Shadowrun

[JellyPooga]

I was just looking for some opinions on Shadowrun, both as a system and a setting. I've been thinking of looking into it for a while now, but unitl recently, haven't had the spare change. Now I do, I'm thinking more seriously about it, but don't know anyone with any books for me to have a gander at for a better picture than just "Cyberpunk with Elves" (more or less).

I am a fan of Cyberpunk 2020, both setting and system (though neither is without its flaws...some might say the setting is a little dated now). If I took a look at Shadowrun, would I be highly disappointed by the comparison? Also, what about monetary investment? D&D3.5 is quite expensive due to the amount of splatbooks; is Shadowrun the same or is it a bit more like GURPS (i.e. you buy the Core rules and that's all you need unless you want a bit more setting).

As I say, looking for opinions both positive and negative. Let me know what you think.

Cheers,

JP

[Cheesegear]

Hey chummer, Shadowrun is awesome. I trust that you've been on Wikipedia - or even Shadowrun's home page - and at least checked out the setting. If you haven't done that, do it now.

It's so much more. Than "Cyberpunk with Elves." there are Trolls, Orcs and Dwarves too!

The system is kind of clunky at first, given that there are so many options in creating a 'Runner'. It's more than Class/Skills/Feats/Gear. Because there is no class system in Shadowrun. However, a lot of skills 'mesh together' to create archetypes and such, and although you can get similar characters. Very rarely are two Runners ever exactly the same.

And there's only one kind of die. D6. But, you'll need a lot of them. Splatbooks are not necessarily needed, since the setting easily transfers across into homebrew dystopian worlds. A lot of the splatbooks are setting specific, and (usually) will only apply to that setting/city. So, if you have no interest in that setting/city, who cares? You only need core.

A lot of newbies get scared off at how hard it is trying to make a character, since there's no set, or pre-determined path for you. Your character truly does evolve from what you do.
More than that, there's no XP. Which may or may not be annoying. But, it just means that you can only 'level up' per se, when the GM says you can. And you have no idea when that'll be. End of a run? End of a session? Who knows? Sometimes the GM can 'level you up' all on his own.

Given the GRIMDARK nature of Shadowrun, I'd be remiss in my duties if I didn't tell you how easy it is to die. Getting shot in the head, means you're shot in the head. Not just 'you lose 10 HPs but can still fight'. Often, you get so wounded, your character becomes unplayable. Not because he's dead, but because he got his legs blown off, his eyes gauged out and severed vocal chords (Yes, that happens).
...Sure, if that happens you can buy cybernetics. But, you need money for that. And you only get money if you do runs. But, you're character can't go on runs. So, game over.

Yeah, it's not very nice to newcomers. But, once you've learned it, you'll be voting for Big D before you know it.

[Malacode]

First off, what edition? 4e doesn't have that many supplements (Three I think, one for the GM, one for any Riggers in the party and one that I think is fairly useless), and none of them are needed to play. 3e has a whole heap of supplements, but again, none of them are needed to play. I personally like the setting, and the rules are, well... They aren't the worst I've come across, but they aren't exactly streamlined. I haven't played Shadowrun for long though, so maybe someone more experienced with the system can come along and help out a little more

[Satyr]

I found the 4th edition of Shadowrun somewhat a letdown from third edition, but even in the last years of the previous edition, the Shadowrun sourcebooks became significantly worse (up to the complete failure that is Year of the Comet).
Shadowrun is not that much Cyberpunk anymore, clearly lacking on the 'punk' side of the formula, but make it up wth scheming dragons, fantasy creatures and a sometimes really scary-cool background (the UB, Bug City, Deus, the whole TT- founder elves). Compared to Cyberpunk, Shadowrun is almost cheery and positive about the future; if you are into desperate urban jungles and a grim future it will be a letdown; if you are into large conspirations, bug spirits and powerful magic combined with miniguns, it may have its highlights.

