Mystic Theurge [3.5]

[Assassin89]

In my D&D sessions, I play a 3rd level Cleric with the healing and good domains. I plan to reach 14th level in return to elemental evil and multiclass to wizard. What I am asking is how I should set up my wizard levels, because I already have the necessary ranks in knowledge (religion) and knowledge (arcana). In the case of barred schools, I do not want the simple take divination and then take spell focus(school I would want to take).

Edit: I forgot to mention the feats my character has:
Sacred Boost (from complete divine)
Augment Healing (from complete divine)

[jcsw]

In before someone says it's a trap!

But really:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860220

[Kurald Galain]

Depends on what you want, really.

The best schools are conjuration and transmutation.

There are numerous different class features in case you don't want a familiar, or don't need scribe scroll.

You may be able to get into MT with only one wizard level, using Precocious Apprentice (which you should really have taken at first level, though, and the legality of this trick is dubious at best).

[Curmudgeon]

Mystic Theurge is the Swiss Army Knife of spellcasting. It's not the optimal choice for any dedicated tool-user, but it's got lots of options in one package. Mystic Theurges are pretty good when you don't have enough information to anticipate the best selection of spells, simply because MTs can prepare so very many spells.

You'll be behind on caster levels, so the obvious answer is to get Practiced Spellcaster, which you can do for either or both of your base classes. I also suggest going with the Immediate Magic Wizard variant in Players Handbook II.

[Dacia Brabant]

In my D&D sessions, I play a 3rd level Cleric with the healing and good domains. I plan to reach 14th level in return to elemental evil and multiclass to wizard. What I am asking is how I should set up my wizard levels, because I already have the necessary ranks in knowledge (religion) and knowledge (arcana). In the case of barred schools, I do not want the simple take divination and then take spell focus.

Funny, I also played a Mystic Theurge in a Return to ToEE campaign. The class is a trap though as jcsw said, but it can be used as filler to get you into better dual-progression classes or once you're no longer able to level in the better PrC.

That said, there really aren't any better dual-progression options with what you're starting with, at least that I can think of. My suggestion is to see if you can use an early-entry method into MT on the Arcane side of your casting (as in, only having to take one level of Wizard) and then go MT from level 5-14. Your specialization would depend on your role in the party (likely crowd control/debuffing or buffing/support) but Evocation and Abjuration are probably the best choices for barred schools since Evocation sucks and you'll have access to many of the Abjuration spells on your Cleric list. (Or you could ban Necromancy, since a lot of the spells don't seem to fit your character concept, though I wouldn't recommend dropping it since you'd lose Spectral Hand, one of the best low-level spells for a Cleric/Wizard.)

I'm not sure you'll be able to do an early-entry trick though since you've already created the character and a lot of those methods need to be started at level 1, either in race or starting feat choices.

[Assassin89]

That said, there really aren't any better dual-progression options with what you're starting with, at least that I can think of. My suggestion is to see if you can use an early-entry method into MT on the Arcane side of your casting (as in, only having to take one level of Wizard) and then go MT from level 5-14. Your specialization would depend on your role in the party (likely crowd control/debuffing or buffing/support) but Evocation and Abjuration are probably the best choices for barred schools since Evocation sucks and you'll have access to many of the Abjuration spells on your Cleric list. (Or you could ban Necromancy, since a lot of the spells don't seem to fit your character concept, though I wouldn't recommend dropping it since you'd lose Spectral Hand, one of the best low-level spells for a Cleric/Wizard.)

I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

[Eldariel]

I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

To be honest, Magic Missile is rarely so good that you should prepare it until you literally can't make use out of your level 1 slots to start with; it does steady damage, but very low damage and generally you don't need to deal any to end encounters. And Gloves of the Starry Sky [MiC] actually allows you to cast the spell with banned Evocation. So it's hardly a reason not to ban Evocation. Lesser Orbs of X are generally superior to Magic Missile anyways.

