[2E] What spells for a fighter/wizard?

[quillbreaker]

AD&D. Second edition. No advice on prestige classes please. *grin*

I'm a dual classed fighter 7/wizard 3 working my way through the wizard ranks. Having 50 hps is nice, but losing both my weapon specialization and my fighter THAC0 makes life a bit difficult.

I'm curious if anyone has any opinions on what my go-to spells are, both in general and to boost my melee power now and when I reach wizard 8. The game has an odd house rule, in that I get spells like a wizard but cast like a sorcerer (in other words, I get spells fairly normally with standard progression and rate, but use slots to cast spells - no memorization required.)

I'd like to focus on core spells.

[Suleman]

AD&D. Second edition. No advice on prestige classes please. *grin*

I'm a dual classed fighter 7/wizard 3 working my way through the wizard ranks. Having 50 hps is nice, but losing both my weapon specialization and my fighter THAC0 makes life a bit difficult.

I'm curious if anyone has any opinions on what my go-to spells are, both in general and to boost my melee power now and when I reach wizard 8. The game has an odd house rule, in that I get spells like a wizard but cast like a sorcerer (in other words, I get spells fairly normally with standard progression and rate, but use slots to cast spells - no memorization required.)

I'd like to focus on core spells.

Well, I'm no expert, but at least in video game adaptations of 2E, Mirror Image and Stoneskin are amazing.

[Grail]

Well, I'm no expert, but at least in video game adaptations of 2E, Mirror Image and Stoneskin are amazing.

Yes, in 2e, Stoneskin is absolutely broken.
Lightning Bolt was broken as well, considering that you could bounce it off walls and hit the same target multiple times.

other than that, it's been too long since I played 2e.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Magic Missile.

Seriously. Being able to cast Magic Missile like a 3E Sorcerer saves you from chucking darts every combat.

Charm Person is nice too (the time between checks is usually measured in weeks ). Shield gives you an AC of 2-4 against various missile attacks - very nice.

2nd Level, Alter Self is nice (give yourself Flight or Water Breathing for 3d4+2L rounds). Invisibility is a must. Web's always good.

Keep an eye on Strength for when you get to Level 8.

3rd level has the classic blasting spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt), Fly & Haste (very good for Fighters) and Protection From Normal Missiles.

Um, what kind of role are you serving in this party. These are some generally good spells, but there are some that might be more useful in certain situations.

[LibraryOgre]

Off the top of my head, away from my books:

1st level
Armor - Until you have bracers of armor AC 6 or better, this is your go-to defensive spell. It lasts until you take too much damage.
Burning Hands - damage is pretty consistently good (1d3 +2/level, up to +20, IIRC... 21-23, compared to Magic Missile's 10-25), and a nice spell for taking down weaklings and trolls.
Enlarge - At 3rd level, it's nice. At 8th level, you're a monster, since you'll have your attacks back. Plus, it's a good buff for other, non-dual-classed, characters.
Shield - Since you're sorcerer in casting, this is a nice one to throw up when a combat gets hairy.


2nd level
Blur
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image

Those are the ones that are hitting the front of my head while I wait for the police arrive (a patron had their call stolen... with his weapon inside).

[Kurald Galain]

Seriously. Being able to cast Magic Missile like a 3E Sorcerer saves you from chucking darts every combat.

Heh. Are you aware that the dart-specialized fighter is one of the strongest (and silliest) fighter builds in 2E?

[Tempest Fennac]

Which race are you playing as? Unless you have a really long life span or you're immune to ageing effects somehow, Haste would probably be a bad choice due to how it ages you by 1 year. How was Stoneskin broken back then?

[Kurald Galain]

How was Stoneskin broken back then?

It's technically cumulative with itself - a good place to spot this is the computer game, Eye of the Beholder. IME most DMs rule that it isn't, though.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. I may have played that (I've tried the 2 arcade games, and the Megadrive game where "Elf", "Dwarf" and "Halfling" are classes along with human Thives, Clerics, Fighters and Wzards, but I got bored of it after a while due to not being able to figure out how to do things in combat).

[Grail]

Which race are you playing as? Unless you have a really long life span or you're immune to ageing effects somehow, Haste would probably be a bad choice due to how it ages you by 1 year.

