Test Your Might [3.X]

[afroakuma]

Alrighty, the game is afoot!

The challenge: Bring your toughest party of four, at any level from 1 to 20. Receive a homebrewed opponent to challenge them.

The object: To assess the difficulty of homebrewed monsters against a reasonably optimized party.

Rules

Battles

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• Battles take place in bright illumination derived from a light source that cannot damage any creature.

• Battles take place on an infinite, featureless horizontal plane at an encounter distance of 75 ft.

• The battle terrain is considered favorable to any ability or effect dependent on the terrain.

• The battle is ended when one side has been completely incapacitated. This means death, petrification, imprisonment, soul trapped or banished back to plane of origin, where applicable.

• All buffs initiate at the start of the battle for duration purposes. You have no actual prep time and no allies beyond those that are class features (mount, familiar, animal companion).

Characters

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• Use any WotC sourcebook for 3.X edition Dungeons & Dragons. Note non-core sources used and what was sourced.

• Items based on WBL.

• You have no animals in your inventory. That is all.

• Party should consist of a mixture of roles: primary attacker, primary supporter, primary caster and skillmonkey, as an example.

DM Fiat

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• With the exception of spells and abilities that specifically reference a non-core monster, only creatures from the MM I are valid selections for spells and abilities.

• Possession of more than one nightstick does not confer additional turning attempts.

• Decide ahead of combat if combat prep is to take place. If one side does it, both sides do it.

• The 'damage based on weights of falling objects' table is disregarded.

• The incantatrix prestige class is unavailable.

• No extraplanar agency is paying any attention to you unless you contact other plane, commune etc. in which case only the agency so contacted will devote any thought to you, for the duration of the effect only, and only in the manner stipulated by the effect.

• A roll of one, even if modified by bonuses or specific effects that would determine it to be some other number, is still not the highest number on anything but a d1.

Procedure

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• If interested, post a brief summary of your party including sourcebooks referenced. You will be allocated a monster based on your party's level.

• If you don't have the time to run the trial yourself, you may post your party's stats (via character sheet or forum statblock) and offer others the chance to run the combat.

• If you have run the trial, please return a brief report indicating what happened during the battle, the final outcome and your thoughts on the challenge (or lack thereof).

[afroakuma]

Alrighty, now that the rules are up, who still wants to play?

[Fax Celestis]

Hokay, lessee. I'm interested. I've got a party of four (at varying ECLs at the moment, but I can up or down them to any ECL you like. It'd be easiest for me to go to ECL 12, though). They are as follows:

• Astraea Theodosia, Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept (currently ECL 10; most of this character appears in Dragon Magic).
• Illumina Mitternacht, Human Ghost Hexblade (currently ECL 7; using the Ghost racial class on the WotC website but removing the (arguably broken) Rejuvenation ability; Hexblade is in CWar, but most of her feats are from Libris Mortis).
• Nephele Nyx Ilithya, Half-Fey Human Spellthief (Currently ECL 12; Half-Fey is in Fiend Folio, Spellthief is in CAdv, and her feats are from CScn and CMage. Most wands are from core or from the Spell Compendium).
• Silence Mordekai, Human Shadowcaster/Shadow Adept (currently ECL 9; Shadowcaster is in ToM, Shadow Adept is in PGtF, and all of her feats are from either book; this assumes that Shadowcaster can qualify for the Shadow Adept PrC; preferably, this would use a "refresh" mechanic: spend a full round in concentration to refresh a "tier" of spells (either Initiate, Apprentice, or Master)).

[afroakuma]

The party averages to ECL 9/10. Did you want to standardize them to somewhere in that region, or just go with what you currently have? Either way should be fine.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd like to normalize them. Where would you like them normalized to?

[arguskos]

I'll be producing something for this here shortly (I'm currently working on a Campaign Journal for my current Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game). Probably in the ECL 7-9 range.

[afroakuma]

Fax: Normalize to ECL 10.

Combat: One Alxialut EL 10.

[Blood_Lord]

A few things:

1) What if you have a guaranteed method of detection outside of 75ft? Like Mindsight 100ft, or Blindsense 200ft or something?

