Bardblade, need some random advice

[Zergrusheddie]

So, thanks to "Keld Denar" I have an entire build planned out that does healthy amounts of damage and can buff the party so they do healthy amounts of damage. I was wondering if using maneuvers was actually worth it though, considering most add like 2d6 for a single swing but with DFI isn't it superior to go for 2 attacks and not 1?

[Signmaker]

So, thanks to "Keld Denar" I have an entire build planned out that does healthy amounts of damage and can buff the party so they do healthy amounts of damage. I was wondering if using maneuvers was actually worth it though, considering most add like 2d6 for a single swing but with DFI isn't it superior to go for 2 attacks and not 1?

Depends on how much you Inspire by. A Snow-flaked Bard with Inspiration can do several d6 fire damage with each swing. I think 7d6 is pretty easily accessible by around 10th level. At that point, even TWFing daggers would hurt.

[Eldariel]

If you want to do full attacks, focus on boosts and counters instead. Getting extra attacks, full attacks after movement and so on is still extremely helpful, as is making your saves, countering attacks, etc.

[Townopolis]

Pick maneuvers from Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and White Raven. If you have access, Iron Heart has a few good boosts and counters as well. Note that for TC, you'll spend a few levels with precious little to take (and then you'll get dancing mongoose), and for DM you'll spend a while picking up random stuff until you can get their high-level boosts (like quicksilver motion) and counters (diamond defense)... and then of course there's Time Stands Still.

If you have a way of getting pounce, White Raven maneuvers are very good. It is, however, debatable whether they're "very good" (charge maneuvers give the damage bonus on the 1st attack only) or "ridiculous" (you get the bonus damage on every attack).

[Keld Denar]

If you go back and check out the thread that I posted the build in, there is a maneuver progression now, as well. It focuses primarily on boosts, although there are some strikes in there, mostly so that I could meet prereqs. Strikes are primarily there for rounds when you don't get a full attack. That way you can stroll up to someone, and smack em harder than you would without a strike. If you have the option to full attack, you always should, especially once you get the boosts Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. These add extra attacks per round. Sudden Leap is also in the build, which is a mini-pounce, assuming you can make decent jump checks.

I used a bardblade in my challenges that I'm running with Afroakuma and Fax Celestis, and so far, hes ok, but not terribly broken on his own. What is really stupid is the amount of extra damage that he gives to the primary fighter who already hits for over 30 a hit, even when he's only PAing for 2 points.

[Zergrusheddie]

Snow-flake is an Exalted feat?

At level 5, with TWF Short Swords, I'll be doing 1d6+4d6. Most of the maneuvers, at low level at least, seem to be "1 attack, +2d6." At higher level, there are ones that allow double swings and such but it seems like at low level saving the maneuvers for when I have to approach and swing is a better idea that actually using them as part as a follow attack action.

[Keld Denar]

At level 5, Steel Wind is pretty much pounce for you. You only get 2 attacks while TWF, and Steel Wind gives you 2 attacks, except you don't have to take TWF penalties, so its actually better than your TWF right now.

Most of the low level Tiger Claw maneuvers are crappy, except Sudden Leap, which requires 1 other TC maneuver. Thus, you are stuck with something kind of crappy, but you can replaced it as soon as you get to level 4.

Also note that Punishing Stance gives you another +1d6 damage. So you are doing 2d6 +4d6 fire with each attack using short swords. Unfortunately, on a crit, you only do 3d6 +4d6 fire, plus double whatever static bonuses you have, like str, not a huge improvement.

EDIT: Snowflake Wardance is a feat from Frostburn. You can spend a BM attempt to gain your Cha to hit for a number of rounds equal to the ranks you have in perform. Unfortunately, as a Bard4/Warblade1, you only ever get 4 BM uses, so squandering them on SFWD hurts a lot. I'd recommend not taking it, and getting something more useful instead.