Assuming he is playing by the rules as written, then he must be human as he is playing a dual classed character and not a multi-classed character.

How was Stoneskin broken back then?

Stoneskin just prevented you being hit for a number of successful hits. Technically it even stopped when people tried grappling you.

[LibraryOgre]

Stoneskin just prevented you being hit for a number of successful hits. Technically it even stopped when people tried grappling you.

Yes, because a 4th level spell should never be able to do that.

Not saying that Stoneskin isn't pretty messed up in 2e... there are long debates about what constitutes an attack (can I get rid of it with a handful of gravel?), and what actually gets around it, but I never heard the stacking argument... just the "Cast it a month ago and then resist attacks until the DM counts."

[Tacoma]

You should get the 2nd Ed. Wizard's Compendium books. Four volumes, they have a set for Clerics too. Every spell in the game up to their printing date.

Some specifically tasty ones are:

Charge (L2) You charge up an object with 2hp/lv electric energy. It discharges on the toucher when someone other than you touches it. Save half. Perm. until discharged.
(Cast it on all your darts, each article of clothing, your pouch, etc.)

Nemicron's Transference (L6) You exchange one physical property of an object with another object of similar mass. Perm. duration.
(Exchange the "durability" of a suit of platemail with that of your clothes. Exchange the "flammability" of a rock with a scroll. Exchange the "fluidity" of a gallon of water with eight pounds of gold. Then when you've molded it exchange the properties again with a second casting.)

Shroud of Frost (L1) Covers the target in a frigid coat of frost that causes no damage. Grass, moss, etc. versions are available. Rounds of duration.
(Perfect for camouflage, covering loud surfaces for sneaking, cooling off int he desert, and looking badass.)

Jalartan's Miraculum (L3) Cast on yourself to negate the need to use a material component in a spell you cast later. You can't carry more than one Miraculum active on you at once, so you'll have to recast later. Perm until discharged.
(No more spending 5,000 GP on Wall of Force)

Wish (L9) Wish can raise a statistic one point per casting up to 16, then 1/10th point per casting up to 25. Unfortunately you age 3 years per casting and are debilitated for (a week?). Then again an Elixir of Youth costs far less than a magic item to give you a permanent point of CON.

[quillbreaker]

Heh. Are you aware that the dart-specialized fighter is one of the strongest (and silliest) fighter builds in 2E?

For bonus broken, add in the psionic power Adrenaline Control. Nothing like pushing your strength past 19 and issuing a burst of darts every round. The character I had do it was named Dugris "Shotgun" McRee.

[Tacoma]

Plus Darts of Hornet's Nest +1. You get something like 4d6 darts shot per dart thrown.

In Player's Option: Skills and Powers there was a nonweapon proficiency Throwing. Effectively every proficiency slot you put into it gives you +10' range and +1 to hit or damage. You'd choose for each throw which you wanted, and you could split it up so if you had four slots in it your ranges would be +40' and your total bonus +4. That could be +4 to hit and +0 damage, or +2/+2.

Which means, the best dart fighter was actually an Elven F/M/T with the Myrmidon kit. The kit gives you a free weapon specialization. You choose shuriken. +1/+2 and multiple attacks per round. You have (4/3, 1/4, 2/3) 7 weapon and 10 nonweapon profs at first level. You're a Grey Elf, which means you can be comfortably 260 years old at the start. That grants you +16 nonweapon proficiencies. Not slots - proficiencies. Regardless of how many slots per prof.

Then you take a Martial Art style from the Ninja Handbook, Hard Style, Weapon Method. You choose all weapons to be usable in your method, because it doesn't specify. Then you learn a second style, Soft, Weapon Method. You combine them for free taking the best of each in the new style. Now you have +3 AC, +1 attack/round, and +2 weapon damage. Your shuriken do d4, but you'd do d6 because of the martial art style. Your style includes only Iron Skin, All-Round Sight, and Meditation, plus the two weapon forms. You've spent two nonweapon prof slots on this. You spend another 5 learning all the special moves.

Now you learn swimming, read/write, and spellcraft. You're out of nonweapon profs.

You spend 16 elf slots on Throwing. You now have effectively +8 to hit and damage, but you can shift those around as I described above.

Get ahold of a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power (18/00 str) ASAP. This should be absolutely your first magic item.

