DM Problem: Over cautious PCs

[MeanJoeSmith75]

I have a group of sophomore gamers(ie. they have enough experience to know things will kill them if they aren't careful) They problem is they are already 6th level, they have had pretty easy time dispatching kobolds and goblins, but are still scared.
example: They are dungeon crawling when they come upon a small camp of goblins. The thief easily exceeds the goblin's perception. They spend 10 minutes discussing if they can just go around they, sneak past, imitate a goblin commander to get them to run, and several other plans.
I have random encounters happen when they take to long, but I'm getting tired of them just talking it out all the time.
I know roleplaying should be rich, but they take so long we get through maybe 5 good encounters in a 4 hour session.
Any suggestions?

[Flickerdart]

Talking ain't a free action no more: if they waste 10 minutes discussing a plan, the goblins notice and attack them.

[imperialspectre]

5 encounters in 4 hours? Either you really are giving the players easy encounters, or your battles go incredibly smoothly. If the latter is true, congrats.

Your players may just be very tactically-minded wargamers. If it's really important to you that the game move along more, you might want to mention that to them out of character, and see if they're interested. They may not realize how long they're taking, or that you would like things to go more quickly.

[MeanJoeSmith75]

I've tried that with patrols coming up from behind them, but they just aren't getting the hint. They make elaborate plans like something out of Scooby-Doo and get up set when they break in basic game mechanics. I'm really getting fed up with them, but They are a nephew and a couple of friend's kids. Generally really smart bunch, but over smart when it comes to gaming.
I guess it might be my fault. When they were etting a little to full pf themselves in the beginning levels, I had some fun once with traps that put them on edge. But its been ages(both i and out of game)

[MeanJoeSmith75]

Flickerdart-
I consider each fight an encounter, even taking out scouts.

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart-
I consider each fight an encounter, even taking out scouts.

I think you may have meant imperialspectre, not me. Even so, that many combats that fast is pretty good.

[Raum]

Any suggestions?

The talking is in character, correct? What is your goal? More combat? If so, have you discussed it with the players? They may not want more combat. Perhaps they enjoy the role play.

If they don't, what has caused them to be so cautious? Have they been burnt too many times?

[kamikasei]

they just aren't getting the hint.

Tell them directly, out of game. "Guys, I gotta say, you don't have to overthink so much. Every battle does not require a ten-page plan in advance to avoid disaster. I think we might all have more fun if you relaxed a little. I don't promise to go easy on you, but your characters are pretty badass at this point so if you spend less time fretting over the small fry we can deal with bigger and badder enemies and really show off how you've grown."

Trying to hint at things in-game always seems to go nowhere in these threads.

[MeanJoeSmith75]

Flickerdart- oops. Sorry, you are correct sir. I meant imperialspectre

kamikasei - I'll try a little direct talk. Maybe I'm just a little wary of being the railroad DM.

Raum- As I said before, I did give them a scare with couple of well placed and hidden traps, nothing life threatening. One guy did get his brain eaten by a mind flayer in an earlier game, different characters and higher levels, but that was just plain stupidity. He was a half-orc cleric that charged while everyone else held back. Three mindflayers stunned the party and him. It took three rounds before they successfully grappled him and did the Jello thing with his cranium. All this while everyone else was freaking out. It made it nearly impossible to get them anywhere near the Underdark now.

[Arbitrarity]

Ah, finally found the true example of over cautious PC's.

Besides, there is no disadvantage to being cautious.

[Glyphic]

A time-based trial, or a dungeon that shifts with time. Encourage reckless behavior, and reward it.

[kamikasei]

kamikasei - I'll try a little direct talk. Maybe I'm just a little wary of being the railroad DM.

There are two sides to it. One is a discussion of game style, which is entirely unrelated to railroading - they simply seem to have a mistaken idea of how much planning you expect of them, and correcting that mistake isn't railroading.

The problem is that you don't want them to go the other way and start blithely rushing in with no thought, nor backslide and keep overthinking things. You need a way to give them feedback on this without sliding in to railroading by outright telling them, "this particular challenge isn't that hard and you have an okay plan already". It's something you just have to play by ear based on your own knowledge of the group.

[Michaelos]

There are two sides to it. One is a discussion of game style, which is entirely unrelated to railroading - they simply seem to have a mistaken idea of how much planning you expect of them, and correcting that mistake isn't railroading.

The problem is that you don't want them to go the other way and start blithely rushing in with no thought, nor backslide and keep overthinking things. You need a way to give them feedback on this without sliding in to railroading by outright telling them, "this particular challenge isn't that hard and you have an okay plan already". It's something you just have to play by ear based on your own knowledge of the group.

If any of them have Sense Motive, or even a decent Wisdom roll, you can do a secret roll and tell them that you rolled a Sense Motive for player X and he got a "Hunch" That they don't need to worry about something. If something is taking way too long, you can just pretend they rolled higher and give them the hunch anyway.

