The Testing Party (3.X)

[afroakuma]

I've been trying to independently evaluate the proper CRs for some of my homebrew monsters, but being ubiquitous on the dark side of the DM screen means I'm a bit out of touch with optimal character setup.

So, here's what I ask:

Give me an optimized four-member party consisting of one primary attacker, one primary supporter, one skillmonkey and one caster, at the level of your choice between 5th & 15th.

The rules:

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• Commonly-accepted "ridiculous" PrCs (Incantatrix, Initiate of the Seven Veils etc.) should not be used.

• Pun-Pun and similar exploit characters need not apply. If DM fiat would reasonably have intervened, it shouldn't be tried.

• Character race must be LA +0.

• Select inventory based at DMG wealth per level guidelines, including magic item selection.

• Spell Compendium, PHB II, Complete Series and Magic Item Compendium are all viable.

• Basic strategy would be welcome but not required.

Parties will be run against series of CR-appropriate encounters and scored based on how well they do.

[Tacoma]

I suggest you use the DMG NPC tables for each of the Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, and Paladin to see who does best in a series of fights against the same monster, 1 on 1. Use the second-place finisher as your fighter.

Druid for the caster.

Rogue for the skillmonkey.

Bard for support.

Although you're going to get things a little off because the Druid's animal companion will muddy things up as a second frontline fighter. If that worries you, replace with Cleric.

[afroakuma]

I've already done that; as I said, I'm not excellent at optimization, and I want to see how these fare against real players.

[TheStranger]

Keep in mind that the CR system is supposedly calibrated against poorly optimized characters (blaster wizard, anybody?) using the elite array. Just fill the major party roles with something halfway decent and go to town.

[afroakuma]

I'm not looking to try against "halfway decent," because I don't expect the players to go for half measures. I'm looking to test the viability of these monsters against powerful characters, even at levels approaching their CR.

[TheStranger]

I understand that, my point was that CRs have been assigned based on an unoptimized party, and that a fully optimized party would most likely have an easier time against existing monsters than the CR would indicate. To assign a CR to your creature that is in line with the CRs assigned by WotC, you should test against a similarly unoptimized party.

Or not, if you're just trying to determine how your characters would fare against it, rather than assign an exact CR. But to get a CR in line with those assigned by WotC, you should use a test group similar to that used by WotC.

[afroakuma]

I'm not trying to assess a CR at even level; if I were, I would go with that route (and have).

I'm trying to assess a CR based on a lower-level party having to deal with the threat in question. If a fairly-optimized party three or four levels lower can plaster a monster to the walls, then either it has a glaring weakness that can be exploited that early or its CR needs to be adjusted down.

[ericgrau]

Here, have my core fighter builds:
SAB
THF
TWF

The stats you need are to the far right: AB (of first attack), HP, AC, avg. damage and number of attacks.

Holy cow, TWF rated well above THF. How come I never noticed that before? Alright, someone post a core THF build and I'll post one that trounces yours in one of two different ways . THF is so overrated. Found the bug thanks to BL. THF is better than TWF, like I originally remembered.

[Draz74]

You wanting this in a PM, or what?

Cuz I have a party that I'm working on 20-level builds for, which meets your specifications. (Well, they're not super-optimized, but they're pretty decent. What Fax and other people around here "Tier 2" classes.) Unfortunately the Equipment process is a beast, which has taken me months to quibble over ... but I could do a sort of rough draft of the equipment part and send you this party at any or all of the requested level range.

(One of the reasons I'm doing the whole project is likewise in order to test out monster CRs.)

[afroakuma]

Any level is fine. Here or in PM, either way.

[Blood_Lord]

Here, have my core fighter builds:
SAB
THF
TWF

The stats you need are to the far right: AB (of first attack), HP, AC, avg. damage and number of attacks.

Holy cow, TWF rated well above THF. How come I never noticed that before? Alright, someone post a core THF build and I'll post one that trounces yours in one of two different ways . THF is so overrated.

Well off the top of my head with a cursory glance, your "ratings" are just random evaluations of numbers that don't mean anything. And probably because you don't factor in any penalties for TWFing at all.

For example, both builds at level 1 have the same Str, the same BAB, and the same to hit, but one of them should be taking a minus 2 to his attacks. Of course if you don't factor that in, it looks better.

Also, I find it comical that they both have AC 34 at level 20, because it means that they actually wasted money on AC without doing anything, since even primarily caster CR 20s have hit that on a 2.

[afroakuma]

*sigh* I'll make this easy.

Any characters that you already have made, to a fairly reasonable level of optimization, give me the links if you'd like to contribute. I'll assemble parties of like-leveled characters myself.

[Blood_Lord]

Well, I can't because apparently your version of Reasonable level of optimization is not taking a pretty basic and in no way even remotely overpowered PrC like IotSFV, so all my Clerics that take actual good PrCs are out, all my Wizards that take PrCs on that level (MS/IotSFV/anything full castering with some decent benefits) are out.

I'm sure you'd object to a level 10 Rogue that has 6 attacks a round and always gets SA, and I don't think I've ever played with a fighter who wasn't capable of doing 300+ damage if you set him up.

[afroakuma]

Any discussion of unbalanced arcane PrCs has always brought up IotSV, to my remembering. Incantatrix likewise.

What "good" PrCs are you referring to?

I wouldn't object to such a rogue; I'm curious as to how he can do all of that at 10th level, and what guarantees him SA.

[ericgrau]

Well off the top of my head with a cursory glance, your "ratings" are just random evaluations of numbers that don't mean anything. And probably because you don't factor in any penalties for TWFing at all.