Obviously if the creature can avoid those, that's cool, but since like 99.9% of all monsters can't avoid Blindense, just thought I'd ask.

2) Two PrCs only? Is there any real reason for this?

3) The Divine Metamagic one, isn't DM fiat, Divine Metamagic was errataed to require you to have the feat (and to only work with one specific feat as well.)

4) MM I only. Way to take all the fun out of everything.

5) Why not just limit Nightsticks to not stacking? Last I heard that was at least as valid an interpretation as them stacking, and would remove the concern about every 14,000gp being another Persisted Spell.

6) Are the previous level ranges still in effect?

[Fax Celestis]

I'll get that set up ASAP.

[afroakuma]

1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

3) Some people don't know it. Some people choose to ignore it. But you're right; I can remove that one.

4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

5) The way I've seen it, the concept of a nightstick is specifically that it grants the power to turn undead, whereas the concept of divine metamagic is taking your daily limit of allotted positive energy and channeling it into divine spells. You're suggesting I allow clerics the effects of one nightstick only? If so, I see no harm in that.

6) Level ranges now 1-20.

PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

[Eldariel]

I suggest you just make Divine characters use their inherent Turning-attempts only for DMM and other divine feats (so only the base 3 + attempts derived from stats + attempts derived from feats; this simply stops the use of items to fuel them). That keeps the ability honest, while still making it useful for those who're willing to invest in it.

It also removes the need for arbitrary limitations on how items can be used; for example, Reliquary Holy Symbol [MiC Pg. 120] could also be used so that you wear a new one for each Persist thus effectively making Persisting cost 4 turnings instead of 7; not exactly as powerful as stacked Nightsticks, but stupid regardless. Persisting is plenty powerful without using items to fuel it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fax: Normalize to ECL 10.

Combat: One Alxialut EL 10.

That's one mighty cheezy critter. DimDoor as a SLA at will, Force Push which knocks opponents back as a move action, Charm Aura?

However, it has a few problems, in regards to Fax's team.

Dragonfire Adept can play the range game well, and it only has 75 hit points. If it's got a Silver or White Dragon heretage, this could make him immune to a lot of the cold-based attacks.

Can a Spellthief steal SLA's? If so, this could prove an interesting encounter.

[Blood_Lord]

1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

Well, CR is heavily dependent (or should be) on the likelihood of them getting a surprise round, so that should probably be included in calculating CR. But I was just saying why not have them be detected at the range they would be detected, but it's cool either way.

2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

I've never heard of a combination of Supreme power that came from PrC dipping. I've heard of good optimization that involves taking levels in one PrC until you can qualify for another one, after which you take all the levels in that PrC, and then start taking levels in a third PrC.

I've never seen a PrC limit which helped anything in any game. I've seen characters who literally have 2-3 levels in 5-6 PrCs that were played in a game and no more or less powerful.

4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

No, Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun, no Arrow Demon means no Cleric Archer, no Chronotyryn means Wizards can't do what they actually do in game, no Shadow Golem means no immunities gained through shapechange, even though immunities are always gained through Shapechange.

If you just want no Pun-Pun say no Pun-Pun.

If only Core MM I creatures are allowed, then can I use the RAW and retarded rule that spellcasting is EX, and just give everyone Cleric casting too?

6) Level ranges now 1-20.

Probably make a level 20 party, and since you went through all the work of creating the monsters, I can fully stat out all the characters.

PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

Well, I am familiar with several uber-optimization loopholes, but in the process of banning 50% of what I consider par-for the course builds, you managed to get all the ones I can think of off hand, except polymorph granting the spellcasting of whatever you turn into, which I find horribly stupid.

Also, the extraplanar thing didn't really bring anything to me as too funny, except that I am lead to believe that most of our enemies are extraplanar beings.

Am I missing anything in particular?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1) Essentially you've all been teleported in at that distance. Some monsters would likely find you at large range as well; this way, everyone knows all at once. It cuts away the bias introduced by a surprise round.

2) To allow for optimization without being able to find too many wacky combinations of supreme power.