I have no idea though, why people claim that it's hard to create characters. Thnaks to the lack of a restrictive class system and all that astraightjackets it is much easier to create the desired characters without te annoying limitations of classes, levels and similar anachronisms of RPG design.

[JellyPooga]

@ Cheesegear:

Class-less = Good. I'm a fan of class-less systems like GURPS...just makes more sense to me.

only d6 = meh, dices are dices. whether a system uses d6, d10, or a whole plethora of die, makes no odds to me!

Gritty = hella good! me likey systems where combat is actually something that you might want to avoid! The one thing I hate above all else in D&D is the ambivalent attitude to getting wounded because it has no long term consequenses.

@Malacode:

I'll likely be looking at 4ed, I suppose. I'm guessing that 3ed is out of print now and is thus somewhat hard to come by (unless my local gaming store happens to have a copy lurking deep in the bowels of its stock room!)

Is the difference between 3rd and 4th ed that big? I've heard that its not all that different (more like the difference between GURPS 3rd and 4th than D&D 3rd and 4th), but I could be mistaken.

[Satyr]

Gritty = hella good! me likey systems where combat is actually something that you might want to avoid! The one thing I hate above all else in D&D is the ambivalent attitude to getting wounded because it has no long term consequenses.

Shadowrun is not a very gritty system, since it is quite easy to survive even several bursts of a SMG without injuries, or several headshots with a pistol, as soon as you have more than average constitution and wear an armor.

[Cheesegear]

Is the difference between 3rd and 4th ed that big? I've heard that its not all that different (more like the difference between GURPS 3rd and 4th than D&D 3rd and 4th), but I could be mistaken.

I'll be honest. It's very similar. Nearly all the rules are the same, a few words got changed here and there. Not really a great deal of difference (like D&D 3.0 to 3.5). The only real difference is the fluff (which is 3.x 'greyhawk' world getting the b**chslap that was 4th).

Satyr's complaints about the 'cheery' nature of some of the game is true. My - and my group's - reaction to that, is to just simply not use that fluff. Don't use the cheery critters. It's as dark and gritty as you want it to be. As are most games.

As for the class-less system. It's love it or hate it. I love it (as does everyone else apparently). But, as someone who hates the system told me

"'Do anything you want' isn't a choice. It's a term that makes you so paranoid about what to pick - or what not to pick - that you end up picking the worst combination of skills and traits because you don't have a clue about what your limits are."

[BobVosh]

I love classless, and over all I loved Shadowrun. Rules are a bit clunky, and a lot of people seem to hate the crossover to wireless.

I didn't get heavy into cyberpunk (noone to play with) but if you liked one you will probably like the other.

*edit to avoid too much posting* I don't really remember armor that much. At least not for people. Armor plated cars/trucks/etc isn't absurbly rare, but not common. If I missed the giant Armor R Us store it is because I favor riggers a bit too much. However just state that "armor is rare, and marks you." if that is how you want it. I think I remember something about some kevlar stuff...but nothing really heavy. This also may have been our group, we tried to "fit in." Excluding the troll ganger. We don't talk about him.

[JellyPooga]

"'Do anything you want' isn't a choice. It's a term that makes you so paranoid about what to pick - or what not to pick - that you end up picking the worst combination of skills and traits because you don't have a clue about what your limits are."

That's quite possibly the most peculiar argument against classless systems I've ever heard! Surely the only reason you'd pick the worst combo is because you either a)don't understand the system or b) misconstrued the type of game your GM intended to run. Just my 2p on that anyway...

@Satyr: How common is armour though? In Cyberpunk, armour is not something that every schmo is packin' and anyone who wears anything too conspicuous is going to be noticed and avoided, at the very least, or at the other end of the scale tagged and bagged by some corporate scum because you must be up to something worth investigating...

[NPCMook]

Armor is pretty common among runners, just because it doesn't look like armor doesn't mean its not armor.

I have all the Rulebooks, if I had to pick a favorite.. I'd go with Arsenal, followed by Runner's Companion, Augmentation, Street Magic and finally Unwired.

