SWSE Jedi optimization

[Darth Stabber]

Creating a 3rd lvl character for SWSE, I'm not sure what race I want, I know that I want to be a Lightsaber focused Jedi, but beyond that I just don't know. For race I am currently considering Kel Dor for the stat bumps (+2 dex, +2 wis, -2 con), but I really don't like the fact that they have to have breathing equipment full time on most planets and environments.

Current thought for build

Kel Dor Jedi 3

(30 point stat buy)
Str 12
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 10
Talents: block, deflect
Feats: Force Training, Weapon finesse, Rapid Strike
Trained Skills: Use the Force, Initiative, Perception, and Endurance
Force Powers: Battle strike, Force Disarm, Force Push, Mind Trick

Want to focus on defence as time goes buy, but i need a firm base in offense to start with. Thoughts, suggestions, help, optimizations????

[Mushroom Ninja]

What books do you have access to?

[Talya]

The Kel Dor can make excellent dex-focused jedi, especially on a medium or lower point buy. I have a hard time justifying the loss of a trained skill and feat, but I can see why someone would use a kel dor.

(Besides, Plo Koon was cool.)

I don't think having your charisma that low is really viable, though. I can't see any jedi build not pumping it up to at least 14 (after which abilities get expensive.) All your use the force rolls key off of charisma. Including the block and deflect talents you've already taken.

Base stats of str 10, dex 14, con 12, int 14, wis 14, cha 14
would be better (netting you str 10, dex 16, con 10, int 14, wis 16, cha 14 after racial modifiers). With you taking finesse, you're likely taking ataru as well, there's no point to pumping strength up those other two points, it eventually becomes completely dormant (i'd be tempted to start it at 8, if you can stand the -1 to damage for a few levels.)

Having acrobatics trained is important, too, for defensive purposes. Replace endurance.

Take Skill Focus (Use the Force) as soon as possible. Melee Defense is also a good feat. (Doubly so if you have acrobatics trained, as it greatly increases the effectiveness of fighting defensively - and using melee defense is considered fighting defensively.)

Look into qualifying for Juyo by Jedi Knight PRC level 3 if you want to be a lightsaber duellist supreme. Obviously Ataru is in the plans. Soresu is also a beautiful talent and you are planning to rely on block/deflect, so it's really worth it.

[Darth Stabber]

I thought that Use the Force was Wisdom? The only other book that I have is KOTOR, which is the time frame that I am playing in. I am trying to decide whether I want Scum and Villainy or The Force Unleashed.

The reason that I chose Kel Dor over human was that I thought the racial modifiers and lowlight vision were worth it, but human might be better (if UTF is Cha it most certainly is).
So as human
Human Jedi3
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14
Talents: Block, Deflect.
Feats: Weapon finesse, Skill focus(UTF), Force Training, Rapid Strike.
Skills: UTF, Acrobatics, Initiative, Perception.
Force Powers: Battle Strike, Force Disarm, Mind Trick.

also Is Shii-cho worth it when it becomes available? It seems like that Would take alot of shots to bring the check low enough to be really scary, But It only does anything if i am affected by multiple attacks in a turn.

[Talya]

I thought that Use the Force was Wisdom? The only other book that I have is KOTOR, which is the time frame that I am playing in. I am trying to decide whether I want Scum and Villainy or The Force Unleashed.

The reason that I chose Kel Dor over human was that I thought the racial modifiers and lowlight vision were worth it, but human might be better (if UTF is Cha it most certainly is).
So as human
Human Jedi3
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14
Talents: Block, Deflect.
Feats: Weapon finesse, Skill focus(UTF), Force Training, Rapid Strike.
Skills: UTF, Acrobatics, Initiative, Perception.
Force Powers: Battle Strike, Force Disarm, Mind Trick.

also Is Shii-cho worth it when it becomes available? It seems like that Would take alot of shots to bring the check low enough to be really scary, But It only does anything if i am affected by multiple attacks in a turn.

For a jedi character, you have the only books you really need. TFU has more than SaV, but i was utterly unimpressed by what TFU had to add to my character, aside from Maris Brood's Guard Shoto (which is mechanically awesome, btw.)

Anyway, Jedi do need wisdom as well (it affects how many force powers you get per force training feat), so Kel Dor is a pretty good choice just the same. But Charisma is the ability that Use the Force keys off of.

A few things about your human build:
The stats are very balanced. If your strength is 12, and your dex is 14, don't bother with weapon finesse or ataru. A +1 difference is not worth it. Heck, it's barely worth it for your Kel Dor build--its strength is too high, and the +2 difference is barely worth mentioning.

