[3.0 / 3.5] It's impossible to see the sun

[Tacoma]

First, assume that the D&D planet is much like Earth in size, the size of its sun, and its distance from the sun.

1: Our sun is very big. According to the size tables, anything over 64 ft tall is considered "colossal" and has a -16 to Hide. Let's be charitable and houserule that every doubling of its dimension equals a doubling of its Hide penalty. , and is 865,000 miles away. This is roughly 26 doublings past Colossal. The sun has a Hide penalty of -1,073,741,824. Roughly d20 minus 1 billion.

2: The sun is 96,000,000 miles from Earth. This accounts for a -50,688,000,000 to Spot. That's d20 minus fifty billion.

3: Go ahead and roll. Your modifiers don't matter. You have a net -49 billion to your Spot check.

In fact, by the time you got close enough to the Sun to see it, you would have already burned up.

The numbers play out for the Moon too. And all those stars in the sky? Too far away to be visible.

Fact is, when you look out over a forest at the mountain beyond it, the mountain is invisible. This is counterintuitive to those of us who are actually able to look out a window and see a mountain without actually standing on it.

So what do you think? One could houserule for the Sun's luminosity. Then a human carrying a torch would be more visible. Which makes sense.

[Human Paragon 3]

Ah, but the sun doesn't have cover or concealment, making it impossible for it to hide without Hide in Plain Site, which the sun doesn't have.

[Fan]

Wait, the sun is trying to hide from us? Last I cchecked you only needed spot if something was A: Difficult to see such as a key buried in a rubble, or B: Actively attempting to hide.

[averagejoe]

1) Spot modifiers don't work like that. You don't need to make a spot check to see things that are plain to see.

2) Your houserule for size modifiers leaves much to be desired, as it plainly makes things work how they're not supposed to work.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ah, but do we see the sun, or do we only see its light?

Wait. That's not a helpful question. Go away, Kant.

Waitaminute - if we're playing by the simplified rule that once one party member can see something, the entire party is aware of it, and we're also using critical 20 = success skill rolls, then perhaps we, the adventuring party known as the human race, can see the sun because, every six seconds, someone is looking up at the sky and rolling a natural 20? It's a D&D reworking of the 50 45 30 20 10 righteous men story.

[Heliomance]

1) Spot modifiers don't work like that. You don't need to make a spot check to see things that are plain to see.

2) Your houserule for size modifiers leaves much to be desired, as it plainly makes things work how they're not supposed to work.

Actualy, no. His houserule for the size penalty to hide actually makes it easier to see. Without that, the sun only has a -16 to its check.

[Tacoma]

As for my houserule for size mods not being good enough, I'm here pointing out how the Spot rules suck even when I make concessions. Just going by the rules it's even worse.

As for the sun not having concealment, you can plainly see the sun in real life even when there's high fog - which would count as at least partial concealment.

And finally, what I'm really trying to show here is how when you blow the problem waay up you see the obvious problems that might not be so obvious in smaller ranges. That problem is that someone trying to hide and failing spectacularly is still invisible in the middle of an empty public square if his outline is a little Blurry.

[Tacoma]

critical 20 = success skill roll

Then I can hear a baby cooing in Argentina if I listen for 20 minutes.

[holywhippet]

and we're also using critical 20 = success skill rolls

What DM in their right mind allows that rule? Some things are simply impossible without enough skill ranks. Would you allow a level 1 rogue to pick the lock on a door which was sealed by an ancient race 10,000 years ago to safeguard their most dangerous treasures, just because they rolled a 20?

[Fax Celestis]

Spot is only for creatures, and only for those that are hiding or disguised.

Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

...Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.

[monty]

Ah, but the sun doesn't have cover or concealment, making it impossible for it to hide without Hide in Plain Site, which the sun doesn't have.

You know why you can't see the sun at night? Because it's hiding.

That makes much more sense, doesn't it?

[Draz74]

I think the sun is a magic item that gives anybody or anything a +60 billion unnamed bonus to Spot it.

[Draz74]

You know why you can't see the sun at night? Because it's hiding.

That makes much more sense, doesn't it?