For example, both builds at level 1 have the same Str, the same BAB, and the same to hit, but one of them should be taking a minus 2 to his attacks. Of course if you don't factor that in, it looks better.

Also, I find it comical that they both have AC 34 at level 20, because it means that they actually wasted money on AC without doing anything, since even primarily caster CR 20s have hit that on a 2.

Ah, I thought I remembered THF being better than TWF. I checked back with the original program and THF did come out ahead. That image I uploaded 3 years ago has an error that I must not have caught. As for the rest, you made it up. You're free to post a core build w/o a shield if you want a duel and show something, otherwise I call nitpicking.

OP: Subtract 2 from the AB in the TWF build for full attacks. You can try to figure out the gear from the stuff to the left to double check for mistakes. At higher levels the extra attack comes from boots of speed. Otherwise the builds should be ready to use. The uploaded images are a couple versions behind my latest program. I'll upload more up to date ones when I get around to it / feel like it.

[Keld Denar]

So, wait...what source material are we allowed? I have an idea coming together for about 10th level, if you are interested. I'll put some work on it tonight. Already have the melee and wizard slots pretty well together. I'm thinking a Daring Outlaw or Bard + Cleric for the last 2. We'll see.

Oh, is Tome of Battle allowed?

[afroakuma]

It says in the rules - Complete series, PHB II, core rules, XPH.

I'd prefer no ToB, because I'm not familiar enough with it to run playtesting using it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Level 5 Party

Primary Attacker: Human Ranger1/PsiWar4
Feats: EWP: Spiked Chain, Track (Ranger Bonus), Combat Expertise (Human Bonus), Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Powers of note: Expansion, Force Screen, Psionic Lion's Charge

Tactics: He's a battlefield control damage dealer. Against humanoids, he's a serious threat. Against anything else, he's a moderate threat. Odds are he can smack something before it can get past him. He's not too powerful now, but he's gearing up for some of his more impressive combos later on

Primary Support Character: Human Cleric 5 (PhB II variant: Spontanious Domain: Healing)
Feats: Reach Spell, Chain Spell
Yes, he's a standard healbot for now. Nothing too powerful, and he can't use his metamagic feats right now anyways. For now.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue3
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse
Tactics: He uses Island of Blades stance to generate more flanking opportunities with the tank, and to qualify for Shadow Blade, which lets him use his short swords with his dex to damage rather than his strength, and Weapon Finesse, which lets him use his dex to attack, making Str a complete dump stat.

Primary Arcane Conjurer (PhP II variant, dump familiar for minor teleporting; banning Evocation and Enchantment) 5
Feats: Empower Spell, Eschew Materials
Other than Empowered Magic Missile, his feats aren't too impressive... yet.

Same party at level 10

Primary Attacker: Ranger1/PsiWar4/Slayer5
Feats: EWP: Spiked Chain, Track (Ranger Bonus), Combat Expertise (Human Bonus), Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper
Powers of note: Expansion, Force Screen, Psionic Lion's Charge

Tactics: Now he's getting a lot nastier, and has Pounce (and the PP to actually use it). Shock Trooper + Pounce is going to be his first-round attack, to tie up opponents so they can't go after the squishy guys.

Primary Support: Human Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 4
Feats: Reach Spell, Chain Spell, DMM Chain Spell, Extra Turning
Uses DMM Chain Spell to be able to multi-buff, with lots of extra turn attempts to fuel it. Can also be used to quickly and effectively drop things like Death Ward or Freedom of Movement on the whole party if opponent is likely to use tactics these are necessary to counter. Standard is DMM Chain GMW (3rd level slot) to buff the tank's weapon, the rogue's two weapons, and his own.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue5/Nightsong Enforcer2/Swordsage1
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Tactics: Now he's getting dangerous. If he can flank with the Tank, he can switch to Assassin's Stance now. Continuing with Nightsong Enforcer gives him some very useful party abilities, full attack, and more sneak attack. He also gets Pouncing Strike, which means he can make a full attack on the surprise round in Assassin's Stance, for lots of damage.

Arcanist: Primary Arcane Conjurer (PhP II variant, dump familiar for minor teleporting; banning Evocation and Enchantment) 5/whatever full spellcasting PrC5
Feats: Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Quicken Spell, silent spell

Tactics: Empowered Enervation is within his reach next level. Silent DimDoor is already within his grasp. Lots of battlefield control with Cloudkill, Solid Fog, and Stinking Cloud all being within his specialization. Sonic Orb is also in his repitoire, just in case something really does need more damage.

Same party at level 15

Primary Attacker: Ranger1/PsiWar4/Slayer 10
Chains Fall, Everyone Dies. He's got Leap Attack, in addition to the above. He can manifest Expansion as a swift action, or he can do it two size categories. He could easily be hitting for over 100 damage at this point. Even more important, he can trip just about anything he wants to, stable or not, which means free attacks from him and free sneak attacks from the rogue.

Primary Support: Cleric6/RSoP9
Now has DMM Reach spell as well. Everyone gets, at the beginning of the day, DMM Chain GMW and DMM Reach DMM Chain Magic Vestments, which will last all day long. He's got spontanious Heal spells, which he can DMM Chain if he wants to. This makes the party almost unkillable, because unless you One Hit KO someone, he's going to be back to full the next round, even against AE damage.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue5/Nightsong Enforcer2/Swordsage1/Nightsong Enforcer5
Now he picked up Craven, and Superior TWF, as well as Wands of Golembane/Gravebane. Unless it's an ooze, has Improved Uncanny Dodge, or something really wierd, it's in for a world of pain. He can get the Tank to flank for him, using Island of Blades if necessary, or Assassin's Stance if not. If the Tank is not available to flank it, odds are he can probably generate methods to sneak attack anyways, although he may need to get more creative (begging an Improved Invisibility from the Wizard, for example)

Arcanist: Wiz5/MotAO5/War Weaver5
What buffs the Cleric hasn't dropped on the party, he can. Plus Haste. Plus any given battlefield control spell of choice. Let's face it, he's all but Batman without the Gouda.

