A theory on what a powerful crossclassing would be in V3.5

[Darkmage]

I am unsure if someone else has suggested this or not, but my theory only works with Level 10+ from what my thoughts on this has been.

Start as a rogue and get 2 levels of rogue and get Evasion, then go Wizard or Sorcerer depending on which you prefer.

8 levels in Wizard/Sorcerer, you need a high Spellcraft to attempt to successfully counterspell, you go into battle and a enemy wizard/sorcerer attacks in your direction, you could try to stop it with a Spellcraft roll that succeeds to counterspell, if you fail, you can always attempt a Reflex save (Though last I checked Wizards and Sorcerers have low Reflex saves, so a few extra Rogue levels are always possible) and if you succeed, then you take no damage, if you fail, you take half, though you have to hope they roll minimum damage most likely.

The feats you choose would ultimately be your choice, but must haves are Evasion and Counterspell.

Oh, and a high INT would help.

I randomly rolled stats for this character too.

STR 11
INT 17
DEX 15
CON 13
WIS 13
CHA 10

He was rolled as a Human Level 2 Rogue, Level 8 Wizard, so that's d6 for two levels and d4 HP for eight levels, he wound up with around 43 HP including his CON bonus.

His three chosen feats for been a human were as followed.

Silent Spell
Alertness
Quicken Spell

This is merely a theory of mine which a possible outcome.

I await your opinions on my theory.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Wait, what theory? There's no theory there, man.

[Edwin]

I am unsure as to what your theory is..? That you'll be able to counterspell, and in case you fail, evade the backlash?

And what on earth does your feat selection has to do with the above? And I don't think Evasion and Counterspell are actual feats?

Please, do elaborate.

[Darkmage]

It's my belief that if you had a character like this, you could either prevent spells and if you fail, you will only take half damage.

I guess I misworded it, I'll have to work on that.

That's what happens when your awake at 2:30am in the morning I guess.

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Rogues are nothing new, and are as old as the game.

Specifically in 3.0 and 3.5, they have been around since the beginning with the Arcane Trickster PrC, and more recently with the PrCs Unseen Seer (amazing) and Spellwarped Sniper (ok, but still fun). Wiz/Rogue has much better synergy, because of Int synergy and the fact that wizards are 1/2 a spell level ahead of sorcerers, althoug sorc isn't bad either.

Also, counterspelling is only really good if you have a really specialized spell. Since you are already readying an action, you might as well ready something like an Empowered Scorching Ray. At CL8, that nets you 2 rays at 4d6 x 1.5 each, for an average of 42 damage. The concentration check needed to keep your spell is then 47+spell level, which is pretty close to impossible to make before Level 15 or so, and even then not likely at all. End result? No spell. Much better than counterspelling.

What are you asking? Were you just trying to post on the neat idea of your build? Or asking for help optimizing an Arcane Rogue style character? If so, please post relevant info like books allowed, starting level, expected ending level, and party composition, if possible.

[BobVosh]

Hah, detect ninja worked!

Anyway, if you fail a reflex save with only evasion you still take full. You need improved evasion for better.

As they said, no theory, and evasion/counterspell aren't feats. Also improved counterspell would suck for you (1 spell level behind already). In either case you have access to dispel magic for countering.

In order to counterspell you have to ready an action, so it usually isn't worth it.(you waste an action if you can't counterspell, or they don't cast)

*quick edit* Yes...you kinda can. (still not guaranteed) But why would you want to? Scorching Ray as mentioned above will likely be better.

[Darkmage]

I was asking for assistance on how to yes if I were to create a 10th level or higher character.

I'm not sure if it'd ever work but this is why I'm trying to get help on it so I'll know for sure how it would be best to make one.

I apologize if I'm not making much sense to you, right now I'm not making much sense to myself either.

[The Neoclassic]

Halna: I think his point is "Would this in fact be a very strong / optimized build?" though, yes, "theory" was not the proper word for him to use here.

Anyway, my answer will be short and weak compared with what's probably to come, since I am not an optimizer and many of the people here know far more about excelling in combat situations (in game, of course).

Well, against enemy spellcasters the guy would be pretty swell, but remember that a lot of spells have Fort or Will saves instead (OK, not as much the former, I think, but it happens sometimes). With sor/wiz levels, you'll be fine with Will saves, and yeah, rogue will up the Ref save a good bit. So, against spells where you get a Reflex save, you have a much better chance of coming out safe than a usual sor/wiz does. Honestly, for the lower level spells, why even bother counterspelling it (since you can probably dodge it)? This is, of course, based upon my shaky memory that counterspelling requires you to use up a spell slot.