3) Some people don't know it. Some people choose to ignore it. But you're right; I can remove that one.

4) No Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun.

5) The way I've seen it, the concept of a nightstick is specifically that it grants the power to turn undead, whereas the concept of divine metamagic is taking your daily limit of allotted positive energy and channeling it into divine spells. You're suggesting I allow clerics the effects of one nightstick only? If so, I see no harm in that.

6) Level ranges now 1-20.

PS: Were you at all amused by the section regarding extraplanar attention? Also, if you are familiar (and I suspect you may be) with any other uber-optimization loopholes, let me know.

Sent you a PM detailing some of the more obtuse types of cheeze, including THE Hulking Hurler build, King of Smack, and Bag of Puppies

[Mushroom Ninja]

Hmm, I guess I'll throw together a party.

I'll have it up at some (unspecified) point in the near future.

[Blood_Lord]

That's one mighty cheezy critter. DimDoor as a SLA at will, Force Push which knocks opponents back as a move action, Charm Aura?

I don't think it's a very cheezy creature.

Charm Aura is only when not engaged, and I'm pretty sure this counts as engaged.

Being able to use move actions for real effects is generally prohibited in most of D&D. Bu Force Push isn't that terrible, and it makes up for the fact that unlike most outsiders, it has no quickened SLAs.

Also, Dimension Door at will is not even close to cheezy, most Demons/Devils/Archons have Greater Teleport at will, and that's much better, especially with a move action push attack. Dimension Door prevents any further actions, so no Force push, just take a full attack.

[Draz74]

Sent you a PM detailing some of the more obtuse types of cheeze, including THE Hulking Hurler build, King of Smack, and Bag of Puppies

... huh. I didn't think King of Smack qualified for this kind of company. I thought it wasn't so much better than most other highly-optimized melee builds (e.g. Homer the Flaming Bowling Ball of Doom).

[afroakuma]

Well, CR is heavily dependent (or should be) on the likelihood of them getting a surprise round, so that should probably be included in calculating CR. But I was just saying why not have them be detected at the range they would be detected, but it's cool either way.

Judging by the horrible swing it took just by a standard initiative round, I'm worried that it may devalue the trials to add surprise rounds.

I've never heard of a combination of Supreme power that came from PrC dipping. I've heard of good optimization that involves taking levels in one PrC until you can qualify for another one, after which you take all the levels in that PrC, and then start taking levels in a third PrC.

I've never seen a PrC limit which helped anything in any game. I've seen characters who literally have 2-3 levels in 5-6 PrCs that were played in a game and no more or less powerful.

We'll see how it goes.

No, Sarrukhs means no Pun-Pun, no Arrow Demon means no Cleric Archer

That was certainly another consideration at the time.

no Chronotyryn means Wizards can't do what they actually do in game

I don't follow.

no Shadow Golem means no immunities gained through shapechange, even though immunities are always gained through Shapechange.

Most trials won't even get high enough for shapechange. If they do, I'm sure there are other strategies available.

Probably make a level 20 party, and since you went through all the work of creating the monsters, I can fully stat out all the characters.

That will be good. I'm curious on some of the more powerful ones.

Well, I am familiar with several uber-optimization loopholes, but in the process of banning 50% of what I consider par-for the course builds

You consider that cleric a par-for-the-course build; I consider a PC with 16 attacks at level 12 to be overpowered. There's little point running trials against a character who can melt the face off of anything that doesn't live in a prismatic sphere.

you managed to get all the ones I can think of off hand, except polymorph granting the spellcasting of whatever you turn into, which I find horribly stupid.

Come again?

Also, the extraplanar thing didn't really bring anything to me as too funny, except that I am lead to believe that most of our enemies are extraplanar beings.

The gag was based on the idea of Pazuzu showing up because someone called his name. The fiat ruling is that your characters are utterly unimportant to the rest of the universe.

[Blood_Lord]

and Bag of Puppies

Is there even a way to make Bag of Puppies work for anything?

Or is that a reference to Greater Consumptive Field?

[wadledo]

Oh, yea.
I'm totally in on this.