[valadil]

I have two suggestions:

Put them on a time limit. Say they have 6 hours to get the potion out of the dungeon to cure the mayor's daughter. Time how long their conversations take.

Give them misinformation about the upcoming battle. It doesn't matter how you do it. Illusions are the easiest way. At any rate, they'll form a plan focused on one particular point of attack and it'll be the wrong one. That should help.

The other option is to take advantage of their caution and work it into the game. Let them know that there are clues throughout the game and they have to look. Each clue will give them a tactical advantage in the next big fight. Make the combats interesting enough that they do have to plan ahead. Clearly your players enjoy that kind of gaming. Why not give it to them?

[Thurbane]

My group usually plays one 3-5 hour session each week (approx 7-30 or 8.30pm to 11.30 or 12.30am). One DM, five players.

If we get through two combats, we consider it a red letter day.

[Grail]

Run them through RHoD or some similar adventure where they are on the clock. Being cautious is ok, but if they do it to the detriment of the goal then they might have to change their tune.

[Narmoth]

Hm... you know, if I was lvl 6, and encountered goblins, I would expect them to have class levels and put up a good fight. I would plan ahead, expecting the battle to be tougher than it seems. I second the idea of making the encounters harder. Also, give them less opportunities to prepare, like have the guards notice them somehow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tucker's Kobolds

[Fan]

Tuckers Kobolds aren't even hard to beat at their level. Two spells really "Sleet storm", and a "Kill cloud".
Just be sure to haev everyone pack neckalces of adaptation, and your cool.

[The Mormegil]

A time-based trial, or a dungeon that shifts with time. Encourage reckless behavior, and reward it.

Yeah, make them NEED to be hasty. Like, timed traps and such.

[AslanCross]

I'm going to be doing this for the coming final arc of my campaign. The final "dungeon" (it's actually the BBEG's flying flagship) is going to be timed so that they can't rest or mess around. The BBEG's performing a ritual that's going to be completed in XX minutes, so they have to think about the looting and squabbling later and get on with it.

[Solaris]

Tucker's Kobolds

Counterproductive. Hilarious, but counterproductive. Then you'd never be able to get them to go anywhere.

[Grey Paladin]

This is a learned playstyle- you need to explain to them what kind of a campaign they are playing in.

Players who treat each encounter as a matter of life and death likely come from a game with a static world, where they regularly face far superior forces, and where rushing to face them directly means certain death.

This condition is often as hard to cure as the H&S mentality of rushing in without fear due to trusting the DM not to kill you, and often needs to be corrected through example.

Throw some easy encounters at them where time is of essence, and allow them to steam-roll them, while balancing it with some more difficult encounters that require some planning.

[TengYt]

Give them an NPC ally who's important to the campaign, but at the same level as them and never steals the show. Have said ally have ADHD and rush into every encounter possible. If the players want him alive (and he's important to the campaign) they'd better rush too. Like an Escort mission in an FPS.

[Solaris]

Give them an NPC ally who's important to the campaign, but at the same level as them and never steals the show. Have said ally have ADHD and rush into every encounter possible. If the players want him alive (and he's important to the campaign) they'd better rush too. Like an Escort mission in an FPS.

You, sir, are the reason they still have escort missions. You're the devil, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.
Next to nobody likes escort missions. Not even in real-life. This way lies madness and despair.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Since when are players thinking a bad thing? Maybe you should go along and start making challenging encounters where they benefit from this planning?

Other than that, Grey Paladin has it right: the players have learned this behavior from past experience. If you want them to unlearn it, you need to never spring unpleasant surprises and reversals on them (for a while, that is) - let them relax and loosen up without getting their asses kicked because of it. Not that I see what the fun is in playing through encounters where you can just casually slash your way through the feeble opposition without working your brain at all.

If they actually waste time trying to figure out how a completely inconsequential door might be trapped, do feel free to tell them "Just move on, it's not trapped, argh!" Sometimes, players do waste endless time puzzling over something completely inconsequential. (This is why, as a rule, you never use red herrings in your RPG adventures.)

[AslanCross]

A little bit of caution goes a long way in the dungeon, but I think the OP is talking about players who take an inordinate amount of time to put together a simple plan.

It could be worse--my players sometimes take back their turns when they're about to do them because they're afraid of that AOO. :P

[Triaxx]

Let the goblins scout out and find the PC's when they take too long. So the table is turned and the PC's are the ones who get attacked.

[MickJay]

Let the goblins scout out and find the PC's when they take too long. So the table is turned and the PC's are the ones who get attacked.

My thoughts exactly, let the whole camp rush the party and get defeated in 2-3 rounds.

Of course, if after that experience they'll be even more careful ("that encounter was so easy only because DM wants us to become more careless"), then it's pretty hopeless...

[kladams707]

Use a boggle timer?