[Satyr]

Armor is pretty much standard. Even haute couture clothing uses ballistic materials per default. For the most part, there are onyl very few people who do not wear armor.

I have all the Rulebooks, if I had to pick a favorite.. I'd go with Arsenal, followed by Runner's Companion, Augmentation, Street Magic and finally Unwired.

The best books were never the rulebooks but the background books that included the more mysterious parts of the backgound. Universal Brotherhood as the oldest of them, Big City, Arcology Shutdown, both volumes of Threats and surprisingly, Cyberpirates. Especially the chapter about Madagascar.

[bosssmiley]

Shadowrun? It's ok, but it's not the sine qua non of gonzo cyberpunk RPGs. This is:

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(and there never was a film version. Got it?)

[DMfromTheAbyss]

Positives about Shadow Run

Setting has depth
Skill system actually makes sense
Realistic combat without taking forever to roll it out (quite)

Negatives

Rules system can be a bit slow


Overall I think it's a great system and setting. Just a suggestion though, instead of buying splat books or listening to what specific people on the internet say etc, your way better off getting some of the original novels (Never Deal with a Dragon etc, by Nigel Findley I believe. Also some of the newer novels aren't half bad come to think of it.) that gives you a good base for what the game should be played like.

And yes Armor technology has caught up somewhat with weapons technology in that a heavy armored troll can take a few rounds or a lot of glancing shots without too much effect... Then again the way damage stages up and down depending on the skill of the person doing the firing means even a heavy armored troll can be taken out by 1 sniper round from an expert or a lucky/skilled shot in general.

But I've seen the most broken characters possible under the system get taken out by three starting characters if they're not prepared for it. So yes it's pretty realistic in my book.

Then again I've heard horror stories about people having Rail guns as starting characters, and runner groups taking over the city becouse they're invincible... you can get the same thing in any game though it's called a bad GM.

I'd say the setting is dystopian and gritty, but does have a spiritual/moral element absent in "Grimdark" settings. It's a tough world where bad stuff happens, but making the "right" choices is actually pretty rewarding.

One final warning... Don't let Powergamers create their own spells and stick to the book and you should do fine.

[Tsotha-lanti]

First off, what edition? 4e doesn't have that many supplements (Three I think, one for the GM, one for any Riggers in the party and one that I think is fairly useless), and none of them are needed to play.

Say what? Arsenal, Augmentation, Contacts and Adventures, Corporate Enclaves, Emergence, Runner Havens, Runner's Companion, Shadows of Europe, Street Magic, and Unwired... and that's just what I've got. But yes, you absolutely don't need any of them to play, and Runner Havens (which contains no new equipment, advantages/disads, etc.) is the best one anyway...

Anyway, yeah. The system is way better than Cyberpunk's - the wireless hacking is leagues better, which is not hard since CP2020's hacking is both incomprehensibly stupid (directly modelled on the idiotically ridiculous Matrix in Neuromancer) and completely unplayable (by virtue of stupidity as well as requiring 1-2 hours of playing with just the decker, no other players).

The setting has definitely aged better than CP2020's hair-metal-and-William-Gibson setting (which I can't run without completely - if subtly - revising and re-integrating; I think it has huge potential, but it's wasted literally everywhere except in Live and Direct and Home of the Brave).

And everyone knows what a ridiculous abortion CP203X was. It starts with interior art of modded Barbie dolls and ends with ICE being "monsters" formed by nanites you shoot with your gun... and catches absolutely none of the feeling of the Neal Stephenson books it tries to imitate (Diamond Age and Snow Crash, namely). Basing your game on Stephenson in the laste '00s is about 10 years late anyway. So you're kinda short on options if you want to switch to something newer.

Edit:

@Satyr: How common is armour though? In Cyberpunk, armour is not something that every schmo is packin' and anyone who wears anything too conspicuous is going to be noticed and avoided, at the very least, or at the other end of the scale tagged and bagged by some corporate scum because you must be up to something worth investigating...

