[3.5]Would this be too cruel/evil to run on a group of players?

[newbDM]

So a little while back someone on this board posted a great joke to pull on your PCs. How he described it was as follows:

1. After PCs finish a dungeon at the very end they see their prize in the last room of the complex. Three treasure chests. One on the right, one on the left, and one in the middle.
2. In one of the chests a PCs finds a magical sword.
3. In another of the chests the PCs find a big rock.
4. In the third chest the PCs find some gold.
5. If one of the PCs pick up the rock, they discover that the hand (or hands) that grabbed the rock can not let go of it.
6. If another PC grabs it, then it is stuck as well.
7. The trick is that you need to use the sword to break the rock.

This has been on my mind on-and-off for at least a month (I am certain more). I had some free time today, so I finally decided to start writing up a dungeon for this.

I just spent the last hour and some trying to sketch the following image for my own take on this puzzle:

Spoiler

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Before I go on, please let me explain two important point about my homebrewed multiverse which I feel might be important to this. It is both low-magic, and low-wealth. Which means obtaining a magic item is a big deal (think the cliche finding a magic sword can make you a king), and wealth is not as easy to obtain. This also means finding someone/something to remove a curse is not as easy as simply entering any town and hiring a cleric.


So here is the difference I am thinking of making to the above plot:

1. There is a bit of writing engraved into the bottom of the rock, which seems to have been sanded a small bit (not noticeable at all when it's in the chest or lying on the ground). If you can not read my poor attempt of depicting it in the above image it says "Be Free, but lose thy priz".
2. In how I want to run it, the blade of the sword will shatter along with the rock.
3. However, if the PCs decide to keep the sword, they have at least a +4 sowrd in their possession. In my multiverse, they essentially have the equivalent of an artifact in a the average DM's campaign.
4. In addition, I plan to make this dungeon not very difficult, so this will be the equivalent of an artifact but at a fraction of the effort and work that one would expect.
5. The other chest will be filled with gold, along with a smattering of platinum and silver.

So, what do the experienced DMs here think about this?


p.s.
I also do not want to waste the image, but I guess that is not a big issue.

[Alleine]

Personally? I would not be very happy with this, but maybe your players would be more open to it. Some people would feel very cheated to have to lose their totally awesome +4 sword that they just got in order to be free of some crappy trap rock.

It really depends on your players. Are they the kinds of people who covet all their treasure? Or would they be willing to give up the sword so that whoever gets stuck to the rock can be freed?

[TheCountAlucard]

What word?

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh!

[Bassetking]

It's a 1st ed. Gygaxian Jerk Move.

Dun' do it.

We had something like this happen in my group once.

Spoiler

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The rock actually had a pictogram, showing the sword smashing the rock on its underside, once it had been picked up.


I had my friend take my arm off at the wrist, then bought a regeneration back in town.

[Alleine]

Heck, amputating might not be a bad idea. They did just get that shiny new Sword of Amputation as it will soon be dubbed.

[sonofzeal]

I say, totally do it! I was recently in a similar situation, and it ended up working out really well. What makes it good is that you're choosing between an advantage PLUS a disadvantage, or coming up neutral. That sort of call is tough to make IC and OOC, but worst-case-scenario isn't all that bad either way.

Gygax would have had the rock eat your arm AND break the sword.

[newbDM]

LoL.

I love how you not only found a loophole in my scheme in under an hour, but found a way for PCs to actually abuse this curse in about 25 (at around 2:00am level of members).

I knew there was a reason I loved these forums.

What word?

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh!

LoL. I love this!

I like it when DM reword players for smart thinking, and I wish to do the same. I think I will make it so the first hand to touch the rock gets curse, so this will work instead of the PC getting stuck to a corpse's skull after he kills his first victim. And I would so let the Weapon Proficiency: (rock), and other feats like Improved Critical: (Rock) if a player was creative enough to come up with it.


