Hidecarved Dragon PC

[Person_Man]

Hidecarved Dragon is a nifty PrC from the Draconomicon. It grants its class level as a bonus to natural Spell Resistance, +5 DR (which specifically improves existing DR), +6 Natural Armor, some energy resistance/immunity, and a few other minor perks. It also has full BAB, all strong Saves, d12 hit die, and 4 Skill points per level from an decent list. Here are the requirements:

Race: Any Dragon
Alignment: Any Lawful
Natural Armor Bonus: +20
Base Save Bonus: Will +12
Feat: Iron Will

What would be the best way for a PC to get into this PrC?

Here's what I can think of:

Race: Dragonwraught Kobold, Half Dragon, or Ambush Drake.
Natural Armor Bonus: Racial + template + feat + graft + class levels.
Base Save Bonus: Multiclass heavily
SR (needed to make the class playable): Race or template

I'm thinking that some combination of Crucian (+8 NA, +2 LA, Sandstorm), Half Dragon (+4 NA, +3 LA), Void Mind (+4 NA, +3 LA, SR, DR), Woodling (+7 NA, +3 LA, DR) and crazy multi-classing will be needed. But I can't seem to get it to work by ECL 8 so that I can enter Hidecarved Dragon at ECL 9. Also, even though it ends up being a great tank (ridiculous Saves, SR, AC, great stats, etc), it's BAB will be garbage. So I'm not sure what it will do for offense, except maybe Grapple enemies a lot using its ridiculous Str.

Suggestions?

[Adumbration]

A tough one, and though I can't think of anything new to contribute, the Crucean Half-dragon Woodling seems like the way to go. Catch that +1 to NA from some graft.

[Keld Denar]

Remember, you can use items to qualify for PrCs. An Amulet of Natural Armor +5 would knock that NA requirement down to 15, since I'm pretty sure NA from different sources stack.

Also, you might consider purchasing some spellcasting to get PAOed into a Troglodite or Annis Hag, both of which have pretty high NA on their own. Then again, getting PAOed would probably knock out any NA you had from 1/2 Dragon or whatever. Hmmm, sorry for the stream of consiousness post...

What about 1/2 dragon non-psionic thri-kreen? They get some NA as well, and tack on Woodling to that (make sure your 1/2 dragon is Gold, Brass, or Red to negate fire vulnerability) and you might get close.

And yea, your right, your AB will be silly low. Maybe get a high Cha and use the Goad feat? Tripping is also non-AB related, as long as your can make the touch attack, and having a high str from all of those templates will definitely help out.

[Tacoma]

Remember, you can use items to qualify for PrCs. An Amulet of Natural Armor +5 would knock that NA requirement down to 15, since I'm pretty sure NA from different sources stack.

Really? I'm ... I don't know which to ask about first. OK.

First, and I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but using items to qualify for PrC seems broken. I could start a service for adventurers who want to qualify for a PrC as their second level, they put on the rented gear and level up, hand it back, I make some pretty coin.

Second, as far as I understood it, the bonus slot system has only two parameters. Bonus type and affected feature. For an amulet of natural armor, the bonus type is "Natural Armor" and the affected feature is "Armor Class". Similarly a Ring of Protection is "Deflection" and "AC". That said, if all the race and template and PrC natural armor bonuses just raise your personal Natural Armor value, as in making your physical hide thicker, I guess there's some question as to whether the amulet of natural armor stacks with those other natural armor bonuses. People could claim either way.

[tyckspoon]

I guess there's some question as to whether the amulet of natural armor stacks with those other natural armor bonuses. People could claim either way.

"giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5"

There's no either way about it; the Amulet of Natural Armor works the same way as enhancement bonuses to Armor and Shield AC bonuses. It'll stack with any other Natural Armor, but not another Natural Armor Enhancement (like the Barkskin spell.)

[Tacoma]

Oh cool. That makes sense.

[Keld Denar]

Its always been in the rules, but the FAQ clarifies it. For example, a character with a 12 str who possesses a pair of Gaunlets of Ogre Power has an effective str of 14, high enough to qualify for Power Attack (13+). If the character takes off the Gauntlets, or is str damaged by a Shadow, he loses the ability to use the feat until his str once again increases above the requirements. Same thing with PrCs.

The problem with early entry into most PrCs, is that they specify BASE abilities. BAB, base saves, skill ranks, etc. You can't fake those. Wearing a Cloak of Resistance +5 won't do anything to meet the above will save requirement of +12, neither will taking Iron Will or Steadfast Determination. Only base increase to will save, those you get from a class level, count.