What CP2020 were you playing? My experience - and the game developers'! - was that unless every single player agrees to cripple themselves and trust the GM to play fair (which goes against the spirit of cyberpunk anyway!), every character will be armored to SP 20-22 (immune to anything smaller than 7.62 NATO) with innocuous armor. That's undetectable SP 12 Skinweave and an unencumbering SP 16-18 armored coat, both available on the street...

Fortunately, the combat system from Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads! fixed this. Now PCs would have to wear the actually obtrusive armor - SP 25+ hard military armor suits - to be invulnerable to small arms, and PCs in Skinweave and armored clothes can be stabbed to death. Since armoring up doesn't help much, you may as well not bother with it, and the game becomes less of an arms race. Similarly, since smaller guns are deadly too, everyone doesn't have to carry assault rifles or 12mm SMGs (or 15mm if they've got enhancements) ...

[LibraryOgre]

My problem with Shadowrun was always rules-mastery. There are a lot of different subsystems and its a very crunchy system. While the world is fantastic, the rules were a bit too much for me.

[Morandir Nailo]

Beyond the fact that I'm very biased against this game (I loathe "-punk" settings) to begin with, the one time I played it seemed an OK system. My one big beef was the way combat was structured. IIRC, you can act more than once in a round if your Init total is above 10; so the guy who rolls a 41 goes on 41, then on 31, then 21, then 11, then 1, while the not-so-dextrous guy goes on 7. Do this with a group of 5 people, plus opponents. Then, do round 2. Repeat until all the baddies are dead, or the PCs shoot themselves so it will end. Ugh.

There were people in the group who were taking naps in between turns, because it took that frickin' long - actually leaving the table and laying on the couch for a half-hour nap. I know other games can have long combat rounds, but nothing in my experience (not even Exalted) has ever come close to the mind-numbing experience that was Shadowrun combat. That was the one and only time that I ever told my group that I flat-out refused to play a game ever again.

Maybe that's changed with newer editions, or maybe it's something you won't mind doing, I dunno. But I'll never touch that system again, even for a fantasy setting.

Mor

[LibraryOgre]

Beyond the fact that I'm very biased against this game (I loathe "-punk" settings) to begin with, the one time I played it seemed an OK system. My one big beef was the way combat was structured. IIRC, you can act more than once in a round if your Init total is above 10; so the guy who rolls a 41 goes on 41, then on 31, then 21, then 11, then 1, while the not-so-dextrous guy goes on 7. Do this with a group of 5 people, plus opponents. Then, do round 2. Repeat until all the baddies are dead, or the PCs shoot themselves so it will end. Ugh.

They changed that in 3e to a more Palladium-like system... everyone gets their first, then their second, then their third, in order, until everyone is out of actions.

[Skaven]

My problem with Shadowrun is the healing system / magic. You might want to look into houseruling it some. Not sure what version it was I used to play.. but you get one shot at healing someone, if you fail the roll they have to heal naturally.

It can really kill the mood when you pretty much have to bring the game to a halt over a single d6 roll failing. Ad nobody else can try on the guy who failed to get healed. Its no fun for a player if their character needs to get left behind from a game.

[Prustan]

Personally, I rather like Shadowrun. Despite the misfortune of having a tough GM when first introduced to it, it grew on me. A Classless, and flexible system that you can do a lot with.
As far as armor is concerned, everybody has at least some, even if it's just armor clothing or a jacket. Under a rules-lawyer GM, combat is something to avoid, and healing is a real pain. Character growth happens as fast as the GM lets it happen.
I absolutely hate 4E though. Hated the design of the rulebook, many of my previous edition books are now a lot harder to use or useless, and while the change to wireless is a good idea, I can't get how it works, or why certain pieces of cyberware have wireless capability.

[Another_Poet]

We run 4e Shadowrun every other week.

Setting is fantastic, rules are poorly organised and often counter-intuitive.

You can run it out of one book I believe, though the GM will probably want a module of some kind as well at least for the first few runs.