[Mushroom Ninja]

For a jedi character, you have the only books you really need. TFU has more than SaV, but i was utterly unimpressed by what TFU had to add to my character, aside from Maris Brood's Guard Shoto (which is mechanically awesome, btw.)

DIdn't it have the improved battlestrike force technique? Or was that KOTOR. I can't quite remember right now.

[Talya]

DIdn't it have the improved battlestrike force technique? Or was that KOTOR. I can't quite remember right now.

It's TFU. It's situationally quite good, but multiple attacks are really only viable for the Melee Duelist PrC build from KotOR. Still, in that build, improved battlestrike could be awesome.

[Mushroom Ninja]

@OP: If you don't mind being a wee bit evil, Dark Rage can be very valuable to melee jedi.

It's TFU. It's situationally quite good, but multiple attacks are really only viable for the Melee Duelist PrC build from KotOR. Still, in that build, improved battlestrike could be awesome.

Yeah, I was going to suggest a Melee Duelist + Improved Battlestrike build if the OP had TFU. Oh well...

[Darth Stabber]

Why is UTF based on CHA, Wisdom seems far more appropriate. Can any one tell me why that is, Because next time I GM I am strongly considering houserulling it to WIS.

[Talya]

Why is UTF based on CHA, Wisdom seems far more appropriate. Can any one tell me why that is, Because next time I GM I am strongly considering houserulling it to WIS.

Charisma is "force of personality." Like with the sorcerer in 3.5. The force is not coaxed into doing what you wish simply by understanding how it works. It requires a force of will. You manipulate the force through strength of mind and soul, not through deeper understanding.

Deeper understanding influences what you can do with the force (wisdom affects Force Training.) Force of personality affects how powerfully you can do it. Furthermore, Jedi are not historically more wise than anybody else. Just watch the prequel trilogy again if you doubt that...sometimes, they're complete fools.

It's also a balancing issue. Force training and UTF ostensibly need to key off of different ability scores to keep jedi from dumping a few stats.

[Darth Stabber]

^I do believe that I am now in my place. thanx for putting me there.

[Mando Knight]

It's TFU. It's situationally quite good, but multiple attacks are really only viable for the Melee Duelist PrC build from KotOR. Still, in that build, improved battlestrike could be awesome.

*Looks it up* Yes, yes it would. There's also the UNLEASHED powers, which are costly per-use, but allow for nifty effects when you need "cinematic" combat...

[Lert, A.]

Why is UTF based on CHA, Wisdom seems far more appropriate. Can any one tell me why that is, Because next time I GM I am strongly considering houserulling it to WIS.

It's because a Wis based UtF is horribly overpowered. For fun I allowed it for a short game I was running and the Jedi basically was able to solo any encounter. Jedi are already powerful, making them effectively SAD just breaks the game.

Unless you are playing an all-Force using character game. Then it might be entertaining.

[Darth Stabber]

Okay Misread stat points, it was 32, This is my current Build
Human Jedi3
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 15
Feats: Force Training, Weapon finesse, rapid strike, Skill focus(UTF)
Skills: Acrobatics, Initiative, Perception, UTF
Talents: Block, Deflect
Force powers: Battle Strike, Force Disarm, Mind Trick

Which or these feats or talents are worth taking
Talents
Force Focus
LS throw
Force intuitions (and retraining init)
Shii-cho
Vapaad
Multiattack proficiency
Djem So
Ataru
Elusive Target

Feats
Double strike
Triple strike
Force Training (again)
Melee Defence
Acrobatic Strike
Martial arts X
whirlwind attack

[Kiero]

Which or these feats or talents are worth taking
Talents
Force Focus
LS throw
Force intuitions (and retraining init)
Shii-cho
Vapaad
Multiattack proficiency
Djem So
Ataru
Elusive Target

I don't much rate Force Focus, and I think LS throw is gimmicky, but not terribly useful. However it might be the only ranged ability you have if you're single-classed Jedi.

Not really any point in Force Intuition if you've already got Init trained.

Shii-Cho is useful if you're playing blaster shield a lot, though Soresu might be more useful. Ataru is necessary for your build if you want to do any real damage, since your Strength is poor.

Multiattack is alright, but I don't think a lot of the multi-attack options are that good.

Feats
Double strike
Triple strike
Force Training (again)
Melee Defence
Acrobatic Strike
Martial arts X
whirlwind attack

Double and Triple strike are not as good as Dual Weapon Mastery, though they do mean you only need one weapon. They're Talent-intensive to make them not suck (since you need Multi-attack Prof at least twice), and getting off a full-round attack against mobile opponents is difficult in the extreme.

Always more Force Training, though you rarely need more than three instances before you've got your suite and re-uses of good powers. You're missing two of the Jedi basics, move object and surge.