[afroakuma]

Regarding the supposed cheese:

What everyone else said. I determined that a force push took no greater movement than opening a door, which is a move action.

Also, the original trial I ran on him at EL 10 saw him die hard and fast. Force pushes barely kept him alive long enough to pummel the wizard with magic missiles.

[Eldariel]

I'd disallow Metamorphic Transfer-feat, which among others allows early Beholder Mage qualifications (for standard no-LA characters) and stupid crap like that. Also, Dweomerkeeper is a fairly abuse Cleric PrC that allows, among others, Wishes and Limited Wishes with no XP costs. Shadowcraft Mage is similarly stupid allowing for free Miracles (albeit it's a bit worse without Incantatrix, but there're other solid complements).

Really, I suppose the better way to deal with those is stating that nothing negates the XP cost of any given spell, even if you can gain it as a supernatural ability or it's actually a Silent Image. And yea, Polymorph-line granting spellcasting is dumb. Also, second Polymorph Any Object making the first one permanent regardless of the form generates all kinds of issues. Just either banning PAO (since it does dumb crap) or making it work based on creature's non-magical type et al. would probably be better. Just few off the top of my head.

Likewise, the fact that Planar Bindings have no limits so you could theorethically have any number of them active to generate an outsider army (with no chance of failing the opposed checks) is a bit dumb. Gate can be likewise abusive (the Gated creatures are forced to obey you so you can just order them to lower their resistances and fail their next save and Mindrape them to planeshift to you and be your loyal servants for the rest of eternity once Gate ends; a simple classic of generating an army of Outsider With Planeshift) and of course, Candle of Invocation is total bull**** as someone left out the XP cost of the spell (it opens up approximately a hundred infinite Wish tricks). Wish also should have a hard limit on the price of the magic item it can provide.

Also, you may want to consider banning at least Celerity, Persistent Consumptive Fields (they can give you infinite CL easily), Leadership (it's just stupid combined with anything if optimizing, and tons of bookkeeping to boot) and Craft Contingent Spell since they make it pretty much impossible for the caster to be harmed on certain levels (especially since Favor of the Martyr can be used to negate the Daze-effect, and then there's the Quick Recovery/whatever-feat in Lords of Madness that allows you to always get a save vs. Daze).

Also, banning Hulking Hurler might be a prudent move as the PrC is based on carrying capacity which isn't designed to be used as a damage source (even if a caster with enough preparation would beat one, being able to deal a billion points of area effect damage isn't really sensible), and is really easy to increase. Alternatively, you could just trust the players' judgment on what's too good and work from there; optimizers aware of the means to do stupid stuff are sensible enough not to actually do it in games too.


Also, I'm going to work a level 12 party; probably Archivist, Wizard, Druid and Artificer just to get a bit of the higher tier testing too. It'll take me a day or two though, especially with the spell lists and crossreferencing related optimization work, but I should get 'em together soon enough. The roles would be Archivist Archer (plus divine support), Wizard (well, obviously arcane support), Druid Tank (plus divine) and Artificer skillmonkey (and all kinds of support + cheap gear).

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, my party's ready all but for their gear: gear is about the only thing I can't do without my books. But, Nephele's a bit over par, Silence is about on par, Astraea IS on par...it's just Illumina that's getting the short end of the stick. I'm going to make her longsword +2 and her armor +3 (from +1 and +2, respectively) and call it even.

Do me a favor and check over "Fax's Angels" sheets so you can make sure I didn't miss anything, and we can get going.

[Mystral]

I've got a few questions:

What about Attributes and Hitpoints? Am I allowed to pick the spells with knowledge about the monster I am about to fight? Am I allowed to pool the starting money of the party together so one guy can have a little more, one guy a little less?

My party would be as follows (rough scetch, Partylevel 6)

Batman: Human Wizard 6 (Focused on control and buffs)
Meatshield: Dwarven Knight 6 (AC and Goading, frontline defence)
Striker: Human Warlock 6 (Flies around and shoots black death rays of facemelting)
Healbot: Human Cleric 6 (Focused on buffs, secondary defense)

Books used: Core, Complete Series, PH2

Is that to rough of a scetch? :o

[afroakuma]

I'm pretty confident that most people will be here for the trials, not to try to push the madness as far as possible despite the restrictive rules.