If your group has never run the game before you nmight consider not having hackers/technomancers in the first group of PCs, and not using the matrix. Once everyone has the other rules down if someone wants to roll up a hacker type then go for it.

If you're GMing then read that rulebook page by freakin page. Take notes and be ready to answer questions.

Also, be prepared for low-combat sessions or even entire sessions with no combat. Be on constant vigil to see if any player is looking bored - every character is a specialist and may have little to do while th other characters do their thing, so find a way to include them.

ap

[horseboy]

I have no idea though, why people claim that it's hard to create characters. Thnaks to the lack of a restrictive class system and all that astraightjackets it is much easier to create the desired characters without te annoying limitations of classes, levels and similar anachronisms of RPG design.

Well, making a 4th edition character is akin to making a 500 point GURPS char, but 2nd was easy. Never saw 3rd in English, so never played it.

[LibraryOgre]

I have no idea though, why people claim that it's hard to create characters. Thnaks to the lack of a restrictive class system and all that astraightjackets it is much easier to create the desired characters without te annoying limitations of classes, levels and similar anachronisms of RPG design.

Yes and no. I find that it can be difficult to make an effective character if you don't have a strong concept that ties with an archetype, and I personally have trouble juggling points... not keeping track of them, but my inner min-maxer comes out and I dither for a plethora of choices.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah Shadowrun. Good times.

First, let us speak of the earlier editions. If you pick up an edition from 1st to 3rd you will see a game that was made in the 1980's, with all that means in terms of RPG technology. The rules system is designed to be highly simulationist, which means that each sub-system (magic, rigging, decking) runs on a rules set substantially different from the core (i.e. guns & swords) rules - the better to reflect the nature of each endeavor. If you play Cyberpunk 2020, I'd imagine this level of rules mastery won't be too hard on you; it's no harder than 2nd Edition AD&D anyhow.

Combat is very gritty. Now, while folks will talk about trolls taking tank shells, look at this little example:

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3rd Edition
A maxed Troll (Body 11, 13 with TI Bone Lacing and 16 with Dermal Armor 3) wearing an Armored Jacket and a Vest with Plates takes a burst shot from a AK-97 (a cheap assault rifle).

With all that Armor thrown on, he'll have 7 points of Ballistic Armor - pretty much the most you can get as a starting character, using the basic rulebook - and for this he'll be suffering at least a +2 Target Number (TN) adjustment on all Quickness Tests (like shooting guns). The way this works is it reduces the shot's power by 7. A burst from an AK-97 counts as 11S, so our Troll Tank needs to roll a 4+ on a d6 to gain any successes on his damage resistance test. If he doesn't get any, he'll suffer a Serious Wound, which adds +3 TN to all skill and ability checks (save for further damage resistance checks), and he loses 3 points from his initiative. Considering that the game is played with d6's (though you can re-roll and add to any 6's rolled), a +3 TN is a terrible burden. Plus, anything from a Moderate wound on will knock him out and leave him with a Deadly wound - very bad.

But our troll has a 50% chance on each roll, so let's say he makes half his rolls - 8 successes. Every 2 successes will downstage the wound level by 1, so the troll is at Light-2; he'll take no damage unless the shooter rolls at least 4 successes on his attack roll. The shooter rolls his Assault Rifle skill (between 1-7; probably 3+ for someone who owns an Assault Rifle) plus any dice from his Combat Pool (4-9 dice for most people) that he wants. Up to 50 meters, he'll hit an a 4+ (if he invests in some Recoil Compensation - which he will if he's smart) and possibly on a 2+ if he's invested in a Smartlink (common cyberware for gun types). A Light Wound results in a +1 TN modifier and takes away 1/10th of the target's total health levels.

Looks pretty dicey for our tank, no? Did I mention that the shooter can take two burst shots on an initiative pass?

And heaven help him if he gets hit from a burst from an automatic shotgun; 11D slugs are no fun at all!