Without the gauntlets, assuming no stat bonuses, wearing no armor but with the Armor spell up, you're doing:

Attacks: 5/1
THAC0: 11
Damage: d6+10
AC: -1
Shuriken Short Range: 190'

By the time the single-class fighters in the group are level 9, you'll be about 7/7/7 or so. You put all your nonweapon slots into Throwing, which is now 21. You'll look like this, assuming you have those gauntlets by now:

Attacks: 6/1
THAC0: -1
Damage: d6+19
AC: -1
Shuriken Short Range: 240'

BTW, a bow has a short range of only 120' as I recall.
You get a 7th attack per round at 13th level fighter. Or 12, I forget. Haste doubles this, remember. And by that level you hit any creature in the universe on anything but a natural "1" and your Shuriken short range covers the entire play area, and your average damage if you hit all but once per round is 140. With the right magic items you can easily push this over 200 average.

Being a Grey Elf, you might have a pretty good INT. You can weasel all those intelligence language slots into proficiencies instead because grey elves "understand all spoken languages" out of elf's complete handbook. You could eke out another +2/+3 with your darts due to higher Throwing proficiency.

And if you can convince your DM that small shuriken can be used in melee for 1 damage per attack (seems reasonable) you can spend 2 of your early weapon prof slots on Bladesong and get one of the following on a round to round basis:

One Free Parry
+2 AC
+2 to hit and damage

I'd choose the AC myself.

There are very few other types of character that can approach this. If he throws seven Darts of Hornet's Nest +1 in a round, there is no 2E character that can approach it.

[Matthew]

Which means, the best dart fighter was actually an Elven F/M/T with the Myrmidon kit. The kit gives you a free weapon specialization. You choose shuriken. +1/+2 and multiple attacks per round. You have (4/3, 1/4, 2/3) 7 weapon and 10 nonweapon profs at first level. You're a Grey Elf, which means you can be comfortably 260 years old at the start. That grants you +16 nonweapon proficiencies. Not slots - proficiencies. Regardless of how many slots per prof.

You probably realise this, but just to be clear for the other poor readers:

1) Kits from the Complete Fighter's Handbook are not available to multi class characters.
2) Weapon Specialisation is not available at first level to a multi class character.
3) That is not how proficiencies are calculated for multi class characters (and I have no idea where this age related proficiency stuff is coming from - oh wait, I know; that's completely against the spirit of that optional rule).

Amusing munchkinnery, though.

[Grail]

Yes, because a 4th level spell should never be able to do that.

Freedom of Movement, yes. But does that also stop that Vorpal sword from decapitating you with a natural 20? Or that strike by Orcus with his wand?

hmmmm

[Tacoma]

Yeah it is pretty interesting. We never actually DID stuff like this though. Though experiment all the way.

Now I recall that rule in the FHB about kits being only for single-class warriors. But other books allowed you to take a kit if one of your classes could take it, and of course you could take only one anyway. We just houseruled it smooth.

And if the kit says you get a free specialization ... uh ...

I never read the specialization level rule anywhere! But it's not like I know everything about it. Is it Arcana, or PHB2, or player's option? I know the weapon master stuff in PO had a level requirement. We never used the more complex weapon mastery thing.

Oh the elf proficiency thing was Complete Elf's Handbook. You get dancing, singing, and musical instrument plus one nonweapon proficiency per decade over 100. Kind of compensated for "I should be level 20 by the time I'm leaving home at 100" problem. Or do elves wear diapers for 10+ years?

[Matthew]

Yeah it is pretty interesting. We never actually DID stuff like this though. Thought experiment all the way.

Heh, no doubt. I hear tell this sort of thing did actually go in games, but illegal class combinations were merely the tip of the iceberg!

Now I recall that rule in the FHB about kits being only for single-class warriors. But other books allowed you to take a kit if one of your classes could take it, and of course you could take only one anyway. We just houseruled it smooth.

Yeah, I think a lot of folks did that. The Complete Book of Elves certainly allowed for it with its own kits.

And if the kit says you get a free specialization ... uh ...

I never read the specialization level rule anywhere! But it's not like I know everything about it. Is it Arcana, or PHB2, or player's option? I know the weapon master stuff in PO had a level requirement. We never used the more complex weapon mastery thing.