[jcsw]

I wouldn't ban anything at all, you're a mystic theurge, you don't need any more quantity.

[Assassin89]

I wouldn't ban anything at all, you're a mystic theurge, you don't need any more quantity.

The problem is setting the wizard levels.

I think a little more information is necessary

CG Human
Deity: Pelor
Str 10 Dex 5 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 11

Any recommended familiars, schools for being a wizard, or should I take a different class for arcane spells?

[Keld Denar]

Int 12

I hope you are planning on buying a Headband of Int or some such, otherwise, you are limited to level 2 spells, maximal. You still get the higher level spell slots, you just can't fill em with anything. Also unfortuante, there arn't really and wisdom based arcane casters. Maybe something psionic and use Psychic Theurge?

[monty]

Are you stuck with those stats? If possible, then, trade Cleric for Archivist so you can put the 18 in Int and actually have competent casting in both classes.

[Assassin89]

Are you stuck with those stats? If possible, then, trade Cleric for Archivist so you can put the 18 in Int and actually have competent casting in both classes.

Yes, I am stuck with those stats, and the character has already been created because I am on a continuing setting where my character is working off a debt for a great conjurer.

[monty]

Yes, I am stuck with those stats, and the character has already been created because I am on a continuing setting where my character is working off a debt for a great conjurer.

Then I'd strongly suggest not going into wizard, because you'd be getting almost nothing out of it and severely retarding your cleric advancement.

[holywhippet]

You could take at best 2 levels of mystic theurge before you stop getting any benefit out of it. You'd still be getting divine spells but no arcane spells and you miss out on the benefits of levelling up as a cleric. If you had higher charisma (I'm slightly surprised you don't since it is handy for a cleric) you could go for sorcerer instead.

[Flickerdart]

Mystic Theurge isn't a trap if you use Ur-priest for your Divine casting. If you can rebuild, do so and start with Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2.

[Rei_Jin]

Looking at your stats, I'd be inclined rather to take the few levels you need in Wizard, then go into the Geomancer class. At least then you'll be able to cast higher level Wizard spells, and whilst wearing armor no less.

Of course, this is not a path to power, but with the stats that you have, I hardly think that your game is an overpowering experiment in optimisation.

[ericgrau]

This is salvageable. You can get a headband of intellect in time for your higher level spells. You may want to boost int every 4 levels if necessary to keep up, not wis. With a lower main stat and lower spell levels, I would not count on having high spell save DCs. You could also do the same with charisma and sorcerer levels.

It looks like you want to play a healer/damage dealer. This is viable, though you could do better with more complicated/clever spells. Remember that you can't heal and deal damage in the same round; you'll have to do one or the other or half and half. i.e., you'll be more versatile but weaker.

For starters you'll have tons of extra spell slots so try spending them on long duration buffs in the morning. You shouldn't be using low level spells for healing anyway; so you can burn those up. Now you can save your high level healing for allies that are about to die, and burn wizard spells in the meantime for damage. Get tons of low level utility (e.g., comprehend languages) & restorative (remove X, restoration, etc., etc.) spells on scrolls. Since you'll have scrolls from two classes, this will make you extremely versatile in the face of odd situations. Since utility spells don't come up very often they belong on scrolls only, not your spell list.

If you want something more complicated & effective, I would look at other spell options besides healing and damage. Mass disabling spells tend to be powerful (walls/barriers, AoE save-or-suck, etc.), as are non-stat buffs. "Non-stat buffs" that have some special effect, not a +X bonus. But you can still cast +X stat buffs in the morning or right before combat without wasting combat time. Illusions are another option. All of these also have more good low level options, unlike damage spells which are more level dependent. Stay away from save-or-dies that only trigger 1 save, especially since your save DC is low.

Feats: You could get empower to augment damage and healing. I wouldn't get spell focus, as you shouldn't be relying too much on saves anyway. If you use a lot of low level buffs a rod of lesser extend may be helpful. For high level buffs you'd get the extend spell feat. A magic item creation feat or two is a good option, since you have two classes to pull prerequisite spells from. Especially if you get practiced spellcaster to keep your caster level up.