The Natural Armor requirement above makes no such distinction.

[Darrin]

What would be the best way for a PC to get into this PrC?

Can you stack a bunch of templates like Woodling, Mineral Warrior, or Voidmind on the bottom half of a Tauric template? Maybe start with a Dwarf Ancestor...

Hmm. Half-Golem: Iron is +11 Natural Armor, but I have no idea what the LA would be. Mummified is +10 Natural Armor.

There are at least three fairly cheap grafts from Magic of Eberron at +1 NA each.

The +12 Will may be tougher. Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Hexblade 1/Incarnate 1/Samurai 1(OA) gets you up to +10 Will and +5 BAB, from there you can dip a PrC for another +2 Will. Hmm... can't really use Tauric at that point, since it changes your type to Monstrous Humanoid, and there's isn't enough room for Half-Dragon on top of that. Dragonwrought kobold gives you another 2 levels to play with, but the best templates I can find that would fit there would be Voidmind (+4 NA) and Mineral Warrior (+3 NA).

Using a one-level Dragon PC (Dragon #320 or #332) means you don't have to blow a feat on Dragonwrought kobold, and all dragons have good saves, but with only 1 HD they don't have any NA, SR, or other interesting abilities.

[Person_Man]

Hmmm, using items would help out on the natural armor problem a lot. But if your DM ever gets pissed at you, he could have someone Sunder or Sleight of Hand it. A safer bet would be the Scaley Skin Yaun-Ti Graft (Serpant Kingdoms), which gives you +3 unnamed bonus to natural armor for 36,000 gp.

Could you use Wildshape or a Lycanthrope or Entomanothrope to qualify? You'd be utterly nerfed when in your dragonwraught kobold (or whatever) form. But you could basically be in your animal or hybrid form all day. Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape or some similar feat might help out a lot with this.

[The Glyphstone]

This would actually be very entertaining in Gestalt...stacking the +8 total LA on one side of the progression while dipping like crazy into classes with +2 LA at 1st level - oh, and hope that your DM doesn't enforce partial BAB/Saves.

[Alleine]

This and this should be relevant. Though I believe they were restricting certain classes if I recall correctly. They wanted a 3.5 only build. The Forsaker PrC was a great way to help get into Hidecarved Dragon, but is 3.0. I think it gave NA bonuses and was ridiculously easy to get into, like one of the few PrCs you could get into by 4th level. Unfortunately that requires you to lose all magical items forever.

EDIT: For a very nice, but extremely shaky bonus to con: Forsaker 3 gives CON bonus as a bonus to NA.

[Darrin]

Hmmm, using items would help out on the natural armor problem a lot. But if your DM ever gets pissed at you, he could have someone Sunder or Sleight of Hand it. A safer bet would be the Scaley Skin Yaun-Ti Graft (Serpant Kingdoms), which gives you +3 unnamed bonus to natural armor for 36,000 gp.

Ok, here's what I've got so far...

Dragonwrought Kobold (for the +1 NA)

1) Duskblade
2) Knight
3) Samurai (OA version)
4) Hexblade
5) Incarnate
6) Warrior of Darkness (BoVD, for another +1 NA) Use Flaw or Otyuph Hole for Iron Will.

Feats:
1) Dragonwrought
3) Improved Natural Armor, +1 NA
6) Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt, +2 to +4 NA

Templates:
Mineral Warrior +1 LA, +3 NA.
Blooded One +1 LA, +2 NA.

That's BAB +6, Will +12, +12 NA.

Grafts (apparently only one type allowed):
Chitin Plating (Silthilar, LoM p. 219): +1 to +5, 4000 GP to 100000 GP (does not stack with racial NA)
Plated Skin (Beholder, FF p. 209): +4 NA, 64000 GP.
Scaly Skin (Yuan-Ti, FF p. 215): +3 NA, 36000 GP.
Bonemail (Undead, FF p. 214): +2 NA, 16000 GP.
Fiendish Skin (Fiendish, FF p. 210): +1 NA, 55000 GP.
Bone Plating (Deathless, MoE p. 128): +1 NA, 6000 GP.
Stony Plating (Earth, MoE p. 133): +1 NA, 2800 GP.
Treebark Carapace (Plant, MoE p. 136): +1 NA, 3200 GP.
Gleaming Scales (Draconic, RotD p. 129): +1 NA, 9000 GP.

So, Scaly Skin + Amulet of Natural Armor would get you to +20 NA. Once you got another +5 NA via Hidecarved or whatever, you could lose the amulet and still keep your class abilities.