I retract my own attempt at humor in the face of this post, which wins the thread.

[Tacoma]

Spot is only for creatures, and only for those that are hiding or disguised.

I see what you quote, but it does say it's mainly used to do those things. What about spotting a key lying on the ground when it's in dim lighting? Search is much too specific and is used in a different way. You have to be within 10', which suggests that you cannot use Search to notice a building. And there isn't an alternative, is there?

The building is an excellent example. How far away in clear air does a building have to be before you can't see it?

And the object vs creature point is moot. Let's assume a creature of equal size and properties to the Sun pops in and swallows it, taking its place instantly. It tries to hide and fails spectacularly. But it's still invisible from Earth.

[Fax Celestis]

I see what you quote, but it does say it's mainly used to do those things. What about spotting a key lying on the ground when it's in dim lighting? Search is much too specific and is used in a different way. You have to be within 10', which suggests that you cannot use Search to notice a building. And there isn't an alternative, is there?

Rules-wise, no, there's no way to determine that sort of action. Find me a DC chart for spotting objects with the Spot skill and we'll talk.

And the object vs creature point is moot. Let's assume a creature of equal size and properties to the Sun pops in and swallows it, taking its place instantly. It tries to hide and fails spectacularly. But it's still invisible from Earth.

Well, of course it'd be not visible. It's not illuminating itself the way the sun does, so now it's dark.

[Tacoma]

Also, as for using Hide with cover, it suggests that simply having some measure of cover is enough to make a Hide check. Observe:

I walk behind a low wall. It goes up to my hips. It counts as cover. You turn around and wait until I say OK. You turn back around and look for me. I'm still standing there, in broad daylight, but you have a pretty good chance of not seeing me. Especially if you're a 100-foot city block away :/

[Tacoma]

Rules-wise, no, there's no way to determine that sort of action. Find me a DC chart for spotting objects with the Spot skill and we'll talk.

There is no reason why a statue of a dude is any different from the dude himself standing next to it in a powdered wig. I present that and suggest that to spot a Tiny object is as difficult as spotting a Tiny unmoving creature.

Well, of course it'd be not visible. It's not illuminating itself the way the sun does, so now it's dark.

Nope, I said including all its properties, including luminosity. It's exactly like the Sun but a creature, and thus able to make Hide checks.

[BobVosh]

I think you forgot to mention the sun's penalty to hiding. It is using a light source.

Also omnimancers, microbots, and punpun can see the sun. But noone else. How awesome is that?

[monty]

Nope, I said including all its properties, including luminosity. It's exactly like the Sun but a creature, and thus able to make Hide checks.

It still has no cover or concealment. Except at night.

[Fax Celestis]

Despite the fact that to your eyes and my eyes, there is no difference between the man and the statue, the game differentiates the two. It makes the assumption that when you are making a Spot check, your target is both attempting to Hide and is using some means of concealment (cover, concealment, invisibility, or otherwise) to do so. It's a mechanic aimed at versilimitude, not perfection, and as such is not going to work absolutely perfectly.

[Tacoma]

It still has no cover or concealment. Except at night.

I answered this one. High fog or thin cloud cover. That's full concealment according to the Fog rules in SRD. You can still see the sun irl though.

[Matthew]

Spot is only for creatures, and only for those that are hiding or disguised.

Whilst I agree with you, and have argued this position many times, it is only fair to point out that the confusion over this arises from that stupid DC 0 example in the PHB (p. 64):

Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

The example of the spot check as a highly abstract game rule in the DMG (p. 32) also does not help matters.

[Tacoma]

Despite the fact that to your eyes and my eyes, there is no difference between the man and the statue, the game differentiates the two. It makes the assumption that when you are making a Spot check, your target is both attempting to Hide and is using some means of concealment (cover, concealment, invisibility, or otherwise) to do so. It's a mechanic aimed at versilimitude, not perfection, and as such is not going to work absolutely perfectly.

If the mechanic leaves the man invisible, not doing anything but somehow partially covered or concealed, but leaves his identical statue next to him visible under the same conditions, simply because one is breathing and the other isn't, is just kind of funky.

