Rex? Nooo, they've been bad villagers, they tried to kill us, well we'll show them, WE'LL SHOW THEM ALL!

...I´m not the only one who imagines most rangers as antisocial serial killers?

EDIT: Note that my favorite villain of all time, who I kind of want to play as, was a gnome Urban Ranger serial killer. He focused on halfling women. Oh, and he owned the magic item shop that the party used, which really caused hilarity* to ensue when we figured out he was the killer.

*Hilarity being defined as "Giggling, he points a wand at you. Add up the number of magic items he sold you that are on your person right now. You take that many d6s of fire damage."

[Collin152]

...I´m not the only one who imagines most rangers as antisocial serial killers?

Well, the most efficient use of Favored Enemy is to take it on humanoid races, so...

[Eldariel]

"which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners...."

It would toast any non-caster, yes, but a caster is still not, under any circumstances, actually forced to engage them. And yes, this goes for the Cleric and the Druid too; Cleric can learn Teleportation et al. as Domain-spells (not to mention the few he already knows) and the Druid can just Wildshape into something that flies. And then they could just summon a few Elemental Monoliths/Solars/Planetars/Pit Fiends/whatever to do the dirty job. Or take the tough guys out with walls and Avasculates and Consumptive Fields and what-have-yous, but that's much more taxing than having monsters do the dirty job.

[Collin152]

Don't forget that one spell- what's it called? Incite Riot?