Again, if players are imaginative enough to come up with something like amputation to keep their cake and eat it too, then I am all for rewarding them by letting them get away with it.

It's a 1st ed. Gygaxian Jerk Move.

Dun' do it.

We had something like this happen in my group once.

Spoiler

Show

The rock actually had a pictogram, showing the sword smashing the rock on its underside, once it had been picked up.


I had my friend take my arm off at the wrist, then bought a regeneration back in town.

Really? Gygax himself came up with this?!

And I feel much less original now. I thought I had something with the engraving at the bottom.



Also, I do not have a group to DM at the moment. I just like making new material in my free time for fun, and in the hope of getting to use it some day.


And I corrected the spelling mistake. Yeah, sorry, I meant "sword".

[Epic_Wizard]

Yeah be careful about handing players stuff like this. If they choose not to take the rock or do something else to it first and figure it out then you've just handed them a +4 sword. Then there is the whole idea of them finding alternate means of removing the rock.

I'm not of any opinion one way or another but I would suggest being cautious...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, even in a super-low-magic game, a +4 weapon isn't exactly going to allow just anyone to defeat everything they encounter. In a setting like that, convincing people you have such a weapon is probably more important than actually having it. A +1 Flaming weapon is far less powerful mechanically but far more impressive aesthetically and therefore could gain a character more influence among NPCs than a more powerful yet bland +4 weapon. Just having the weapon is no guarantee of becoming king by your own hand, yet convincing people you have a similarly powerful means, regardless of whether or not you actually do, will probably bring you more success.

Depending on the size of the rock, I'd use it to parry attacks and claim that as long as I hold it, I cannot be killed. Any foes who believed it would scour the setting for a way of removing the rock, thinking that it would mean the character's defeat, rather than just disregarding the claim and stabbing him. The rock is the true means of becoming king by one's own hand, not the +4 sword.

[newbDM]

I say, totally do it! I was recently in a similar situation, and it ended up working out really well. What makes it good is that you're choosing between an advantage PLUS a disadvantage, or coming up neutral. That sort of call is tough to make IC and OOC, but worst-case-scenario isn't all that bad either way.

I see. Thanks for the honest opinion.

Also, I decided to fill the third chest with treasure so they would at least get something. Remember, low-wealth.

Gygax would have had the rock eat your arm AND break the sword.

Really?

Was he a vicious DM?

Well, we was THE FIRST DM, so I guess he was everything, like the Io of D&D.

[Frosty]

The players can just cast Regenerate and then amputate an arm.

[newbDM]

Yeah be careful about handing players stuff like this. If they choose not to take the rock or do something else to it first and figure it out then you've just handed them a +4 sword. Then there is the whole idea of them finding alternate means of removing the rock.

I'm not of any opinion one way or another but I would suggest being cautious...

Very good point. What if I make it so there is a magical barrier or something around the chest with the sword, and it can not be opened until a pressure sensor under the rock (or magical spell monitoring the rock) is let loose once the rock is picked up?

[newbDM]

First of all, even in a super-low-magic game, a +4 weapon isn't exactly going to allow just anyone to defeat everything they encounter. In a setting like that, convincing people you have such a weapon is probably more important than actually having it. A +1 Flaming weapon is far less powerful mechanically but far more impressive aesthetically and therefore could gain a character more influence among NPCs than a more powerful yet bland +4 weapon. Just having the weapon is no guarantee of becoming king by your own hand, yet convincing people you have a similarly powerful means, regardless of whether or not you actually do, will probably bring you more success.

Depending on the size of the rock, I'd use it to parry attacks and claim that as long as I hold it, I cannot be killed. Any foes who believed it would scour the setting for a way of removing the rock, thinking that it would mean the character's defeat, rather than just disregarding the claim and stabbing him. The rock is the true means of becoming king by one's own hand, not the +4 sword.

Very interesting point.