Unfortunately, you lose two levels of firepower (and probably a level of spells from what a straight-up sor/wiz would be) and you don't gain anything useful against, for example, usual melee attacks. So, I don't think it helps all that much, though if you are in a setting where your primary opponents are other casters (or dragons- all those breath weapons!), it could work out well.


EDIT: I got ninja'd by a solid five people there.

[Edwin]

Well, yeah, that's true. You would have the ability to counterspell, as well as only taking half damage in case of a failed save.

But, in that case, you'd be better off taking either full Rogue or full Wizard.
Full Rogue would net you Improved Evasion (no damage on succesful save, half on failed), and full Wizard would let you counterspell more efficiently. As well as letting you get better and more powerful spells.

However, if you are keen on the idea of a Rogish Mage, then I support Keld Denar, go Arcane Trickster.

[BobVosh]

Well, yeah, that's true. You would have the ability to counterspell, as well as only taking half damage in case of a failed save.

But, in that case, you'd be better off taking either full Rogue or full Wizard.
Full Rogue would net you Improved Evasion (no damage on succesful save, half on failed), and full Wizard would let you counterspell more efficiently. As well as letting you get better and more powerful spells.

However, if you are keen on the idea of a Rogish Mage, then I support Keld Denar, go Arcane Trickster.

Actually he takes full damage on a failed save.

[Edwin]

Actually he takes full damage on a failed save.

Whoops, yeah. That was a mistake. Was thinking of Improved Evasion, as I also noted later in my post.

[Keld Denar]

A more optimized build would look a little somethin like this:

Human or Strongheart Halfling (FRCS)

1 Spellthief(CAdventurer) 1 feats Able Learner (Races of Destiny), Improved Init (PHB)
2 Focused Specialist(CMage) Conjourer 1 with the Abrupt Jaunt Alt Class Feature from PHBII, banning Abjuration, Enchantment, and Necromancy
3 Conjourer2 Acid Splatter (CMage)
4 Conjourer3
5 Unseen Seer(CMage) 1
6 Unseen Seer2 Master Spellthief (CScoundrel)
7 Unseen Seer3

Unseen Seer until 10, then 5 levels of Arcane Trickster, picking up Empower Spell at 9, and probably Quicken Spell at 12, and anything else really at 15 and 18.

Finishes with 19/20 Spellcasting levels at CL20 for non-divination, CL21 for [Acid] spells, and CL23 for Divinations, 7d6 Sneak Attack, lots of skills thanks to Int synergy and Able Learner, and the ability to syphon off spells memorized by opposing high level casters and use them to fuel your own spellcasting. The trick is to sneak attack with weaponlike spells, such as Orbs (Spell Compendium) and Rays (Scorching, Frost, Flame, Stun, etc). You CAN sneak attack with "weaponlike spells" as clarified by the passage of the same name in Complete Arcane. Early game, you can also sneak attack all day long from range with Acid Splatter, as long as your opponent is flat footed, which is what Grease and Glitterdust are great at making.

Take a look at the build, piece by piece. I listed all the sources. If you don't have all those books, print this off, go to a local Barnes and Nobles (or similar), buy a large coffee, find a comfy chair, and go brousing through all the source books I mentioned. Most of the features are pretty straight forward, and you shouldn't need the book once you know what they do (like Abrupt Jaunt from PHBII).

Any questions?

[mostlyharmful]

If you're really worried about Reflex save AoE spells just get a ring of evasion, much cheaper than an entire spell level worth of casting.

The best wizard Debuffs and Direct damage don't allow saves, those that do allmost never target Reflex.... there's more important things to worry about when you're facing down a mage.

[Starbuck_II]

I am unsure if someone else has suggested this or not, but my theory only works with Level 10+ from what my thoughts on this has been.

Start as a rogue and get 2 levels of rogue and get Evasion, then go Wizard or Sorcerer depending on which you prefer.

8 levels in Wizard/Sorcerer, you need a high Spellcraft to attempt to successfully counterspell, you go into battle and a enemy wizard/sorcerer attacks in your direction, you could try to stop it with a Spellcraft roll that succeeds to counterspell, if you fail, you can always attempt a Reflex save (Though last I checked Wizards and Sorcerers have low Reflex saves, so a few extra Rogue levels are always possible) and if you succeed, then you take no damage, if you fail, you take half, though you have to hope they roll minimum damage most likely.

Wasting actions to counterspell is not smart. Because you do nothing all combat possibly.

If you are going to counterspell: Go Noctumancer Prc, etc.
They let you do it without readying an action (limited amount, each day, but idf you have the mystery Warp Spell: you can do it a few more times as an immediate action).


I'd try:
Wiz 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer X and buy a ring of evasion.
Feat choice Need: Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Prc.
That way you get evasion and aren't sucky with counterspelling.

If for some reason you don't want the ring: then take the Rogue 2 levels.
Only issue is you will behind in progression.