Negative Caster Level

[Keld Denar]

So...lets pretend that there is a wizard. This wizard has something...very bad...happen to him. His CL has been reduced to below 0. Its very very very unfortunate...

Now, could said wizard still cast any spells?

What about instantaneous spells with no level dependant features?

[Edwin]

Can CL even go below 0?

[Blood_Lord]

@OP, no he can't.

Can CL even go below 0?

level 1-3 Wizard with Mage Slayer.

[TheStranger]

My initial thought would be that you could still cast your spells normally, but anything with a */level duration or a level-dependent effect would be ineffective (cast, but useless). That would seem like the inverse of the way CL-increasing effects work. Not sure if that's RAW, but it seems intuitive.

[RTGoodman]

The wizard can definitely cast spells, but they're just not as good as they would be otherwise. I'm NOT sure, however, about whether or not the CL would actually be negative, or if there's a minimum of 0 for it.

Either way, it'd suck for all those "1 round/level" spells and stuff like that. Some spells, like ray of frost, though, wouldn't be affected besides for determining range. Basically, you'd be stuck with spells that have automatic effects (magic missile, color spray) that DON'T depend on CL.

[Edwin]

level 1-3 Wizard with Mage Slayer.

Yeah, I know that 3-4=-1, but I always thought that it would simple put your Cl to a minimum of 0 (as in, cannot cast spells dependant on level).

[The Glyphstone]

Well, there is some precedent in the Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level, which has the drawback of giving you -1 to your caster level to either evocations, conjurations, or transmutations. It specifically states that a caster using this feature would not be able to cast spells of that school at 1st level.

[Keld Denar]

So...if I have a CL of 12, and something imposes a -16 CL on me. After that, I use UMD to trip off a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads (DMG) to get +4 CL.

Would my CL then be 0 (12-16+4=0)?

Or would it be 12-16 to a minimum of 0, then +4 to be 4? I'm pretty sure the penalty is an ongoing thing, because it has a duration of 24 hours.

[afroakuma]

Based on this:

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question

I would say no.

[Adumbration]

On the plus side, you can still use scrolls, staffs, wands and stuff. I think.

[afroakuma]

Oh, probably.

[Keld Denar]

Since the magic sponge ability is SU, would using a scroll of AMF negate it, or just supress it for the duration of the AMF? I'm scheming for all I'm worth here....

[afroakuma]

Okay, well first of all you peeked. Second of all, do you really want to risk it?

Thirdly, your caster levels have been drained. That's like asking if you gain back negative levels while the vampire's in an antimagic field.

[Heliomance]

Heh, asking how to get around something your DM's done to you on a board your DM frequents? Not the best idea :P

[Keld Denar]

Well, its just for a PbP mock combat of my party of 4 level 11 dudes against a CR17 encounter of Afroakuma's homebrewed monsters. Its not really a game, more like a combat simulation. If my characters all die, it just proves that I need to work on my optimization skills :P

Thats why I asked the boards. Plus, I'm at work and can't really access the SRD to look up an answer for it myself.

And I didn't peek. I recognized the ability from one of the combats that one of the other players tried. Its not a real peek :P

[afroakuma]

Adumbration's clue to you. Nice.

Well, in that cause you know how to deal with them now. The remainder will occupy you, though.

[Flickerdart]

What about the Wild Mage's -3+1d6 CL thing? It can still put him below 1 (technically). What does that mean for his spellcasting?

[shadow_archmagi]

This could have all kinds of neat and useful reprocussions. For one thing, spells with 1 round/level would persist for an UNROUND, allowing you to hinder foes BEFORE casting your spell. Also, damage-dealing spells would heal.

[AmberVael]

Spellgifted trait gives +1 to one school and -1 to all others. That could help you drop to negatives.

Just tossing another way to decrease CL out there.

Edit: Hmm, Wizard/Mageslayer/Wildmage with spellgifted....
"My unmagic will destroy you! Or... well, hinder me. Crap."

[The Minx]

I don't think that casting spells with negative CL makes any sense. Seriously, would a Fireball heal those it hits, then? Does a spell with -2 rounds duration begin before it is cast, altering history? Nopers.

[Keld Denar]

Vael, this is the reason I asked. Very very ouchies. Level 11 wizard with a caster level of 12 all of a sudden having a CL of -4...

Stupid 20' AoE spells...

[AmberVael]

Yeah, I didn't think I was really helping with much. Just musing in a slightly on topic way.

That seems like a really nasty effect though.

[Starbuck_II]

Vael, this is the reason I asked. Very very ouchies. Level 11 wizard with a caster level of 12 all of a sudden having a CL of -4...

Stupid 20' AoE spells...

So He can't cast a spells? Wow.

He still has them for reserve feats or Arcane Strike feat I guess.

[afroakuma]

Oh, I so hoped he'd go for an even bigger radius, catch the full -18.

Or that Keld wouldn't get wise in time, and would try something else in that area.

[Keld Denar]

You were just mad that I instaganked your entire encounter at the top of the 2nd encounter, so you made the Call Mook ability a standard action, thus provoking me to try to hit you with something big. I'm pretty sure that I killed the big one and the one little one, and relatively certain I would have disrupted the other little one's summon with my port n pwn tactic.

*grumble*

[afroakuma]

Of course I was. You instagank everything because you use far more resources than my poor core+homebrew monsters to build retardedly optimized characters that would render every single trial utterly useless.

In other words, to make there be any point at all to this exercise, I had no choice. So instead of summon monster, they use gate.

Actually, I still am. There's little point in these continued two-round kills that I'm seeing across the board. Unless my monsters have access to the same items, feats and spells (which for logical reasons they cannot) the trials are a farce. I had no idea there was still this much that could be so ridiculously exploited.

*sigh* I hate optimization.

[Keld Denar]

Sowwy...I'm just used to playing at a high level of optimization. My last DM had a nasty tendancy of throwing 2 Swordsage levels on top of EVERYTHING. Its amazing how many more tricks a Basilisk has when it can Shadow Blink at you...

[afroakuma]

See, I don't even know ToB.

If someone wants to hand me a pamphlet of DM optimization tricks, then there might be some point.

As is, right now I'm going to pull all self-run trials after these two. No more time from me setting up grids and encounters to get mashed in five posts.

[Starbuck_II]

Actually, I still am. There's little point in these continued two-round kills that I'm seeing across the board. Unless my monsters have access to the same items, feats and spells (which for logical reasons they cannot) the trials are a farce. I had no idea there was still this much that could be so ridiculously exploited.

*sigh* I hate optimization.

Well, to be fair, that is why these fights have a point to see what happens when your monsters face standard D&D allowed products.

BTW, what monster sponges caster level?

[Keld Denar]

This one.

Nasty little bugger, and really can be tacked on to most encounters without affecting the EL, and still making a huge difference. Its like the Blackguard who wears a suit of armor made out of babies so you can't Fireball him into the next world.

Of course, this hurts more....soooooo much more...