I believe I did something similar, by having an item belonging to the "Big Boss" of an orc mega tribe (practically of every orc on the continent) be a flaming club (not truly stated yet, but I was thinking of just making it flaming). And that club is a very feared item. And now I guess I also made it a status symbol?

I guess I kinda of thought of this on some subconscious level, but now I realize it.

However, considering that only kings/rulers/paladin (big things in my multiverse)/and BBEG would have powerful items, does that at least make a +4 sword (with some of the +s in special abilities) somewhat powerful?

The players can just cast Regenerate and then amputate an arm.

Again, low-magic. I have it so only the biggest of monasteries, in Metropolis level settlements have a single cleric at their head. Adepts start at temples in Large Town sized settlements.

[pingcode20]

Quick question: What happens if the PCs are wearing gloves? Wouldn't that defeat the entire curse?

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On one hand, you're giving them a chance to get a cool sword.

On the other hand, you're putting in a cruel trap to try and force them to give up the sword again.

On the gripping hand, if it comes off poorly, it ends up looking like a gigantic jerk move. It's really something that only has the potential make your players angry at you, and less willing to tolerate any other perceived slights.

[Keld Denar]

You know what would be even more funny? This came to me in a lightning bolt when I started reading your post, and I was almost disappointed when it came to it.

Swap out the gold with a scroll...any scroll, doesn't matter, just that its a scroll. Make it fireball, just for grins and giggles.

Now...you have a sword, scroll, and a rock.

First player picks up the sword and is stuck to it

2nd player picks up the scroll, and is likewise stuck to it.

3rd player picks up the rock, again with the stuck, but then something else happens.

Powerful enchantment magic overcomes all three, the holder of the sword feels compulsed (no save) to attack the wielder of the scroll, while the wielder of the scroll needs to attack the wielder of the rock, and the wielder of the rock tries to attack the wielder of the sword. Rest of party tries to keep them from killing each other. Play continues until one party member drops another, or someone at the table figures out what exactly is going on.

Rock beats sword (sisors)
Sword beats paper (scroll)
Paper beats rock.

lulz for all!

[Epic_Wizard]

You know what would be even more funny? This came to me in a lightning bolt when I started reading your post, and I was almost disappointed when it came to it.

Swap out the gold with a scroll...any scroll, doesn't matter, just that its a scroll. Make it fireball, just for grins and giggles.

Now...you have a sword, scroll, and a rock.

First player picks up the sword and is stuck to it

2nd player picks up the scroll, and is likewise stuck to it.

3rd player picks up the rock, again with the stuck, but then something else happens.

Powerful enchantment magic overcomes all three, the holder of the sword feels compulsed (no save) to attack the wielder of the scroll, while the wielder of the scroll needs to attack the wielder of the rock, and the wielder of the rock tries to attack the wielder of the sword. Rest of party tries to keep them from killing each other. Play continues until one party member drops another, or someone at the table figures out what exactly is going on.

Rock beats sword (sisors)
Sword beats paper (scroll)
Paper beats rock.

lulz for all!

Nah because if the wrong person picks up the wrong item then this could be very nasty very fast. For maximum fun just have them chase each other around trying to deal non-lethal damage. (or make the sword blunt and deal non-lethal)

Though, as a cruel and shameless joke on the players I love it

[ondonaflash]

I actually really like this idea for a trap, and see, you are MUCH kinder than I am. I am going to place a sword in a magic circle (Greater Planar Binding, but unless the PCs have a high spellcraft check they won't know that, and since we are ATM traveling w/o mage... ) anyways this sword is a TREASURE. It is hovering in the air in front of them, emitting a soft blue glow. Runes trace themselves along the blade and the guard is made of shining mithral. The guard is wrapped with soft ewe's leather and a diamond sets itself in the pommel.

But woe betide the foolish mortal who crosses the boundary of that circle, for it is actually a Pit Fiend, disguising itself as a sword to tempt the greedy and foolish into crossing the line and unleashing it.