[afroakuma]

Very useful. Of course, I'll have to go assemble these myself... but quite a diverse selection.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use a party of 2 or 3 Druids and 1 or 2 Beguilers to fill all the necessary roles:

Skillmonkey/Support/Caster: Grey Elf, Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler+, Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 (32 points, level-up Int), Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), Arcane Disciple: Travel, Mindsight (LoM), nothing after that really matters but maybe (Greater) Spell Focus for Illusion or Enchantment, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and/or item creation or metamagic feats. Take (Greater) Shadow Evocation/Conjuration for Advanced Learning. Metamagic Rods could be useful, wands/scrolls of unavailable spells with UMD is preferred. Mithril Breastplate, Mithril Buckler, Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance, Headband of Int, Gloves of Dex, and a masterwork longbow with a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows. The Raiment of the Four set is good for any character to have.

Support/Caster/Attacker: Gnome (ideally a Race of Water Dragonborn of Bahamut), single-classed Druid. Str 6, Dex 12 (10), Con 18 (22), Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 8 (32 points, level-up Wis), Companion Spellbond (PH2), Natural Bond (CV), Natural Spell, nothing else matters but maybe Quicken Spell, Magic of the Land (RotW), and/or Augment Healing. Get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3), Natural Bond negates the "Level -3" penalty, give it Virulent Poison (SS), Ability Focus: Poison, and maybe Power Attack and Leap Attack.

Get Lesser Rods of Extend, a Monk's Belt, Periapt of Wis, Armbands of Might (animal companion), a few Lesser Strands of Prayer Beads, and eventually a standard Rod of Extend and two 6th level Pearls of Power, and a Standard Rod of Empower and two more 6th level Pearls of Power. Prepare Enrage Animal, Longstrider, Entangle, Creeping Cold, Barkskin, Splinterbolt, Greater Magic Fang, etc. Daily buffs would include (Extended) Longstrider, (E) Greater Magic Fang (+1 All), and once you have a few 6th level spells/day and some Pearls of Power put (E) Superior Resistance and (E) Energy Immunity x5 on yourself (shared), casting only three of those six each day since each lasts 48 hrs extended. Creeping Cold is best cast Extended via a Lesser Metamagic Rod, for 21d6 cold damage over 6 rounds at level 3.

Once you get the Rod of Empower and Pearls of Power you can cast Empowered Fire Seeds three times, creating 24 berry bombs which deals a total of (24d8+(24*CL))*1.5, averaging 162+(36*CL) damage, with twenty-four separate saves, each successful save taking off 1/48th the damage. At level 11 that deals an average of 558 damage in a 5' radius, just designate the command word as an eagle screech and drop the pouch full of berries from above in (Dire) Eagle form, or summon a small fire elemental to carry them into a group of opponents.

[Blood_Lord]

Ah, I thought I remembered THF being better than TWF. I checked back with the original program and THF did come out ahead. That image I uploaded 3 years ago has an error that I must not have caught. As for the rest, you made it up.

So for "the rest" that I made up, you mean the fact that they 34 AC? The fact that that can easily be hit? The fact that your "ratings" don't mean anything to anyone but you because we seriously have no idea what that is?

As for your duel obsession: I notice Barbarian levels, does that mean any Class? Only full BAB ones? What?

Cause if it's straight fighter only, I've got a build, depending on level, and if any full BAB, well then I'll have to compare that build to a Straight Barbarian. And of course, for added fun, my Core Rogues can be pretty ridic. Could probably beat any core +0 LA fighter type without a heavy shield of I picked fortification for this duel just to be a ****.

[Adumbration]

My submission for this - this was created specifically for a one-man party test, but it never came to be, so feel free to use it.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/....php?cid=16664

[sonofzeal]

My vote for Support: Kale

At ECL 10 (nice and average), Kale is a multiclassed Marshal/Bard/Divine.Mind who has achieved Sainthood (LA+2 acquired template, but not a race so it's okay by the rules), and is optimized for support. See, the problem I have with most support characters is that, by the time their buff routine is finished, the fight is practically over. Kale takes a different approach - rather than getting powerful standard-action buffs, he goes for swift, immediate, or passive buffs that apply to the whole team in the first round. On top of that, he's also got a beefed up Bardic Music routine for a seriously dangerous Inspire Courage. And he's also a respectable Diplomancer, though not really optimized for this roll.