Say a dude is paralyzed in place. He's still a creature and he's standing behind a low stone wall, top half visible. At some range you simply cannot see him. Yet as soon as someone kills him, assuming he's still paralyzed and just a frozen corpse standing there, same arrangement of tissues and fluids as a moment ago, he suddenly pops into view plain as day.

EDIT: So what's the point of this if not to give an alternative that's hopefully better? This one is a toughie. I've been struggling with stealth rules for a long time in my D&D project and rules that work well are typically too complex to use in a tabletop game.

I think every 10' of distance should have a penalty, but the penalty could be different based on what happened in that 10'. If it was fog, give a decent penalty. If it's clear, no penalty. Then in my Sun/Moon example we can ignore all the empty space in between. This would work the same as Listen giving a penalty for every door the sound passes. But while sound weakens quite quickly as it travels, and -1 per 10' of clear air might be appropriate, light is hardier through clear air.

I guess my original point was the system as it stands doesn't work very well. It does barely hold itself together if you don't poke it much. But right now I don't have an answer. Maybe you guys do.

[BRC]

Pointing out flaws in RAW is pointless when such a flaw exists on account of a houserule.

In fact, the oppostite is true, according to RAW, you could meet somebody for the first time, then an hour later, look at a crowded mall that they were in from 100 feet away and spot them instantly with zero chance of failure provided they wern't activly trying to hide from you.

[Fax Celestis]

As I stated, when you're making a Spot check it is assumed that your target is attempting to Hide. Voluntarily failing a Hide check (something that an object automatically does, as it does not carry a Dexterity score) allows your target to see you without a Spot check, especially since you are supposed to be attracting attention, therefore making you more noticeable.

[Tacoma]

As I stated, when you're making a Spot check it is assumed that your target is attempting to Hide. Voluntarily failing a Hide check (something that an object automatically does, as it does not carry a Dexterity score) allows your target to see you without a Spot check, especially since you are supposed to be attracting attention, therefore making you more noticeable.

And as I stated, in response to what you said the first time you said this, even if the Sun were a creature trying to hide it would still be invisible.

And the dude just standing there trying to hide, able to do so by virtue of being behind a low stone wall or with a blurry outline, is able to hide standing next to his statue buddy even though there is no difference between them.

Heck, animate the statue and tell it to stand still and "try to hide". Suddenly it disappears for no reason.

Pointing out flaws in RAW is pointless when such a flaw exists on account of a houserule.

In fact, the oppostite is true, according to RAW, you could meet somebody for the first time, then an hour later, look at a crowded mall that they were in from 100 feet away and spot them instantly with zero chance of failure provided they wern't activly trying to hide from you.

Going straight by RAW here you'd have an extra -1 billion chance to your d20 roll to see the sun-creature while it's hiding. Or trying to hide. No houserule.

[TheCountAlucard]

It's exactly like the Sun but a creature...

...how do you know the sun isn't a creature?

Spoiler

Show

[Fax Celestis]

You missed the important part:

Voluntarily failing a Hide check (something that an object automatically does, as it does not carry a Dexterity score) allows your target to see you without a Spot check.

[Tacoma]

Fax. The Sun is replaced by a completely identical creature that is just like the Sun except it's a creature and thus able to hide. Not an object. Thus we get around the tedious mistake in the rules that you pointed out and continue talking about how Spot is börkend. Even when trying to look at creatures.

[TempusCCK]

Uhh, what about the huge modifier against hide for being so intensely bright?

Do you make a spot check to see a torch? No, because it grows very brightly in a sea of darkness. The sun, if statted for some inane reason, as a creature, would have a natural negative modifier to hide due to the fact that it's a big burning ball of gas.

Why is the sun even making a hide check?

This is not a very well thought out thread. Seems to me like you want to hop onto the "3.x is fundamentally broken!" bandwagon, but you're ignoring some of the fundamentals, such as, the system assumes that inanimate objects aren't making freaking hide checks and that if something glows brightly, especially as brightly as the sun, it's going to have a huge negative mod. But, I mean, it's alright to use only part of the system to justify your ideas, and not the whole thing right?

Epic Fail.