Yeah, until Player's Option: Skills & Powers multi class characters could never gain weapon specialisation (single class fighters only). S&P allowed for it at level three or something. Of course, as with the above, these things could be house ruled away no problem (and often were). Sometimes you actually had to create a house rule to get a supplement to work, as in the case of the Samurai kit which required two weapon specialisations, even though a level one fighter could only ever have one!

Oh the elf proficiency thing was Complete Elf's Handbook. You get dancing, singing, and musical instrument plus one nonweapon proficiency per decade over 100. Kind of compensated for "I should be level 20 by the time I'm leaving home at 100" problem. Or do elves wear diapers for 10+ years?

Yeah, I figured that after a while of thinking. Amusing. I could certainly imagine someone hypothetically arguing for it (Come on, my elf has been practicing for 160 years!)

[Tacoma]

Now I always interpreted the bonus specialization in those kits, Samurai / Myrmidon / Gladiator, to mean that you got the base proficiency and the specialization for free. A bonus. As in no payment. You'd get the spec. and four standard slots for being a Fighter.

I don't want to wade through 2,500 pages of 2E material. Do you know where it says this stuff? And the thing with multiclass chars not getting all the proficiencies for all their classes?

[Matthew]

Now I always interpreted the bonus specialization in those kits, Samurai / Myrmidon / Gladiator, to mean that you got the base proficiency and the specialization for free. A bonus. As in no payment. You'd get the spec. and four standard slots for being a Fighter.

I don't want to wade through 2,500 pages of 2E material. Do you know where it says this stuff? And the thing with multiclass chars not getting all the proficiencies for all their classes?

I surely do.

Complete Fighter's Handbook (beginning of the kit chapter)

Weapon Proficiencies: When required to take a specific Weapon Proficiency, the warrior must take that from the number of slots he has available to “spend.”

Non Weapon Proficiencies: But these required Nonweapon Proficiencies are bonuses—given in addition to the nonweapon proficiency choices you normally choose. Sometimes a bonus proficiency will come from a group other than the General or Warrior groups, but, since it’s a bonus, it doesn’t matter how many extra slots it would otherwise be required to occupy.

Needlessly confusing, but the gist of things is that "Required Weapon Proficiencies" must be purchased to access the kit, whilst "Required Non Weapon Proficiencies" are bonuses. This was also changed in later supplements so that "Bonus Non Weapon Proficiencies" were clearly marked as such.

The problem of multiple specialisation requirements came up in Sage Advice back in 1989 and Zeb's answer was "PHB/DMG takes precedent."

As to multi class proficiencies...

Player's Handbook (end of the class section):

Multi Class benefits and Restrictions: If the optional proficiency system is used, the character starts with the largest number of proficiency slots of the different classes. Thereafter, he gains new proficiency slots at the fastest of the given rates.

So, a Warrior/Wizard type would get 4 WP and 4 NWP, a new WP every three fighter levels, and a new NWP every three magician levels.

[Paul H]

Hi

Much simpler with an Elf. Play a Ftr/Mage War Wizard (who can specialise in weapons). Certainly one of my favourite classes. (Elf Thief/Mage kit was other one).

Since the character is Human, how does the GM feel about kits, and will they allow them to be added after character creation?

Looking at Militant Wizard, Wizard's Handbook Pg 39.

Can't be a specialist in Charm/Illusion. Must have proficiency in one of following:
Battle Axe, Bow (any), Crossbow (any), Dagger, Javelin, Sling, Spear, Sword (any), Warhammer.

There are some specific bonuses & disadvantages. I can post them if anyone's interested.

As to the original post, here's some from the Wizard's book:

3rd) Inviible Mail, Iron Mind
4th) Fire Aura
5th) Invulnerability to non-magical Wpns.
6th) Invulnerability to magical Wpns.
8th) Fear Ward.

Cheers
Paul H

[Thane of Fife]

Since your Strength is at least 15, the 2nd level Strength spell could potentially be very helpful.

I believe that there's also a spell called Summon Swarm (or possibly Summon Insects - can't remember which is the Priest version) which was fairly nasty, and could tie up spellcasters.

The classic Fireball and Lightning Bolt spells are also classic for a reason.