Acrobatic Strike has been nerfed beyond any usefulness at all in the errata, Powerful Charge is better.

Martial Arts are good, though you might need your Feats for other things.

Not sure about Whirlwind Attack.

[Darth Stabber]

I find it odd that there are 2 feats(martial arts 1, and improved defences) with no prereqs that are better than dodge, which has a prereq. I'm thinking of taking a lvl in scout to get profs and evasion. Worth it?

[BardicDuelist]

I personally like the feint heavy route that uses Dastardly Strike and Sentinel Strike to move them along the condition track (Sentinel Strike from Damage Threshold).

Block and Deflect are nice, but I'd focus on generally upping your Reflex.

Soldier 1 is a must for Counterpunch if you melee a lot.

[Talya]

Okay Misread stat points, it was 32, This is my current Build
Human Jedi3
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 15
Feats: Force Training, Weapon finesse, rapid strike, Skill focus(UTF)
Skills: Acrobatics, Initiative, Perception, UTF
Talents: Block, Deflect
Force powers: Battle Strike, Force Disarm, Mind Trick

Nice. A bit more specialization.

Which or these feats or talents are worth taking
Talents
Force Focus

I'm not a fan.

LS throw

I've never stylisticly liked this. I prefer redirect for ranged attacks.

Force intuitions (and retraining init)

Explain the retraining thing.

Shii-cho

Not bad. Only really worthwhile if you take Soresu first, which is much much more powerful.

Vapaad

Vapaad requires Juyo, which requires Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. This is not discouragement, because Juyo and Vapaad are absolutely awesome. They just have a high cost, and it's one you'd need to prepare for. I still recommend it.

Also, if you are going to take vaapad, take the feat "Triple Crit." They synergize very, very well.

Multiattack proficiency
Double strike
Triple strike

Not a fan at all.

Djem So

Sucks.

Ataru

For your build, very good.

Elusive Target

Not bad, but talents are at a premium and there are better, especially if you're using deflect already.

Force Training (again)

Take it as many times as you can.

Melee Defence

Golden.

Acrobatic Strike

Sucks with the errata.

Martial arts X

Improved Defenses is better.

whirlwind attack

It's not bad.


You didn't mention Soresu or Juyo. Soresu is a must for anyone using block/deflect. Juyo is possibly the best offensive talent for a jedi at all, and a requirement for Vapaad anyway, which you're considering, and I think that's a good move. Just make room for Focus and Specialization if you're going that route.

[BardicDuelist]

Okay Misread stat points, it was 32, This is my current Build
Human Jedi3
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 15
Feats: Force Training, Weapon finesse, rapid strike, Skill focus(UTF)
Skills: Acrobatics, Initiative, Perception, UTF
Talents: Block, Deflect
Force powers: Battle Strike, Force Disarm, Mind Trick

Which or these feats or talents are worth taking
Talents
Force Focus
LS throw
Force intuitions (and retraining init)
Shii-cho
Vapaad
Multiattack proficiency
Djem So
Ataru
Elusive Target

Feats
Double strike
Triple strike
Force Training (again)
Melee Defence
Acrobatic Strike
Martial arts X
whirlwind attack

Force Disarm sort of sucks. Drop it in favor of Move Object. It is useful both in and out of combat.

Lightsaber throw isn't all that great. I'd take Mobile Combatant (Force Unleashed) instead.

Ataru and Elusive target are very useful.

The thing that I don't really like about Block/Deflect is that you're often better served increasing your REF defense (especially later in the game). Deflect helps for autofire negation though. To make the talents worthwhile, it is very talent-intensive (the different combat styles, etc.).

[Talya]

The thing that I don't really like about Block/Deflect is that you're often better served increasing your REF defense (especially later in the game). Deflect helps for autofire negation though.

I don't know, not if you plan for it. Rolling 2d20 (take the highest) + 33* to block/deflect is going to be better most of the time, even at 20. Your average roll will be about 47 to block. Even if your reflex defense IS 47, this is still worthwhile. For one, assuming a tie, block beats attack which beats reflex defense. Secondly, a natural 20 is going to break your reflex defense painfully, even if fired by a random mook. But a natural 20 isn't that hard to block or deflect.

* - breakdown of bonuses: +10 level, +5 trained, +5 skill focus, +5 fulfilled destiny bonus, +6 charisma modifier, +2 guard shoto.