Given that i have a level five party it should be pretty good. The difference being that I have a party of experienced D&D players who should no better than to grab an unguarded weapon. One of them is also a paladin and thus can detect evil.

Adventuring Rule #1!: There is no such thing as free treasure!

[Epic_Wizard]

Adventuring rule #2: When presented with the opportunity for low cost treasure one should grab it and run like hell before the DM notices.

Or in the case of very large and expensive pieces of the flavor text one should at least have a damn good plan to deal with what happens when you tell the DM you are making off with 100,000 gp worth of stuff at level 5...

[Ganurath]

If I were in their shoes, I'd give up the gauntlet/glove in favor of the sword any day.

[Ninetail]

Again, low-magic. I have it so only the biggest of monasteries, in Metropolis level settlements have a single cleric at their head. Adepts start at temples in Large Town sized settlements.

And yet you have a magic sword and a magic cursed rock in the same place, and you're proposing to protect the magic sword with a magic barrier that only disappears if the magic rock's magic is activated.

That's a pretty good concentration of magic for a low-magic setting. Not saying it's impossible, mind you, but I'd look askance at it.

Who put all of this there, and why?

[Altima]

Make the key to the chest with gold to be inside the rock.

And just for fun, you could have the rock have a 'core' of precious metal inside the rock. You could make it enough for say an adamantine dagger (which isn't too terribly powerful, but incredibly useful as a digging implement being able to ignore hardness and all).

You could also curse the sword, too. Such as if they keep it, it'll do something. Minor curses include the sword drooling blood. Or perhaps a major curse such as the sword makes its wielder more and more paranoid about her fellows taking her sword.

[KKL]

Going to throw my personal opinion here. This "trap" is about on the same level of Pointless DM dickery (TM) as "Your Paladin falls for [insert contrived and ultimately stupid bs here]."

[newbDM]

I just finished trying to stat the sword if anyone is interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...96#post5633996


Please let me know what you think! I am still very new to making magic items/artifacts.

[newbDM]

And yet you have a magic sword and a magic cursed rock in the same place, and you're proposing to protect the magic sword with a magic barrier that only disappears if the magic rock's magic is activated.

That's a pretty good concentration of magic for a low-magic setting. Not saying it's impossible, mind you, but I'd look askance at it.

Who put all of this there, and why?

Well, one of my first players/PCs became a noble and got five square miles of land. On it happened to be some human ruins.

Sadly, the game ended before they finished exploring the area, but if they had they would have discovered that some of those ruins were of a religious sect to one the first sets of human deities way back on that world (the Olympian Pantheon).

I am currently mapping out the entire area in Fractal Mapper for future campaigns and/or groups, fast forwarding 11 years in my cosmology. I am even taking sprites taken from video games and such to do a better job. This sword is in a hidden "secret" dungeon they can unlock. Read the link I posted to see who it belonged to to understand it's history.


Anyway, the reason the rock is there, and why magic tended to happen around said old PC (now an NPC in my homebrewed sandbox setting) is that he managed to annoy an overdeity. And not just any over deity, he managed to get the loving attention of Death. Yup, and that allowed me to have some fun during the adventure, since every once-in-a-way either undead, or something unexpected came at the party (or more specifically said PC), partly because of the PC insulting DEATH, and partly because the PC turned into a vampire by STD method so Death wanted to "reclaim" him (hey, he caused all this, not me!)......

So in truth only the sword and the ancient paladn's (the NPC who's sword it was) other treasure (the coinage) should have been there, but I am planning that along with the occasional corpse of a monster/big animal that dies near by his settlement (which is hamlet size due to good roe-playing by the PC) spontaneously raising and going towards his "manor", there will be freaky paranormal stuff going on, and things that just shouldn't make sense happening. Hence why I am mapping it in so much detail, and planting so many easter eggs in the map. Death in my cosmology enjoys his job, which means he gets as much of a kick making the PC/NPC paranoid batty as actually "reclaiming him" (plus the player decided during the game to use his right as a noble to bend/change the kingdom's rules somewhat in his territory to farm HEMP, so I am making it so over the 11 years he is getting ever more paranoid), so he usually makes things a somewhat fair fight. This means that it could be risky spending too much time in that hamlet for players, but the payoffs are potentially bigger.