As far as the Celerity tree, I'm going to leave it in, but with the proviso (this will be added) that the time cost incurred by the spell (be it dazed or what have you) cannot be avoided.

[Draz74]

Alternatively, you could just trust the players' judgment on what's too good and work from there; optimizers aware of the means to do stupid stuff are sensible enough not to actually do it in games too.

Yeah, there's enough cheese strategies out there that I'd recommend this ... except that I'm not sure all optimizers *are* that sensible, and defining "how much is too much" is tough. I think the examples Afro has given are actually a good start, but they need to be supplemented by an explicit statement "anything similarly cheesy to the stuff I've banned is out too."

[Blood_Lord]

I don't follow.

Extra actions. Of course, it also prevents them from using Planar Binding spells the way they should, But Planar Binding even in Core is as game breaking as Pun-Pun.

That will be good. I'm curious on some of the more powerful ones.

I don't even know if it's possible for me to make level 20 builds this hamstrung.

Being forced to take 9 levels of Wizard for some builds is patently ridiculous, since no one ever would. Same for Cleric, but I can at least fill it in with crap levels of a PrC that don't grant anything, so it at least looks less bad.

You consider that cleric a par-for-the-course build; I consider a PC with 16 attacks at level 12 to be overpowered. There's little point running trials against a character who can melt the face off of anything that doesn't live in a prismatic sphere.

Actually, I don't consider that build par-for the course, I consider it face meltingly awesome, but that's entirely because of DMM Persist, and nothing to do with PrCs. Also, that number was wrong, I forgot that Recitation gives an extra attack like haster, so actually 20 attacks.

What I consider par for the course is having a build like:

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Contemplative 10 (or Contemplative 5, X 5.)

Or Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/PrC 10/PrC 4

Or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 6/IotSFV 7/Archmage 4.

Come again?

Based on the definitions in the MM, spellcasting would have to be an EX ability, granted by polymorph It's also listed as such in later MMs. This means anyone could be polymorphed into a caster, then cast all their spells long lasting spells, then be polymorphed to a form better suited to taking advantage of those spells.

You can also polymorph yourself into something that can cast Polymorph, use all the other spells, then polymorph yourself into something else, ect. It take a lot of work, but some people swear buy it.

I personally think it devalues the game when anyone who can make a DC 20 UMD check can cast 9th level Cleric and Wizard spells.

Damn, while I was typing that I thought of another abuse but forgot it. I don't think that one had anything to do with Polymorph.

EDIT: I actually thought of a couple, but Eld-covered the ones I thought of.

[afroakuma]

Fax: A little over or under should be fine. Where are the sheets, by the way?

I've got a few questions:

What about Attributes and Hitpoints? Am I allowed to pick the spells with knowledge about the monster I am about to fight?

You likely won't be allocated a monster until I've seen the party, so technically no. I won't be gunning for you with specific monsters, though.

As far as it being a practical matter, the answer is also no. I would question how your party survived to the level they are at if one of your sorcerer's few spells was kill monster x, and his little dog, too.

Am I allowed to pool the starting money of the party together so one guy can have a little more, one guy a little less?

A little leeway, yes. Not much, though. I'm going to say, 1/8 WBL can be transferred from one party member to another, once only. Sound reasonable?

Party sounds good; let me know when you have a more complete idea.

[Fax Celestis]

• Astraea Theodosia, Silverbrow Human Dragonfire Adept 10
• Illumina Mitternacht, Human Ghost 3/Hexblade 6/Ephemeral Exemplar 1
• Nephele Nyx Ilithya, Half-Fey Human Spellthief 8
• Silence Mordekai, Human Shadowcaster 5/Shadow Adept 5

And of course it is NOW that I realize that Astraea has like NO gear. Forgot I never finished that sheet. So I'll take care of that tonight and we can begin.

[wadledo]

afroakuma: do you need any help?
I'd love to run a few of these(and check my own homebrew at the same time).
Once it gets all together, of course.