[Arbitrarity]

Most of the low level Tiger Claw maneuvers are crappy, except Sudden Leap, which requires 1 other TC maneuver. Thus, you are stuck with something kind of crappy, but you can replaced it as soon as you get to level 4.

EDIT: Snowflake Wardance is a feat from Frostburn. You can spend a BM attempt to gain your Cha to hit for a number of rounds equal to the ranks you have in perform. Unfortunately, as a Bard4/Warblade1, you only ever get 4 BM uses, so squandering them on SFWD hurts a lot. I'd recommend not taking it, and getting something more useful instead.

How about Wolf Fang Strike? It's basically a full attack at this level, as a standard action, vs one target.

Snowflake Wardance would be OK with Extra music, but that's a pretty heavy feat investment.

[Signmaker]

How about Wolf Fang Strike? It's basically a full attack at this level, as a standard action, vs one target.

Snowflake Wardance would be OK with Extra music, but that's a pretty heavy feat investment.

True. I don't think the feat was intended for anything less than a full Bard. As such, it's probably not the best choice for a bardblade.

[Arbitrarity]

Meh, it's additive. An extra +charisma to hit can be nice.

Actually, it makes me laugh how a bard can be a sweet gish on his own, with his Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, +1 Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade, his music buffs hit with Words of Creation and Song of the Heart (+ badge of valor, +Inspirational boost, + mandolin + Vest of Legends).

Alas, the buff rounds take too long. But even just +14 to hit/damage, with + charisma to hit, +10 sonic damage, + charisma fire damage, using just your first 2 swift actions, is pretty useful.

[Zergrusheddie]

If you go back and check out the thread that I posted the build in, there is a maneuver progression now, as well. It focuses primarily on boosts, although there are some strikes in there, mostly so that I could meet prereqs. Strikes are primarily there for rounds when you don't get a full attack. That way you can stroll up to someone, and smack em harder than you would without a strike. If you have the option to full attack, you always should, especially once you get the boosts Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. These add extra attacks per round. Sudden Leap is also in the build, which is a mini-pounce, assuming you can make decent jump checks.

I used a bardblade in my challenges that I'm running with Afroakuma and Fax Celestis, and so far, hes ok, but not terribly broken on his own. What is really stupid is the amount of extra damage that he gives to the primary fighter who already hits for over 30 a hit, even when he's only PAing for 2 points.

Yeah, I saw the maneuver progression (thanks again mate!), but was just wondering if I would actually end up using most of them, aside from the extra attack ones.

Yeah, DFI will be extremely interesting with my group make up considering the Rogue is TWF, the Cleric has between 3-6 Undead minions, and the Warlock is thinking about taking an Invocation that would give me 1-3 Minions. I will probably be doing less to a mass of trash than our Evoker Wizard, but the amount of damage that I will add to the party will be frightening. The build is perfect for me; powerful enough to be deadly but not overshadowing, and the ability to make everyone else twice as good.

[Keld Denar]

Errm, not particularly. I'd keep 1 strike handy, probably Steel Wind, at least until you get a strike thats worth something. You only get to ready 3 maneuvers at 3, which are the 3 you know. Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang, and Steel Wind. When you get to Warblade2 and learn the WR strike, use that instead of Wolf Fang, and when you get WRT, use that instead of that WR Strike. So, by ECL 7, your maneuvers readied should be Sudden Leap, WRT, and Steel Wind. 2 boosts and 1 strike. Use WRT any round that you can make a full attack, or when you use Steel Wind, otherwise use Sudden Leap to close on an enemy if you can, and full attack. Refresh maneuvers when you are in full attack range of someone, and you don't have WRT readied.