[togapika]

Meet the requirements using magic items to add to your natural armor, but only enough so that by the time you finish the class, the bonuses to natural armor the class features gave you allow you to meet the requirements to enter it in the first place.

[Alleine]

Uhhh, are you guys sure that its legal to qualify for a PrC with the PrC itself?
That seems... unlikely. Especially if Person_Man is trying to get this past a DM.

[jcsw]

Uhhh, are you guys sure that its legal to qualify for a PrC with the PrC itself?
That seems... unlikely. Especially if Person_Man is trying to get this past a DM.

Are you kidding? That would possibly be the most legal thing about his build.

(Besides, look at the survivor PrC... Taking the class makes you less able to take the next level...)

[Alleine]

Are you kidding? That would possibly be the most legal thing about his build.

(Besides, look at the survivor PrC... Taking the class makes you less able to take the next level...)

I tried working this out a while back, and by RAW it's pretty doable. Confusing, messy, and extremely odd? Yes, but still legal.

Also, where is the Survivor PrC?

[Person_Man]

Also, where is the Survivor PrC?

Savage Species

OK, so Darrin has basically nailed down a way to enter the PrC with only +2ish LA, which could easily be bought off by ECL 20. Bravo.

The only thing the build is missing is Spell Resistance. The biggest perk of the Hidecarved Dragon PrC is that it adds its class level to your natural (not from a class or item) Spell Resistance. So if you have natural SR 10 + HD, then a Whatever 8/Hidecarved Dragon 12 would have SR 42, enough to beat almost anything that doesn't bypass SR.

Thoughts on the best way to get a SR that isn't capped? For example, Half Celestial will give it to you for +2 LA, but it has a max of 35.

[Adumbration]

One way to get it is through the feat from Draconomicon: Awaken Spell Resistance, but it has a major flaw for your purposes. It scales off Racial HD, as in, you gain SR equal to your Racial HD. This sucks, but it doesn't have an upper limit, and you can boost it with the prestige class and a certain vest from DMG II. You can also take it multiple times, each time gaining +2 to your SR - good if you have extra Flaws, otherwise very possibly a waste of feat.

I can't think of a template at the moment... Pixie as a base race has no upper cap for the SR, but that's all I can remember.

EDIT: Ouch, I just realized that you don't have racial HD at all.

[Darrin]

Thoughts on the best way to get a SR that isn't capped? For example, Half Celestial will give it to you for +2 LA, but it has a max of 35.

Whoops, Blooded One can't be applied to a dragon. There may be another +1 template out there that adds +2 NA, or you can just upgrade your graft to +5 NA. Draconic might work... +1 LA for +1 NA. Or take just the first level of the half-dragon template class for +2 NA (from the Savage Progression article).

As an Incarnate, take the Spellward Shirt soulmeld. Gain SR 5 + 4 per essentia. It doesn't have a maximum listed, but is capped by your essentia capacity. If you take Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, after 18th level it caps out at 5 + (4 x 5) = 25. Assuming this counts as a "natural" spell resistance, the Hidecarved Dragon would get up to +12 on top of that.

I can't seem to find any templates out there that add SR without a hefty LA or changing the creature type.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, what about an item of X/Day barkskin at high CL? Or some other natural armor inducing spell (IIRC, bite of the Were spells give Natural Armor bonuses too)? That way, you could pop the usage when entering combat (potentially even as a swift action, if you get the item as, say, a charm of quickened barkskin or an eternal wand of barkskin with a metamagic wand sheathe (quicken))? If you go that route, you'd be able to basically turn on your class features when you needed them most--sort of like a draconic Bruce Banner, if you will.

[Ascension]

you'd be able to basically turn on your class features when you needed them most--sort of like a draconic Bruce Banner, if you will.

"RAARH! HULK GET HIDECARVED!"?

[AmberVael]

Whoops, Blooded One can't be applied to a dragon. There may be another +1 template out there that adds +2 NA

Try Half Satyr, Half Minotaur, or Half Ogre (unfortunately all from Dragon magazine, but oh well).


Alternately, if you're feeling cheesy you could go Kobold, add the feral template, add the mineral warrior template, and then take the Dragonwrought feat.

Feral is a really unbalanced template though, and comes from Savage Species...

[Rei_Jin]

Wow, Ninjas...

I was going to suggest a Feral Draconic Mineral Warrior Voidmind Dragonwrought Kobold. It's a +6 LA and gives you +14 Natural Armor, leaving you to take 6 dips to get the +12 Will save required.

Then, all you need is an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and to pick up a Gleaming Skin Graft from Races of the Dragon.