Human Marshal 2 / Bard 1 / Divine Mind 5 / Saint 2
Important Feats: Word of Creation, Song of the Heart, Gift of Grace

Gear
Admiral's Bicorn
Regalia of the Hero
Extra Music

Buffs
Motivate Dexterity (+7 to dex-based skill checks and initiative; Swift, permanent, 60')

Resilient Troops (+1 saving throws; swift, permanent, 60')

Protective Aura (+4 AC vs evil, +4 saves vs evil, blocks any lvl3 or lower spell cast inward but not outward; free, permanent, 20')

Psychic Aura (+2 AC, DR 2/-; free, permanent, 15')

Admiral's Bicorn (+2 to all skills, saves and attack roll; no action, permanent, 100')

Bardic Music via Masterwork Trumpet (+2 atk / +3 damage, 3/day boosted to +3/+4 by Regalia, 1/day doubled to +4/+6 or +6/+8 by Word of Creation [damage quickly healed by Fast Healing from Saint]; standard, playing duration + 1 round, 100')

Regalia of the Hero
Badge (+2 on saves vs charm/fear OR +1 bardic music; immediate, 1 round, 60', 3/day)
Helm (+2 damage vs flanked enemies OR +1 Motivate Dexterity; swift, 10 rounds, 60', 3/day)
Horn (DR 5/-; standard, 5 rounds, 30', 2/day)
Set bonuses
- (+5 on a single attack, skill, or save; immediate, 100', 1/day)
- (grant immediate move action; standard, 100', 1/day)

[Draz74]

Here you go, ECL 12. Mine, you don't have to assemble. But I am using Tome of Battle -- apologies, I didn't know you didn't want it. At least it's just a Warblade, so the rules are free online. And feel free to ask any questions.

We have:

Kkekhif, Raptoran Warblade ("primary attacker")
Grivvle, Whisper Gnome Factotum ("skillmonkey")
Op-Tuun, Azurin Ardent ("primary supporter")
Zar-Lan, Human Dragonfire Adept ("caster")

This party is designed to work together, though, and they share roles around a lot. (For example, in some situations Grivvle is a better healer than Op-Tuun.)

Stat block for Kkekhif:

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Kkekhif
NG Medium Humanoid (raptoran)
Raptoran Warblade 12
- - - - - -
Str 21 (+5); Dex 18 (+4); Con 14 (+2); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +6; Fort +12; Ref +11; Will +6 (+8 with Bolstering Voice stance)
HP 102 (12d12+24); AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19; BAB +12/+7/+2; Speed 30, Fly 40 (good maneuverability)
Languages: Raptoran, Common, Auran
- - - - - -
Features: flight (including glide, dive); low-light vision; wing-aided movement (+10 Jump); +1 Climb, Spot; unerring direction.
Weapon aptitude; improved uncanny dodge; proficient with simple and martial melee weapons, shields, and light and medium armor.
Battle clarity (Int to Ref saves); Battle Ardor (Int to confirm crits); Battle Cunning (Int to damage vs. flat-footed or flanked); Battle Skill (Int to oppose trip, bull rush, etc.).
- - - - - -
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Flight, Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's Gambit
- - - - - -
Skills
9 Tumble (+17); 15 Jump (+32); 5 Balance (+11); 15 Diplomacy (+17); 15 Intimidate (+15); 3 Martial Lore (+4); 5 Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+6); 3 Knowledge (history)(+4); 0 Climb (+6); 0 Spot (+3); 0 Listen (+2)
Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Extreme Leap
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Melee Quarterstaff +18/+13/+8 (1d6+8)
TWF Quarterstaff +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6), Quarterstaff +16 (1d6+2)
Thrown Shortspear +16/+11/+6 (1d6+5), range increment 20 feet
- - - - - -
Equipment: Healing Belt of Giant Strength +4, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind, Ring of Communication with Deflection +1, Novice Crown of White Ravens, Amulet of Health +2, +1 Transmuting/+1 Defending Quarterstaff, Mithral Shirt +3, Heward's Handy Haversack, Steadfast Boots/Acrobat Boots, Piercer Cloak with Resistance +2, Vest of Natural Armor +1, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Lesser Rubicund Frenzy, shortspear [x5], Bracers of Dexterity +2, Lesser Revelation Crystal, Talisman of the Disk, general mundane equipment (45 gp)
- - - - - -
Initiator Level 12; Maneuvers Readied: 5
Stances Known: Bolstering Voice (WR 1), Punishing Stance (IH 1), Dancing Blade Form (IH 5)
Maneuvers Known:
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor (L2), Rapid Counter (L4), Moment of Alacrity (L6)
Iron Heart: Wall of Blades (L2), Iron Heart Surge (L3)
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap (L1), Death from Above (L4), Dancing Mongoose (L5), Pouncing Charge (L5)
White Raven: White Raven Tactics (L3)

Streamlining Tome of Battle Stuff:

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Stances are abilities that are constantly active, but only one at a time. A swift action is required to switch between them. Bolstering Voice gives +2 [morale] Will saves (+4 vs. fear effects); unlike the others, it affects the whole party. Punishing stance gives +1d6 melee damage, -2 AC. Dancing Blade Form gives +5-ft reach, but only on Kkekhif's turn (no AoOs).

For simplicity, you can assume that Kkekhif always readies the same combination of maneuvers:
Emerald Razor, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge.

Emerald Razor makes one attack a touch attack as a standard action. I recommend full Power Attack when using it.

Wall of Blades lets Kkekhif oppose any attack roll that hits her (including rays) with an attack roll of her own as an immediate action. If she succeeds, the attack misses.

Iron Heart Surge lets her end pretty much any debuff or battlefield control effect on her, as a standard action.

Dancing Mongoose gives her one extra attack with each end of her quarterstaff. It is a swift action to activate and only lasts for the one round when it is used (and only works if she full attacks).

Pouncing Charge is a full-round action that lets Kkekhif pounce. Big surprise.

Each of these five maneuvers is 1/encounter, but they can also be recharged. Recharging is a swift action, which must be followed by either a non-ToB-maneuver attack, or by taking a standard action to do nothing. (The former is, of course, drastically preferable, especially if it's part of a good old-fashioned full attack, no ToB required.)