[Dacia Brabant]

I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

Well I disagree though I'm not gonna get into the direct-damage vs. utility/save-or-else argument, but I wouldn't make a choice on specialization just for one spell. (Unless that one spell is Charm Person maybe.)

And I concur with others who've said that your Int and Cha are both too low to make Mystic Theurge worthwhile, or even any levels in a casting class based on those stats. Perhaps look into Psychic Warrior, which is Wis-based and will get you into Psychic Theurge at Cleric 3/Psychic Warrior 4. Psionics aren't my forte though so I can't help much more than that.

[Mando Knight]

Question: Would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be (slightly) less of a trap? IIRC, Favored Soul and Sorcerer are both spontaneous Charisma-Casting...

[The Glyphstone]

That's even more of a trap. Favored Soul requires Charisma for its spells/day, but uses Wisdom for its save DC's. If you only use the cleric spells for healing or buffing, when save DC is irrelevant, the pain is lessened somewhat, but it's still not good.

[Gardakan]

I have played a mystic theurge for a few games. You need to have 3 good stats. Con, Wis and Int(or Cha...).

I was having at level 12 : 24 in Int, 22 in Wis and 12 in Con(Faerie Mysteries Initiate...

[tyckspoon]

That's even more of a trap. Favored Soul requires Charisma for its spells/day, but uses Wisdom for its save DC's. If you only use the cleric spells for healing or buffing, when save DC is irrelevant, the pain is lessened somewhat, but it's still not good.

I think the bigger trap is that both classes are using the Sorcerer's delayed spell-level progression, so your minimum entry (barring early-entry tricks) into the class is at level 9. It's delayed payoff for something that isn't all that good to start with.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, go Psychic Warrior 3 and into Psychic Theurge. Your Clericzilla'ing is going to be so much better with the nice things Psychic Warriors get in terms of self-buffs.

[nightwyrm]

Question: Would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be (slightly) less of a trap? IIRC, Favored Soul and Sorcerer are both spontaneous Charisma-Casting...

That's a huge trap. Both classes have slower spell progression than their prep spell counterpart. You'll be entering into MT at level 9 and casting lv 3 spells at level 10.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the bigger trap is that both classes are using the Sorcerer's delayed spell-level progression, so your minimum entry (barring early-entry tricks) into the class is at level 9. It's delayed payoff for something that isn't all that good to start with.

Ouch, I forgot about that part.

Wizard/Archivist is probably an above sub-par choice for Theurgy, if you're going to do it anyways. You'll need an actual strength score though, to carry around your books.

[Flickerdart]

Ouch, I forgot about that part.

Wizard/Archivist is probably an above sub-par choice for Theurgy, if you're going to do it anyways. You'll need an actual strength score though, to carry around your books.

Thing is, this guy already has 3 levels of Cleric. Psychic Warrior and Psychic Theurge is pretty much the only option left, with the advantage of being SAD, for the most part (although liberal Animal Affinity will need to be applied to compensate for that STR and CON).

[Kurald Galain]

Also worth considering: a level of warlock (instead of wizard) and Eldritch Disciple.

[Leon]

In before someone says it's a trap!

But really:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860220

Its only a trap to those poor people fixated on optimizing the bejeus out over everything

[Gardakan]

It is a trap to take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard, then take 3 levels of cleric and go Mystic Theurge...

At level 14 you cast as a wizard level 11 and cleric level 13...

[warmachine]

It is a trap to take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard, then take 3 levels of cleric and go Mystic Theurge...

At level 14 you cast as a wizard level 11 and cleric level 13...

That makes no sense unless one is claiming Mystic Theurge itself is a trap. At level 14, the standard build is Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 8, casting as Wizard 11 and Cleric 11, and is worse.