[Arbitrarity]

Errm, not particularly. I'd keep 1 strike handy, probably Steel Wind, at least until you get a strike thats worth something. You only get to ready 3 maneuvers at 3, which are the 3 you know. Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang, and Steel Wind. When you get to Warblade2 and learn the WR strike, use that instead of Wolf Fang, and when you get WRT, use that instead of that WR Strike. So, by ECL 7, your maneuvers readied should be Sudden Leap, WRT, and Steel Wind. 2 boosts and 1 strike. Use WRT any round that you can make a full attack, or when you use Steel Wind, otherwise use Sudden Leap to close on an enemy if you can, and full attack. Refresh maneuvers when you are in full attack range of someone, and you don't have WRT readied.

Wait, why use Tactical Strike over Wolf Fang Strike? -2 to hit hurts, but he gets so much extra damage per hit that two attacks seem much better than +2d6 damage (I mean, 6d6 per hit. Why not two attacks?)

White Raven Tactics, yes. Awesome, awesome power.

[Zergrusheddie]

What's so great about Sudden Leap?

[Arbitrarity]

Swift action movement. IS AWESOME. You move your jump check distance, and you still have a full round action left, i.e. full attack. You can move in, attack, Leap out (or vice versa).

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Sudden Leap is mostly used as a pseudo pounce. If you are like, 15' away from a foe, normally you'd have to walk up to them and hit them once. If you Sudden Leap at them, you'd still get to make a full attack, which is the whole purpose of pounce. Granted, its not very long range, but what do you expect from a 1st level maneuver? Its probably the only 1st level maneuver that is still GREAT by ECL10 or more. No Strike can say that...

[Zergrusheddie]

So, what skills should be pumped? My int will be either 12 or 14

[Keld Denar]

Depends on how good a stats you get, or what pointbuy you use. You need high dex to afford to buy the TWF feats, and also if you plan to take Weapon Finesse to increase your to-hit, depending on the gap between your str and dex. You also need con, so you don't die early and often. Str probably comes next for the bonus to damage, regardless of finess, and then int. Cha and wis are your dump stats.

[Zergrusheddie]

Alright, so I just noticed that a Short Sword is not a preferred on Tiger Claw but is one for Setting Sun; though Warblades can't learn Setting Sun maneuvers. So, for the feat Battle Meditation (bonus feat for Warblades) I was thinking of either using 2 Kukris (1d4 18-20) or 2 Handaxes (1d6 X3). Which should I use?

Also, is there a certain reason other than Battle Meditation why you would want to use a preferred weapon?

[Keld Denar]

Um, not really. Some feats like Shadow Blade (for Shadow Hand) require it, as well as some PrCs like Bloodclaw Master. Otherwise you can use whatever you want. My bad about the shortswords though. Hand Axes would probably be better, due to the 1 point higher average damage. DFI and bonus damage from strikes aren't multiplied in a crit, so the extra threat range on Kukri's is mostly wasted.

Make sense? It really doesn't matter much. Use whatever weapon you think would be fun. In the end, 1 point of base damage per hit hardly matters.

[woodenbandman]

Is it more bard or more blade? If you can get enough caster levels, remember your incredible bard buffs. I've got a divine bard who persists a bunch of buffs, such as greater mirror image and greater blink. He's totally house at tanking. You can't really do that as an arcane bard, but if you are open to using the UA divine bard and can manage a 15 wisdom or higher, then you have access to all day long tasty buffs.

If it's more 'blade, then that's not my area of expertise, i usually go crusader with a swordsage dip if anything. I do know that Jade Phoenix mage has crap school access, so you'll have to decide if you want more caster levels or more maneuvers. I likes me some caster levels, personally. Grease and Glitterdust are pretty FTW.

[Keld Denar]

The build was posted in a different thread, but the gist of it comes down to be Bard4, then Warblade16, so its more Warblade than Bard. Bard is there solely to milk that sweet sweet Dragonfire Inspiration, throw it on both weapons, and then tear things to bits with Tiger Claw TWF boosts.

Very very martially centric, and a bit of a glass cannon, but capable of some pretty numbers.

[Zergrusheddie]

Yes, Keld is awesome. If you are wondering what the build looks like, here is the link:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5648283