Now, if the poor scrag wasn't built to take tank shells, he'd probably have a Body of 8 - 6 at the most for Humans and Elves - and might be wearing 4-5 points of Ballistic Armor. For them, even a normal ganger armed with an AK-97 may be a mortal threat (6's aren't easy to roll!); all he needs is to have 2 net successes and he'll have taken out the runner in one shot (a Deadly Wound).

But the fun doesn't stop there! If our friend doesn't have access to magical healing, he'll have to take a Permanent Damage test. If this Body test (TN 4) doesn't net at least 2 successes, the fellow with the Deadly Wound is going to permanently lose attribute points or organs. All can be patched up with cyberware, of course, but there's a limit to how much machine you can put on someone before they give up the ghost.

Summary
Is it gritty? Hell yes!

The true weakness of the early editions lies in overspecialization. I call this the Decker Problem - each character has a single role in a mission, and everyone else has to sit and wait while he does it.

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Two of the sub-systems in Old Shadowrun - Decking and Rigging - really don't play well with others. While a Rigger is driving around, there's not a whole lot that his passengers can do; the Rigger has huge initiative bonuses, access to tons of guns, and any pot-shots from the passengers are at terrible penalties to hit. Worse is the Decker who enters a whole 'nother world where nobody else can do anything. And neither the Rigger nor the Decker is particularly well suited to operate outside of their niches, unless they're willing to be crappy at their primary "job."

Astral Combat can be just as bad with a Mage, but that is far less necessary to a good run than, say, delivering your team to the objective and hacking the planet.

To solve the Decker Problem, I usually disallow players from making Deckers or Riggers. Aside from almost requiring extra books to run them properly, these roles just don't play well with others. If the players need a Decker or a Rigger, I let them hire one through a Fixer, or have it otherwise provided. Easily solved.

IMHO, Shadowrun provides a unique flavor of cyberpunk which everyone really should try at least once. I have little experience with 4th Edition, but from what I've heard it seems like it solves the Decker Problem but has otherwise moved away from Shadowrun's grittier roots.

[TheOOB]

My problem with Shadowrun is the healing system / magic. You might want to look into houseruling it some. Not sure what version it was I used to play.. but you get one shot at healing someone, if you fail the roll they have to heal naturally.

That's not entirely true, you can get two chances to heal, once with first aid, and once with magic(in that order, once magical healing is applied you can't use first aid), and since most runners wear good armor most their damage is stun which heals in hours rather then days.

Anyways, onto other things.

Shadowrun is my system of choice at the moment, and it's currently in a three way tie for my favorite system(with 7th Sea and NWoD, I still like D&D, just taking a break right now). The setting is great, the rules are clean, if a little slow(shooting someone requires three dice rolls, one by you to see if you hit, an opposed roll by the target to see if they evade, and a wound check by the target to see how much damage they take.) and the system is very adaptable.

One point I feel is important to drive home is that how the game plays is really up to your and the group. Shadowrun covers everything from a street level campaign where the shadowrunners are street toughs and that gangbanger over there with a pistol and a bullet proof vest is a legitimate threat(and the lone star, cops, are really dangerous), to a high level uber professional game where full corporate security squads with assault rifles and military spec armor is the norm.

Also, different aspects of the system come up more or less depending on your preferences. You can have a whole entire campaign devoted to finding an ancient magic artifact, fighting an evil cabal of toxic shaman, or trying to bind that free spirit, or you could have a game where the only magic you see is the occasional security mage thrown in there mainly to remind the troll that a 10 body and full body armor doesn't make them invincible. The same goes with hacking. You can go like Ghost in the Shell where you are constantly tapping into hyper illegal data stores for info and hacking drones to save your skin in combat, or you could have a game where you mainly use the matrix to talk to eachother and watch cyberporn. It's up to you.

As far as cost, shadowrun really costs as much as you want. Everyone should have the main book(I'm assuming SR4 here), and that has all the rules you need to play most types of characters. The other books provide info about specific areas of play. Arsenal is a book that mainly has lists of gear, guns, armor, clothing, swords, drugs, vehicles, drones, whatever you want. it also has rules for martial arts and vehicle/weapon modification. Everyone can find something they want from the book, but it caters mostly to people who want super specialized high tech gear, or to riggers.