[valadil]

Seems reasonable to me. As long as the third chest has remaining loot the players aren't really getting cheated. That and the +4 sword is just going to appear as a magic sword. They won't have identified it yet at the point they'll be losing it.

[Irreverent Fool]

I must disagree with out colleagues above who complain about such a trap being unfair, pointless, and a tool of a "****" DM.

Your trap does herald back to the old days of arbitrary punishment and perhaps needs some reasoning to be there. "A wizard did it" is always a fine answer in D&D however.

What do I like about your situation? It is INTERESTING and OBVIOUSLY A TRAP. If the PCs do not realize that 3 treasure chests at the bottom of a dungeon, untouched by the creatures inhabiting said dungeon, are a trap, well, they get what's coming to them.

1st edition D&D characters were either incredibly cautious/paranoid or dead. Dead dead dead. Adventurers are supposed to die. A lot. The difference with 3rd edition is that we are forced to put so much work into a character that we dread creating another one.

In 3rd edition, if the shocktrooper/leap-attack/power-attack/greatsword fighter dies, you usually don't create the same build, so you've got to spend hours putting another one together unless you happen to have one on hand.

In 1st ed, if Yorgath the Mighty, slayer of the Seven Fiends of Drae'Gannor and Subduer of the Red Wyrm of the Misty Coast who had his shield hand bitten off by a ravenous were-beast and his left eye gouged out by a swarm of harpies and who has recently managed to make it all the way to 7th level as a Fighting Man happens to fall in a Gygax pit and get his brain sucked out by betentacled wraithfish in 1d4-1 rounds and rolls a 1 on the d4, he can be replaced quickly by another treasure-seeker just by looking on the table for the stats of the appropriate level.

Shoot, I think the spectacular ways bad things happen to adventurers is part of the game. There's a reason people choose to remain commoners. Your trap doesn't even KILL anyone.

I do agree with some of the above posters that the sword needs to be obviously magical, though flaming may not make sense for the interaction you want with the rock. Glowing runes are always good.

obnoxious
sig

[chiasaur11]

What word?

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh!

Or a chainsaw hand.

Or even a skull crushing mechanical hand.

All sorts of things better than a standard hand.

[lilhowie624]

in a short few words i would say... no

only because as playing a pc back in the olde days 1ed and 2ed i remember traps such as

the gem of magic jar
the sphere of annilation in the statues mouth
ring of imprisonment
give the skull his limbs and its a demi lich
the 50ft spike pit with the ceiling that falls on you

as some one stated above if your and adventurer you need a degree of paranoia. if you dont expect to die at least everytime you head out than its just a cake walk to 20.

you really wanna be devious hit them where it hurts. and this is one that can hurt.

npc cursed bleeding -1hp per day cumulative(1 2 3 4 ect) until curse lifted
once lifted hp is restored regularly
the curse is spread on contact with any living thing. to include melee attacks and touch spells such as cure light wounds and shocking grasp
you cannot remove your own curse by conventional means
no save curse dc 20

this one plauged my party for about 3 weeks wed cure it and remove it but some one always caugt it again.

there is a way to stop it.

[Kesnit]

And what happens when the Fighter picks up the rock, leaving someone who may not be proficient in swords to free them? Sure, there could be someone else with proficiency, but there may not be. I'm envisionining the low-STR Wizard either hacking the Fighter's arm off, or shattering the sword on the Fighter's armor and leaving the stone still attached.

[Ironlich]

Idunno, just throwing the trap in their face like that feels cruel, but if you give them some fair chance to avoid it, go for it.