The only other ToB thing you need to worry about is Stormguard Warrior. Here's the important highlights:

Any attack you don't think you'll hit (e.g. the final iterative of every full attack, in general), you can make a touch attack instead. If it succeeds, it deals no damage, but you do +5 damage to that target with every attack in the next round.

Any time you can make an AoO (including AoO's due to Robilar's Gambit), you can give up the opportunity. If you do, you gain +4 attack/damage against that target on the next round. If you give up multiple AoO's, this bonus stacks.

Oh yeah, one more tricky little thing. Whenever Kkekhif is in a stance other than Bolstering Voice, adjacent allies gain +2 [morale] to all saves. This would make Bolstering Voice pretty worthless, if the party stayed in a packed little group. Which they won't. (This bonus is the effect of the Ironheart Aura feat.)

If you want to know what the other maneuvers do, so you have more to keep track of , I'll explain them too.

Strategy:

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This build is all about being good at switching between full attacks and single attacks. That's ... the whole point of using a quarterstaff. (Besides style.) So if you can get a full attack, including by using Pouncing Charge, go for it. Turn on as many damage-boosting effects as you can first, like Punishing Stance.

If, however, you can't manage a full attack, just do some Power Attacking instead. Preferably with Emerald Razor.

Fly a lot. It's fun, and it's something the warrior types don't usually get to enjoy. And it makes it really easy to use the Piercer Cloak (MIC).

This build is a lot better at offense than defense. Don't worry if you're taking damage -- that just makes your Rubicund Frenzy kick in sooner. And Op-Tuun can heal you up after the battle. Fight a bit recklessly.

If you're fighting lots of weak enemies, Intimidate is great crowd control. One standard action to attempt to Demoralize them all. Make sure to combine this with Zar-Lan's Terrifying Roar invocation, so that foes will run away if they fail to either make their Will save or to resist the Intimidate.

Stat block for Grivvle:

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Grivvle
LG Small Humanoid (gnome)
Whisper Gnome Factotum 12
Deity: Ehlonna
- - - - - -
Str 12 (+1); Dex 20 (+5); Con 10 (+0); Int 23 (+6); Wis 12 (+1); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +13; Fort +5; Ref +14; Will +6
HP 57 (12d8); AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 18; BAB +9/+4; Speed 30
Languages: Gnome, Common, Draconic, Dwarf, Goblin
- - - - - -
Features: small size; low-light vision; darkvision 60 ft; weapon familiarity (gnome hooked hammer); attack +1 vs. kobolds, goblinoids; AC +4 [dodge] vs. giants; +4 Hide, Move Silently; +2 Listen, Spot; spell-like abilities (CL 1, 1/day: silence centered on self, ghost sound, mage hand, message).
Inspiration; trapfinding; arcane dilettante; brains over brawn; opportunistic piety (5/day, heal 30 hp); proficient with simple and martial weapons, shields, and light armor.
Cunning insight; cunning knowledge; cunning defense; cunning strike; cunning surge; cunning breach.
- - - - - -
Feats: Track, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Darkstalker, Woodland Archer
- - - - - -
Skills
15 Listen (+20); 15 Spot (+20); 12 Disable Device (+20); 12 Search (+18); 8 Hide (+27); 8 Move Silently (+28); 8 Tumble (+19); 7 Survival (+8)(+10 follow tracks); 5 Heal (+8); 5 Balance (+18); 2 Concentration (+2); 2 Knowledge (nature)(+10); 1 Appraise (+7); 1 Autohypnosis (+2); 1 Bluff (+1); 1 Climb (+10); 1 Craft (bowmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (poisonmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (trapmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (weaponsmithing)(+7); 1 Decipher Script (+7); 1 Disguise (+1); 1 Escape Artist (+11); 1 Forgery (+7); 1 Gather Information (+1); 1 Handle Animal (+1); 1 Intimidtate (+1); 1 Jump (+14); 1 Knowledge (geography)(+7); 1 Knowledge (local)(+7); 1 Knowledge (religion)(+7); 1 Open Lock (+12); 1 Perform (oratory)(+1); 1 Perform (wind instruments)(+3); 1 Profession (clerk)(+2); 1 Profession (sailor)(+2); 1 Ride (+12); 1 Sense Motive (+2); 1 Sleight of Hand (+12); 1 Use Rope (+12)
Skill Tricks: Healing Hands, Listen to This, Clarity of Vision, Spot the Weak Point, Point it Out
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Ranged Longbow +16/+11 (1d6+2+1d6 acid / x3), range increment 110 feet
Rapid Shot Longbow +14/+14/+9 (1d6+2+1d6 acid / x3), range increment 110 feet
Melee Kukri +11/+6 (1d3+1 / 18-20)
Melee Pick +11/+6 (1d4+1 / x4)
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Equipment: +1 Precise Bow of the Wintermoon, Ehlonna's Quiver, Darkwood Buckler +1, masterwork kukri, masterwork heavy war pick, Dwarvencraft Mithralmist Shirt, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Third Eye of Intelligence +4, Silkslick Belt/Belt of Healing with Strength +2, Vest of Resistance +1, Jumping Caltrops, Heward's Handy Haversack, Caduceus Bracers, Ring of the Darkhidden, Boots of Elvenkind/Boots of Agile Leaping, elvencraft darkwood composite longbow, Dark Lantern, Ring of Communication, Thorn Pouch, Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection, Lesser Crystal of Lifekeeping, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Least Crystal of Return, Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault, Rod of Viscid Globs, Rope of Stone, masterwork thieves' tools, climber's kit, healer's kit, 60 arrows (1 adamantine, 4 blunt, 20 cold iron, 5 silver, 10 swiftwing, 20 serpentstongue, 10 normal), Quaal's Anchor Token, antitoxin, wooden holy symbol [x2], dagger [x2], spell component pouch [x2], 100-ft silk rope, tindertwig [x2], lots more mundane equipment (about 100 gp)
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Inspiration Points: 6/encounter
Arcane Dilettante Spells/Day: 1 of up to 4th level, 4 of up to 3rd level; Arcane Caster Level 12
Typical SLAs prepared: Mass Resist Energy, Heroics, Haste, Fly, Bite of the Wererat

Strategy:

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Roleplaying-wise, this guy is a Ranger, not a Factotum. He gives Ehlonna the credit for anything cool he does, and has a typical Ranger grim-and-down-to-earth attitude.