Street Magic has everything you every wanted to know about magic. It has more then just new spells, spirits, and metamagic, it really fleshes out how magic is in the sixth world, and gives entirely new ways to use magic, as well as several types of magical threats to throw at your team. It's not needed to play magical characters or have magical threats, but it gives you a lot more options and is very very useful if you are either planning only playing many awakened characters or playing a campaign with lots of magic.

Augmentation is all about well...augmentation. In addition to provides lots of information and new types of cyber and bioware, it also introduces genetic and nano technology, as well as having rules for medtech, biodrones, and cyborgs and the like. Useful for any table that wants to have heavily augmented characters, not so much if you only take basic ware.

Unwired is all about the matrix, really goes into detail about how the matrix is used(both rules and fluff, and both legal and illegal). Also has much needed info on technomancers and AIs. If you plan on doing heavy hacking, it's a must, otherwise it's merely useful.

And that brings us to my favorite, runners companion, which is broken into three parts, first being general info about being a good runner, second being other character creation methods(first being the karma gen system, which I prefer, and the second being the priority system, a much quicker and easier system thats good for newbies). The third section is character options...want to be a fox shapeshifter, it's here, free spirit, it's here, catgirl with a poisionous tail, it's here. Completely optional book, and I wouldn't get it before the others, but lots of fun.

[Satyr]

Well, making a 4th edition character is akin to making a 500 point GURPS char, but 2nd was easy. Never saw 3rd in English, so never played it.

I still don't see much of a difficulty here. It's bookkeeping and simple sbtracition with three digit numbers at most. That may be annoying and time-consuming, but difficult is something different.
And 3rd edition characters were very similar to those of 2nd edition, only that Metahuman characters were not penalized any longer, you had more skill points and a second category of knowledge and hobby skills which were a good instrument to give the character more depth.

Yes and no. I find that it can be difficult to make an effective character if you don't have a strong concept that ties with an archetype, and I personally have trouble juggling points... not keeping track of them, but my inner min-maxer comes out and I dither for a plethora of choices.

that may be a point of tradition and conventions of the game, but I remember that most of our SR campaigns did not focus on creating powerful runners, but more on creating interesting individuals. Back in the days of 3rd edition when the game still had an appeal, we had a very large group of twelve or so players who all played Shadowrun with a specific characters, and send them on runs together, so that you alost never had a fixed party but a number of varying and often somewhat dysfunctional teams of runners who were all interconnected and varried in their power. With a set-up like this, you always have an extremely broad range between characters, because not only the degree of optimisitation but also the experience of th characters differed widely. It didn't matter, because the effectivity of the characters were not nearly as important as their coolness.

Sadly, this whole setup was most completely destroyed through the new edition, which was an extreme letdown in comparision to the pregenitor system. until today, the 4th edition SR ccore book is the only RPG book ever I sold - because no one of my friends wanted it as a gift. Together with the NWoD, the edition switch of Shadowrun was one of the greatest failures of introducing new systems and through this sabotaging and splitting the player base. Here in Germany, both systems were relevant once - good second tier games, with a significant number of players, which made it relatively easy to find groups. Nowadays, the new editions have mostly disappeared again (that's more so for the NWoD), and the people who still play the games use the older (and better) 3rd edition, respectively the original world of darkness.

[Thrud]

I played a heck of a lot of 1st and 2nd ed. When 3rd came out I snagged a lot of the better rules modifications and put them into my game (the afore mentioned initiative rules being one of the most important. In the old rules a seriously wired street samurai might go on, say, 33, then again on 23, then 13, and only then will the un augmented people get a chance to go. (it was even worse in 1st ed 'cause you only subtracted 7) Now you start with the highest number, then go down initiative in order, then subract 10, and everyone with a positive number gets to go again. I HIGHLY recommend that whatever version you use, if it doesn't have this rule you should use it.)