Voila! +20 Natural Armor

[Person_Man]

Just realized that we could also use Alter Self to get in. If you have the Dragon type, you can turn into any Dragon with 5 HD or less. A wyrmling Shadow Dragon (4 HD, Draconomicon pg 191) has +7 NA. Theoretically you could use Polymorph the same way to get pretty much any NA, though only for a much shorter duration.

In Shadow Dragon form with a graft, Wormtail Belt soulmeld, Amulet of Natural Armor or Wand of Barkskin, and some feats, you could get to +20 NA with 0 LA. That leaves you 8 class levels to get the +12 Will, which is pretty easy with some multi-classing.

That just leaves the SR problem. Unfortunately, I don't think that Spellward Shirt soulmeld counts as "natural" spell resistance. But hey, if a DM is letting you go through such crazyness to get into the class, they'll probably let you continue to be crazy to use its primary class ability.

Slightly off topic, does anyone know a way for a PC to get SR 41 (or higher) other then Hidecarved Dragon? Doing so would pretty much negate 95% of the magic thrown against you. It'd be great for tank builds.

[AmberVael]

Slightly off topic, does anyone know a way for a PC to get SR 41 (or higher) other then Hidecarved Dragon? Doing so would pretty much negate 95% of the magic thrown against you. It'd be great for tank builds.

It would be important to specify around what level you want to see that SR 41 or higher. After all, getting that at ECL 20 is easier than at ECL, say... 8.

[Person_Man]

It would be important to specify around what level you want to see that SR 41 or higher. After all, getting that at ECL 20 is easier than at ECL, say... 8.

Obviously earlier is better then latter, but even getting high SR at level 20 is a good thing. I'm guessing that the ideal SR would be 23ish + ECL, on the theory that if your DM throws a caster at you that's more then 3 levels higher then your party then you're screwed no matter what you do.

But it's really more of a general question then a specific build goal - how do we optimize SR? Maybe I'll start another thread after doing some research.

[Darrin]

Slightly off topic, does anyone know a way for a PC to get SR 41 (or higher) other then Hidecarved Dragon? Doing so would pretty much negate 95% of the magic thrown against you. It'd be great for tank builds.

Hmm. Apparently SR is difficult to optimize. The best I can get is Incarnate 18 with +3 soulmeld capacity, Spellward Shirt, 5 + (4 x 7) = 33. Daxxyz's Vest (DMGII p. 267, 25000 GP) adds +5. There's a feat in BoVD, "Boost Spell Resistance" by +2 SR, but it only boosts "innate" spell resistance, whatever that means (probably not a soulmeld).

And this is *really* annoying. Soulmelds can be dispelled, so one measly little Dispel Magic (which ignores SR) gets rid of the Spellward Shirt.

Looking at templates... Voidmind (10 + HD, no max) or Spellwarped (11 + HD, no max, buffs if spell successfully resisted) look like the best, but are both LA +3.

There are some classes/PrCs that grant SR, but most just add class level. Only one stands out as promising: Gray Hand Enforcer 4 (from Waterdeep: City of Splendors), SR = 5 + character level. But the will save is abysmal.

Hmm. Bariaur maybe? Only +1 LA, SR = 11 + class level... but is that a typo? Don't they mean character level?

The only way to get everything you want might be the Tauric template. Load a bunch of templates on a medium monstrous centipede (1HD) or ... I can't find any medium animals with only 1HD. And I'm not sure dragonwrought would work with that, since putting a kobold into a tauric creature creates a monstrous humanoid that isn't necessarily a kobold anymore. The only easy way to become a dragon type after that is the somewhat cumbersome half-dragon template with LA +3 or a polymorph spell.

[AmberVael]

Really, probably the best way to optimize SR is to gain SR via a template or other racial ability and then gain the Dragon Type. After that you can just take Awaken Spell Resistance a ton of times for +2 SR each time. I'm having a hard time finding a level effective way to do that though. You're looking at pretty steep LA to do it.

[Darrin]

Found another way to become a dragon:

Essence of the Dragon (RotD, p. 112), Sorcerer 2. Changes your type to dragon for the duration of the spell. A continuous item of "I wanna be a dwagon" should be in the neighborhood of 24000 GP.

Start with Bauriar for the SR (assuming 11 + character level), add Mineral Warrior for +3 NA, and try the Duskblade/Hexblade/Knight/Incarnate/Samurai/Warrior of Darkness for the will save thing. Maybe Precocious Apprentice for Alter Self (not a Duskblade spell, though), or a continuous Alter Self item for 18000 GP.

[Fax Celestis]

You know, it's only 1200 gp to get someone to cast PAO on you.