You might think this guy's defense is crap. His Fort/Will saves and his HP sure aren't impressive. His AC is ok, especially against ranged attacks (+3 from Crystal of Arrow Deflection), which are the only kind he wants targeting him, being an archer and all. He can burn precious Inspiration to boost his saves or AC if he gets surprised by a nasty attack -- but his real defense is his Hide and Move Silently skills. If he's drawing too much attention from the baddies, it's time to Hide and let the baddies get distracted by the rest of the party instead. Mithralmist Shirt is a great way to suddenly have concealment, 7/day. Next level he'll be able to afford a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis and hide even while being observed.

That's all assuming you even need to fight anything. This guy prefers to sneak past baddies without them ever knowing he was there to fight. The best defense is oblivion. Walk around with a Dark Lantern lit, especially around races with Darkvision who will switch to using that, not bothering to get annoyed with the darkness, who won't be able to see you with your Ring of the Darkhidden. Leave the rest of the party behind if necessary, while you scout things out -- that's why you all have Rings of Communication.

Whenever he's not getting targeted, his strategy in battle is simple. Use battlefield control effects (from Thorn Pouch or Rod of Viscid Globs or Jumping Caltrops), or shoot things and do lots of damage (don't forget the cool Woodland Archer bonuses). Or cast Haste.

Heroics lasts for two hours. That's two hours per day that Grivvle can have Manyshot, or Improved Critical (longbow), or whatever other Fighter feat you feel like being creative with. Manyshot makes it a lot more worthwhile to use Cunning Surge for an extra standard action (uses 3 inspiration). Improved Critical makes it more worthwhile to use Cunning Insight to add INT to damage (or triple INT, on a critical!). Hopefully you can use most of your Inspiration in major battles for these effects, rather than spellcasting or defenses.

Oh yeah, that latter strategy is also the basis for some good assassination. Sneak up on a target when (s)he's helpless (they all have to sleep sometime!). Then, coup-de-grace with that Pick, and add quadruple INT to the damage using Cunning Insight.

Bite of the Wererat is in case you get cornered into melee. Mass Resist Energy is a whole-party saver. As far as spellcasting goes, don't forget about the racial Silence SLA, especially when facing enemy spellcasters.

In typical Factotum form, Grivvle has a 1 rank in a zillion skills. So he can be quite effective (or extremely effective, on Dex-based skills) at each of them, 1/day. That's plenty, in many cases.

Between the Heal skill (with Cunning Knowledge 1/day!), the Healing Hands skill trick, a Healing Belt, 150 hp/day total of Opportunistic Piety, and the ability to cure fatigue/sickened/ability damage/dazed via Caduceus Bracers, Grivvle is a pretty great secondary party healer.

Stat block for Op-Tuun:

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Op-Tuun Wyrrkur
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Azurin Ardent 12
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Str 18 (+4); Dex 10 (+0); Con 16 (+3); Int 10 (+0); Wis 23 (+6); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +2; Fort +13 (+14 vs. death/negative energy); Ref +6; Will +16
HP 80 (12d6+36); AC 26, touch 11, flat-footed 26; BAB +9/+4; Speed 20 (30 if psionically focused)
Languages: Common
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Features: 1 essentia (racial bonus); proficient with simple weapons, shields, and all armor.
Primary Mantle: Freedom (+10 speed while focused; expend focus to add +ML to resist or escape grapple).
Primary Mantle: Physical Power (free action, expend focus to add +2 to Str, Dex, or Con for 1 round).
Fate Mantle (1/day expend focus to add level to any d20 roll)
Magic Mantle (treat magic and psionics as identical; UMD/UPD is a class skill)
Mental Power Mantle (determine bonus PP as if Wisdom were 2 higher)
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Feats: Shape Soulmeld (lifebond vestment), Hidden Talent, Linked Power, Psionic Meditation, Psycarnum Infusion, Tap Mantle (life)
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Skills
15 Concentration (+18); 13 Use Psionic Device (+13); 1 Autohypnosis (+7); 1 Profession (philosopher)(+7); 0 Listen (+8); 0 Spot (+8)
Armor Check Penalty: -6
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Combat
Melee Sickle +14/+9 (1d6+5)
Ranged Crossbow +9/+4 (1d8 / 19-20), range increment 80 feet
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Equipment: (Lifebond Vestments soulmeld), Helm of Wisdom +4, Reach Gauntlets of Strength +4, Dispelling Cord with Constitution +2, Deep Crystal +1 Whirling Sickle with wand chamber, Darkwood Heavy Shield +2 with wand chamber, Full Plate +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Heward's Handy Haversack, Ring of Communication, Healing Belt, Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet/Amulet of Retributive Healing with Natural Armor +1, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind with Deflection +1, Greatreach Bracers, Restful Crystal, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Least Crystal of Lifekeeping, Hammersphere, Wand of Guidance, Wand of Lesser Vigor, Eternal Wand of Benign Transposition, Scroll of Neutralize Poison [x2], Scroll of Status, Scroll of Remove Paralysis, Power Stone of Psionic Divination, light crossbow, crossbow bolts [x20], explorer's outfit, dagger, general mundane equipment (about 150 gp).
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Manifester Level 12; PP/Day: 170 (126 base +42 Wis +2 feat)
Powers Known:
Level 1: Adrenaline Boost, Defensive Precognition, Dimension Hop, Metaphysical Weapon, Prevenom Weapon, Vigor
Level 2: Animal Affinity, Clairvoyant Sense, Hustle
Level 3: Dispel Psionics
Level 4: Psionic Fly
Level 5: Psionic Freedom of Movement, Psionic Teleport
Level 6: Psionic Restoration