Also, another recommendation, either make the entrire party deckers, or have the decker be an NPC. This is because when you are in the game, in the middle of a firefight, you might have to keep switching back and forth between real world and the matrix. That can really mess with the flow of the game, and again as has been previously mentioned the game system is clunky. It does not need the distraction a decker can cause.

One last thing. Make sure you read the rules on karma pools carefully and make sure that the party sets one up. It literally can be the difference between a TPK due to bad rolls and everyone getting out. The Karma system may be one of the best inventions in Shadowrun. I have no problem killing off a party if they are dumb, but simple bad luck killing off a whole party can be really annoying when the party did nothing to deserve it. Karma can fix that.

Just a few thoughts.

[Werewindlefr]

Also, another recommendation, either make the entrire party deckers, or have the decker be an NPC. This is because when you are in the game, in the middle of a firefight, you might have to keep switching back and forth between real world and the matrix. That can really mess with the flow of the game, and again as has been previously mentioned the game system is clunky. It does not need the distraction a decker can cause.

This has been adressed in 4th edition thanks to augmented reality and the wireless.
Also, deckers to not exist anymore, and hackers/technomancers overlap with riggers a lot (so it's possible to have a decent Riggermancer/Rigger-hacker)

[horseboy]

I still don't see much of a difficulty here. It's bookkeeping and simple subtraction with three digit numbers at most. That may be annoying and time-consuming, but difficult is something different.

Well, when you've reached the % allotment to your areas and you've still got points over and you're trying to figure out where you can dump them and you're finally throwing up your hands and go download a spread sheet because you just can't do it in a day otherwise. Then when you FINALLY get done, you're not even level 1 cool, it just exacerbates existing problems with the system...yeah.

Sadly, this whole setup was most completely destroyed through the new edition, which was an extreme letdown in comparison to the progenitor system. until today, the 4th edition SR core book is the only RPG book ever I sold - because no one of my friends wanted it as a gift.

It's the only system I rate lower than 3.x, and 3.x makes me want to punch my grandmother.

Together with the NWoD, the edition switch of Shadowrun was one of the greatest failures of introducing new systems and through this sabotaging and splitting the player base. Here in Germany, both systems were relevant once - good second tier games, with a significant number of players, which made it relatively easy to find groups. Nowadays, the new editions have mostly disappeared again (that's more so for the NWoD), and the people who still play the games use the older (and better) 3rd edition, respectively the original world of darkness.

Yeah, when I looked for 3rd edition, it was all in German. Yeah, I have a lot of problems with 4th too.

[Satyr]

Well, when you've reached the % allotment to your areas and you've still got points over and you're trying to figure out where you can dump them and you're finally throwing up your hands and go download a spread sheet because you just can't do it in a day otherwise. Then when you FINALLY get done, you're not even level 1 cool, it just exacerbates existing problems with the system...yeah.

I see this from the perspecctive that anything I can easily manage in the area of numbercrunching and calculation, isn't really difficult. Besides, character creation works best if you ignore the point limits beforehand, just add the stuff that makes the character work and if some kind of balance is enforced (which is not necessarily a wise thing), calculate that afterwards.

It's the only system I rate lower than 3.x, and 3.x makes me want to punch my grandmother.

It's probably not the wisest thing to say with all the 3rd vs. 4th edition flame wars in the last half year, but I also found 4th edition a kind of a letdown. Perhaps I'm turning in some kind of grognard hating all kind of newer games.

Yeah, when I looked for 3rd edition, it was all in German. Yeah, I have a lot of problems with 4th too.

When FASA collapsed, most of the Shadowrun writing went to the German distributor, Fanpro. Besides, the German source books were normally hilariously over the top and are truly an example of how not to write a source book.

[thegurullamen]

What's so disappointing about 4th ed? I used to play Shadowrun exclusively, but that was years ago. Now I can't find a single soul to play it and I lost the books on top of that. I haven't kept up with everything since well before the newest edition's release, so I'm not sure where all the criticism is directed.