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Thread: Negative Caster Level
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2009-01-18, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Negative Caster Level
So...lets pretend that there is a wizard. This wizard has something...very bad...happen to him. His CL has been reduced to below 0. Its very very very unfortunate...
Now, could said wizard still cast any spells?
What about instantaneous spells with no level dependant features?
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2009-01-18, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Can CL even go below 0?
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2009-01-18, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-01-18, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
My initial thought would be that you could still cast your spells normally, but anything with a */level duration or a level-dependent effect would be ineffective (cast, but useless). That would seem like the inverse of the way CL-increasing effects work. Not sure if that's RAW, but it seems intuitive.
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2009-01-18, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
The wizard can definitely cast spells, but they're just not as good as they would be otherwise. I'm NOT sure, however, about whether or not the CL would actually be negative, or if there's a minimum of 0 for it.
Either way, it'd suck for all those "1 round/level" spells and stuff like that. Some spells, like ray of frost, though, wouldn't be affected besides for determining range. Basically, you'd be stuck with spells that have automatic effects (magic missile, color spray) that DON'T depend on CL.Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-01-18 at 02:09 PM.
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2009-01-18, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-01-18, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Well, there is some precedent in the Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level, which has the drawback of giving you -1 to your caster level to either evocations, conjurations, or transmutations. It specifically states that a caster using this feature would not be able to cast spells of that school at 1st level.
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2009-01-18, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
So...if I have a CL of 12, and something imposes a -16 CL on me. After that, I use UMD to trip off a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads (DMG) to get +4 CL.
Would my CL then be 0 (12-16+4=0)?
Or would it be 12-16 to a minimum of 0, then +4 to be 4? I'm pretty sure the penalty is an ongoing thing, because it has a duration of 24 hours.
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2009-01-18, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Based on this:
Originally Posted by SRDNeed a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2009-01-18, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
On the plus side, you can still use scrolls, staffs, wands and stuff. I think.
Last edited by Adumbration; 2009-01-18 at 02:49 PM.
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2009-01-18, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Oh, probably.
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2009-01-18, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Since the magic sponge ability is SU, would using a scroll of AMF negate it, or just supress it for the duration of the AMF? I'm scheming for all I'm worth here....
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2009-01-18, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Okay, well first of all you peeked. Second of all, do you really want to risk it?
Thirdly, your caster levels have been drained. That's like asking if you gain back negative levels while the vampire's in an antimagic field.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2009-01-18, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Heh, asking how to get around something your DM's done to you on a board your DM frequents? Not the best idea :P
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2009-01-18, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Well, its just for a PbP mock combat of my party of 4 level 11 dudes against a CR17 encounter of Afroakuma's homebrewed monsters. Its not really a game, more like a combat simulation. If my characters all die, it just proves that I need to work on my optimization skills :P
Thats why I asked the boards. Plus, I'm at work and can't really access the SRD to look up an answer for it myself.
And I didn't peek. I recognized the ability from one of the combats that one of the other players tried. Its not a real peek :P
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2009-01-18, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Adumbration's clue to you. Nice.
Well, in that cause you know how to deal with them now. The remainder will occupy you, though.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2009-01-18, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-01-18, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
This could have all kinds of neat and useful reprocussions. For one thing, spells with 1 round/level would persist for an UNROUND, allowing you to hinder foes BEFORE casting your spell. Also, damage-dealing spells would heal.
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2009-01-18, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Spellgifted trait gives +1 to one school and -1 to all others. That could help you drop to negatives.
Just tossing another way to decrease CL out there.
Edit: Hmm, Wizard/Mageslayer/Wildmage with spellgifted....
"My unmagic will destroy you! Or... well, hinder me. Crap."Last edited by AmberVael; 2009-01-18 at 07:23 PM.
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2009-01-18, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
I don't think that casting spells with negative CL makes any sense. Seriously, would a Fireball heal those it hits, then? Does a spell with -2 rounds duration begin before it is cast, altering history? Nopers.
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2009-01-18, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Vael, this is the reason I asked. Very very ouchies. Level 11 wizard with a caster level of 12 all of a sudden having a CL of -4...
Stupid 20' AoE spells...
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2009-01-18, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Yeah, I didn't think I was really helping with much. Just musing in a slightly on topic way.
That seems like a really nasty effect though.
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2009-01-18, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
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2009-01-18, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Oh, I so hoped he'd go for an even bigger radius, catch the full -18.
Or that Keld wouldn't get wise in time, and would try something else in that area.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2009-01-18, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
You were just mad that I instaganked your entire encounter at the top of the 2nd encounter, so you made the Call Mook ability a standard action, thus provoking me to try to hit you with something big. I'm pretty sure that I killed the big one and the one little one, and relatively certain I would have disrupted the other little one's summon with my port n pwn tactic.
*grumble*
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2009-01-18, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Of course I was. You instagank everything because you use far more resources than my poor core+homebrew monsters to build retardedly optimized characters that would render every single trial utterly useless.
In other words, to make there be any point at all to this exercise, I had no choice. So instead of summon monster, they use gate.
Actually, I still am. There's little point in these continued two-round kills that I'm seeing across the board. Unless my monsters have access to the same items, feats and spells (which for logical reasons they cannot) the trials are a farce. I had no idea there was still this much that could be so ridiculously exploited.
*sigh* I hate optimization.Last edited by afroakuma; 2009-01-18 at 08:01 PM.
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2009-01-18, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
Sowwy...I'm just used to playing at a high level of optimization. My last DM had a nasty tendancy of throwing 2 Swordsage levels on top of EVERYTHING. Its amazing how many more tricks a Basilisk has when it can Shadow Blink at you...
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2009-01-18, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
See, I don't even know ToB.
If someone wants to hand me a pamphlet of DM optimization tricks, then there might be some point.
As is, right now I'm going to pull all self-run trials after these two. No more time from me setting up grids and encounters to get mashed in five posts.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2009-01-18, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
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2009-01-18, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Negative Caster Level
This one.
Nasty little bugger, and really can be tacked on to most encounters without affecting the EL, and still making a huge difference. Its like the Blackguard who wears a suit of armor made out of babies so you can't Fireball him into the next world.
Of course, this hurts more....soooooo much more...