Strategy:

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Try to start off each battle with Prevenom Weapon and Vigor already manifested. They both last 12 minutes, and will help you start things off much more effectively. Plus, Prevenom Weapon is only 1 PP. 140 HP is a lot more impressive than 80, and if you don't end up using all of your Temporary HP to soak damage, you can use them to heal your allies instead.

Basically, you're playing Op-Tuun right if you're using all of your swift/immediate actions, and wishing you had a lot more. Use them for:

- the Shield Block maneuver, courtesy of your Amulet (1/encounter, immediate action, add +8 to adjacent ally's AC vs. one attack)
- activating Reach Gauntlets or Greatreach Bracers
- Hustle, so you can move and still full attack
- Hustle, to regain psionic focus
- Adrenaline Boost, giving yourself +2 Str/Dex for one round
- KEY: Linked Power. Expend psionic focus and do any of the previous three options, and spend some extra PP, and a self-buff will appear on you one round later without spending any actions manifesting it.

Running out of Temporary HP? Get 55 more with Linked Vigor and 11 PP.
Stuck in a nasty battlefield control effect? Link FoM with 9 PP.
Defenses not good enough? Gain +4 AC/saves with a Linked Defensive Precognition and 10 PP.

In this way, you should almost never have to actually sacrifice standard or full-attack actions to buff yourself in-combat.

With the Ardent's PP progression, Op-Tuun doesn't have to be stingy with his psionic powers like a Psychic Warrior.

His round-to-round offense isn't impressive, though. You need to spice it up:
- Prevenom, as discussed earlier, is great against most living opponents
- Ring of the Diamond Mind lets you, 1/encounter as a standard action, replace normal melee damage with a Concentration check result
- 1/day, activate the Hammersphere as a standard action and let it act as a 5th party member for 7 rounds
- 3/day, hit up to 48 squares of monsters with Op-Tuun's attack! Use Greatreach Bracers and then the Whirling ability of his sickle.

Still, Op-Tuun is probably the least impressive of these characters in a fight. Hopefully he makes up for it outside of combat:

- Teleporting!
- Making everyone's weapons +3 for the day every morning (9 PP each; not included in stat blocks)
- spamming Clairvoyant Sense for great information gathering
- slow but incredibly efficient healing

The latter is a very specific combo: Vigor (2 or 2.2 PP) to soak up the self-damage; expend psionic focus to activate Psycarnum Infusion; heal ally (20 HP and deal 10 damage to self, or 21 HP and deal 11 damage to self); concentrate to regain psionic focus. Wash, rinse, and repeat -- though it only works once on each ally each hour. Instead of the 15-minute work day, this group might take a lot of 1-hour breaks in between battles. (Or I guess they could use their Wands of Lesser Vigor like everyone else.)

Stat block for Zar-Lan:

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Zar-Lan Wyrrkur
CG Medium Humanoid (human, dragonblood)
Human Dragonfire Adept 12
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Str 10 (+0); Dex 12 (+1); Con 23 (+6); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 18 (+4)
Init +3; Fort +16; Ref +7; Will +10
HP 130 (12d8+73); AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21; BAB +6/+1; Speed 30, Fly 30 (good maneuverability)
Languages: Common, Draconic
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Features: invocations; breath weapon at will; scales +3; dragonkin (+4 Diplomacy vs. dragons, resist frightful presence); DR 2/magic; proficient with simple weapons.
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Feats: Dragontouched, Entangling Exhalation, Ability Focus (breath weapon), Draconic Aura (senses)(gives whole party +2 Spot/Listen/initiative), Extra Invocation [x3]
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Skills
15 Concentration (+21); 15 Bluff (+28); 15 Sense Motive (+15); 15 Spellcraft (+18); 6 Knowledge (arcana)(+13); 5 Knowledge (the planes)(+12); 10 Use Magic Device (+17); 5 Diplomacy (+22); 0 Intimidate (+15); 0 Listen (+3); 0 Spot (+3)
Skill Tricks: Social Recovery, Collector of Stories
Armor Check Penalty: 0
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Combat
Melee Longspear +7/+2 (1d8+1+1d4 sonic+1 fire / x3), 10-ft reach
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Equipment: Healing Belt/Dragon Spirit Cincture with +4 Constitution, +1 Screaming Longspear with wand chamber, Least Crystal of Fire Assault, Cloak of Elemental Protection with Charisma +4, Shiftweave with Resistance +2, Twilight +1 Mithral Shirt, Dwarvencraft Mithral Buckler +2, Circlet of Persuasion/Hat of Disguise, Steadfast Boots, Heward's Handy Haversack, Ring of Communication, wand bracer, Tome of Worldly Memory, Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection, Eternal Wand of Heroics, Eternal Wand of Silent Image, Eternal Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Eternal Wand of Mending, Wand of Protection from Evil, Wand of Lesser Vigor, everburning torch, courtier's outfit with jewelry, disguise kit, mundane equipment (120 gp)
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Breath Weapon: 60-foot line or 30-foot cone; 7d6 fire damage (Ref DC 25 half).
Breath Effects:
Lightning Breath: 60-foot line; 7d6 electricity damage (Ref DC 24 half).
Slow Breath: 30-foot cone; targets slowed (as spell) for 2 rounds (Fort DC 24 for half duration).
Thunder Breath: 30-foot cone; 7d6 sonic damage (Fort DC 25 half).
Enduring Breath: 60-foot line or 30-foot cone; 7d6 fire damage (Ref DC 25 half); half of damage repeats 1 round later.
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Arcane Spell Failure 0%; Invocation Caster Level 12
Invocations Known:
Least: Aquatic Adaptation, Beguiling Influence, Draconic Knowledge, Endure Exposure, Magic Insight
Lesser: Draconic Flight, Voracious Dispelling
Greater: Terrifying Roar (Will DC 19 partial)

