Epic BAB/Saves What is the point?

[Frog Dragon]

So I don't get it Why does epic reduce everyone to the same BAB and saves accumulation speed in all respects. The wizards can still spring epic spellcasting, but suddenly you take away what makes martial classes good. What is the point? Aren't caster classes overpowered enough already?

[Innis Cabal]

It makes book keeping easier. Or so they say. Once you hit epic levels book keeping gets to be a real pain in the butt regardless of what your doing

[vegetalss4]

level 100

good saves 52

bad saves 33

difference 19

this means that a save Dc which you will only fail on a natural 1 on a good save, needs a natural 20 on a bad save

[Frog Dragon]

Even if you play epic It's likely to be 40 level at the highest. . That makes Good save +24, Bad save +12. Higher than that is really rare.

[Heliomance]

And how many campaigns, even epic ones, get to lv 100?
i think if you get that far, you're not going to worry that much about the odd failed save.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Epic save bonuses are actually better than what most classes get pre-epic. It gives everyone +1 per 2 levels to all saves, the same as a Monk gets, just without an additional +2 at a first class level gained.

Epic attack bonuses progress slower so that there isn't an insurmountable gap between monsters' ACs and the attack bonuses of non-martial characters. If a level 40 Fighter-type has a +40 BAB and a level 40 Rogue-type has a +30 attack bonus and a level 40 Wizard-type has a +20 attack bonus, the Fighter will never miss, the Rogue will miss 50% of the time, and the Wizard will never hit. The difference is instead 20/15/10 respectively pre-epic, then progressing at the same rate so the gap stays consistent. Progressing at 1/2 level instead of 1/level makes opponents whose CRs are higher than your level easier for everyone to hit, since their ACs will likewise be progressing slower. If a character four levels higher would have an attack bonus four points higher instead of two points, then an opponent at +4 CR would have an AC four points higher instead of two points. It makes for a more consistent system overall.

Personally I can't stand epic-level play. Attack bonus and save bonuses don't even matter. The only thing that does matter is who wins initiative and killing the opponents before they even get to act. Then there's the whole dilemma of what-if-we-don't-stop-this, if the PCs decide not to save the world, will someone else step up and do it? If so, why didn't that someone else show up for the apocalypses that the PCs stopped before? Epic level play is more like an episode of DBZ than a game of D&D.

[vegetalss4]

I do know that most epic campaign gets to level 100, however Wizards want (to pretend that) their rules to work for even longer

[TengYt]

I do know that most epic campaign gets to level 100, however Wizards want (to pretend that) their rules to work for even longer

Most epic campaigns get to level 100?

[Douglas]

Personally I can't stand epic-level play. Attack bonus and save bonuses don't even matter. The only thing that does matter is who wins initiative and killing the opponents before they even get to act. Then there's the whole dilemma of what-if-we-don't-stop-this, if the PCs decide not to save the world, will someone else step up and do it? If so, why didn't that someone else show up for the apocalypses that the PCs stopped before? Epic level play is more like an episode of DBZ than a game of D&D.

Try taking out one of Belial's epic bosses in one round sometime. Have 20 extra levels beyond what he designed it for and 6 copies of your character, all of whom get to act while the boss voluntarily gives up initiative. Good luck.

I have a character in a now-defunct level 50 gestalt arena. I remember one match against a very heavily optimized opponent who got something like 6 standard actions in one round. I lost initiative and was in plain sight, and the number of actions per round was not the only thing that was highly optimized. I won the match. I can dig up the link for you later if you want.

A well designed epic challenge will not go down in one round, nor will it finish off a party member in one round. I'm speaking from (limited) actual play experience.

[SurlySeraph]

So I don't get it Why does epic reduce everyone to the same BAB and saves accumulation speed in all respects. The wizards can still spring epic spellcasting, but suddenly you take away what makes martial classes good. What is the point? Aren't caster classes overpowered enough already?

Because it is very, very annoying for people who like martial classes.

[Heliomance]

douglas: That link would be interesting, if you can find it.

[Douglas]

Ah, here it is: Zearth vs Taurnil. My character is Taurnil.

[woodenbandman]

^That feels like Star Ocean; Level 255. thousands of damage, hundreds of thousands of HP, purely silly magics.

[JaxGaret]

Epic level play is more like an episode of DBZ than a game of D&D.

It's pretty much like that from the point that casters get access to 9th level spells. Epic spellcasting only exacerbates the situation.