[Darth Stabber]

So at lvl 12 it's I might look like this
STR 10
DEX18
CON12
INT12
WIS14
CHA18
Skills: UTF +20, perception +13, Acrobatics +15, Initiative +15
Feats: Force Training (x2), Improved Defenses, Martial Arts I, Powerful Charge, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (x1), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (lightsabers)
Talents: Elusive Target, Block, Deflect, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers), Ataru, Juyo, Soresu
Force Powers: Battle Strike, Farseeing, Force Thrust, Mind Trick, Move Object, Surge
Force techniques: Force point recovery, improved sense surroundings

Thinking about taking a dip into Scout for evasion and/or force adept for empower weapon.

[Kiero]

So at lvl 12 it's I might look like this
STR 10
DEX18
CON12
INT12
WIS14
CHA18
Skills: UTF +20, perception +13, Acrobatics +15, Initiative +15
Feats: Force Training (x2), Improved Defenses, Martial Arts I, Powerful Charge, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (x1), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (lightsabers)
Talents: Elusive Target, Block, Deflect, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers), Ataru, Juyo, Soresu
Force Powers: Battle Strike, Farseeing, Force Thrust, Mind Trick, Move Object, Surge
Force techniques: Force point recovery, improved sense surroundings

Thinking about taking a dip into Scout for evasion and/or force adept for empower weapon.

Evasion is absolutely worth dipping a level of Scout. Even with Force Point Recovery, you could do with more instances of certain powers, like Surge and Battlestrike.

Force Thrust is rubbish, Slam is better, or just get more Move Object.

[Darth Stabber]

Human Jedi 6 scout1, jedi knight5
STR 10
DEX18
CON12
INT12
WIS14
CHA18

Lightsaber
+17 (2d8+16)
+15 (3d8+16) with Rapid Strike
Unarmed
+15 (1d6+6)
+14 (2d6+6) with Rapid Strike
Blaster pistol
+15 (3d6+6)

Skills: Acrobatics +15, Endurance +12, Initiative +15, Jump +11, Perception +13, Stealth +15, Use the Force +20
Feats: Force Training (x2), Improved Defenses, Martial Arts I, Powerful Charge, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (x1), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (lightsabers)
Talents: Evasion Block, Deflect, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers), Ataru, Juyo, Soresu
Force Powers: Battle Strike(x2), Farseeing, Mind Trick, Move Object, Surge
Force techniques: Force point recovery, improved sense surroundings

Remaining feats Melee defense(will put points into int and wis), Double attack
Remaining talents Vapaad, Shii-cho, Multi-attack Proff(x)2

[Talya]

Knight PrC requires BAB +7.

Jedi 6, scout 1 has BAB +6, so you don't qualify yet.

[Darth Stabber]

Blast, I am foiled again, when should i take the dip?

[Kiero]

Doesn't matter when you do it, but the first level of Scout has a BAB of +0 so you'll lose a point. That means you need seven Jedi levels before you can take Jedi Knight.

If you started Jedi, how have you got so many Skills? And if you started Scout, how did you get Acrobatics (which isn't a Trained skill for Scout, you'd have to spend a Feat on Skill Training as Jedi to get it)?

[Jack Zander]

The only thing I would suggest is switching your Strength and Dexterity scores, especially if you are boosting charisma and taking block/deflect talents. Dexterity does little for a Jedi who can replace their reflex defense with a block or deflect, and you said you'd like to start out offensive, You'll need the bonus damage to keep up with the lightsaber's low damage dice, and your strength score is doubled when holding a lightsaber in two hands.

This will also free up a feat and a talent for you.

[Darth Stabber]

If I were going to go that route I would not need ataru or Finesse, But that would penalize Stealth, Initiative, and Acrobatics. Also if something gets past block/deflect it still has to go through Ref, So ref might not be as valuable as it was before, but it still carries value.
lets Compare

STR
>more damage (and not by much)
>feat
>talent
DEX
>Better skills
>Better Defenses
>Qualifying for more stuff

My core concept was a defence focused jedi, with fair ability to attack (defender not striker), the extra damage is just not worth it when I already know that the soldier is carrying a heavy blaster rifle, and the scout has a bowcaster (wookie racial profs, w00t. With evasion I know that I can Generally avoid the auto fire from the blaster rifle, Will block and deflect help when i am holding foes in place for Soldier and scout to ping them down? I really should made some room for combat expertise. At any rate confering with my fellow players has made this build make more focused, and my next feat pretty much has to be combat expertise. So based on this what do i need to do to focus on holding aggro.

[DUSUCK]

it's really close just take off 2 from your strength put it on your charisma get shi-choo style and lightsaber shoto take surge as a force power a couple times. You will be a great defensive jedi, it's not that hard to make a really good jedi.
Fact: force users are always better than non users.

[Darth Stabber]

Soldier is darn good with autofire weapons. I think the balance is closer than you want to believe. At least thats been my experience.