Strategy:

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Um, probably the simplest and most effective of the four.

Blast stuff with Enduring Breath every odd-numbered round, and Slow Breath every even-numbered round.

Mix in Thunder Breath if some foes might be fire-resistant (or, Bahamut forbit, have Evasion!). Mix in Terrifying Roar if you think Will is your foes' weakest save, or if you're trying to combo with Kkekhif's Intimidate, or if you are in danger of personally getting attacked.

Mix in Entangling Exhalation with the first Enduring/Thunder breath of the combat, plus anytime you feel like too many opponents have gotten un-entangled. Don't worry about doing reduced damage -- damage is the warblade's and archer's job.

Zar-Lan protects her allies from all her breath weapons every morning, of course, using Endure Exposure. No worries about friendly fire.

24-hour flight. Awesomely low-stress. AC improves by +3 vs. ranged attacks. Stay away from melee attacks -- but don't be afraid to attract attention; you've got more HP than anyone else in the party.

Spice up the Warblade or Ardent 2/day for half an hour with a Heroics wand. Be creative -- but not TOO creative -- about what feat to give them.

Out of combat, make yourself terribly useful with illusion wands, great Knowledges (you have +7 to all unlisted Knowledge checks), and ridiculously good social skills, especially Bluff. Lie all the time, just because you can get away with it.

The whole party has items to make them functional if they have to venture underwater a bit, but Zar-Lan thrives there. She'll go swimming as often as she can get away with -- maybe breathe on enemies from underwater to drive them bonkers.

Use her spear only for AoO's, of course -- or with Steadfast Boots for a free double-damage attack anytime someone charges her. Voracious Dispelling isn't so useful at this level, with a caster level of only 10; it'll get traded out next level in favor of Voidsense.

... And since I've now explained all of the other Invocations, I'll also brag about constant Detect Magic-with-Identify-built-in. w00t.

At this point, I suppose comments from anyone about these builds are welcome.

[Epic_Wizard]

I just wish to point out that the further one diverges from the core monsters the more powerful monsters become for their CR. Therefore what is being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Whether a fighter can deal 300 damage in a round or not is fairly irrelevant since that's more than a little over optimized.


To the uber-optimizers: If all else fails take a build that is meant for flavor that you tweaked a bit but not into the realm of "**** I broke a mountain"

[Keld Denar]

To the uber-optimizers: If all else fails take a build that is meant for flavor that you tweaked a bit but not into the realm of "**** I broke a mountain"

All builds are built for flavor. No reason not to be effective though. Granted, "breaking the mountain" would be bad, but no point in intentionally gimping yourself in the name of flavor. Don't fall for Stormwind's Fallacy, it is, as they say on the internet, a trap.

[ericgrau]

So for "the rest" that I made up, you mean the fact that they 34 AC? The fact that that can easily be hit? The fact that your "ratings" don't mean anything to anyone but you because we seriously have no idea what that is?

As for your duel obsession: I notice Barbarian levels, does that mean any Class? Only full BAB ones? What?

Cause if it's straight fighter only, I've got a build, depending on level, and if any full BAB, well then I'll have to compare that build to a Straight Barbarian. And of course, for added fun, my Core Rogues can be pretty ridic. Could probably beat any core +0 LA fighter type without a heavy shield of I picked fortification for this duel just to be a ****.

Just pick a martial one and post; a barbarian or fighter it seems. We can do a single class if you prefer, though it shouldn't matter. FWIW I'll probably have an adamantine weapon and blind fight, though I'd prefer if we avoided silly ways of winning altogether and had a straight fight. Other than that no shield for you. PHB races, core only, standard WBL. No buffing round. Pick a level. There's too much crazy stuff that can come up at level 20, so how about 5, 10 or 15? Preferably start a new thread and PM me a link to it. Unless the OP wants to use these builds?

[afroakuma]

Draz: How you stuck me with four classes I don't know, not to mention two systems I don't know, is flatly beyond me.

Well, your notes will help.

First combat: Draz's party vs. 2 Orange Slaadi

[Draz74]

Heh. Good, I'm making you learn more about the game.

I assume Incarnum is the other system you don't know? (It better not be psionics!) Yeah, I had to learn about it just to make this character.

I thought learning about the Factotum was required on this Forum, though. The Giant having helped write Dungeonscape, and all.

[afroakuma]

I don't own a copy.

And yes, incarnum was the other one. Took a moment to register that you'd used Complete Psionic, though. Now I have to go find it.

*sigh* this is gonna be a messy playtest.

I'll post the results when the battle ends.