LGBTitp - part III

[Tamburlaine]

Something to really piss y'all off

By Gungnir's shaft! That book is absolutely fascinating. It's extremely interesting to read about the arguments some of these people make, though I must admit my reactions shifted between anger, sadness, and extreme amusement at rapid intervals while I was reading.

[Neithan]

Note: This older-brother discovery would probably have something like "Homosexual males are significantly more likely to have more than one older brother." Like I said before, it's about trends, not rules. And I'm willing to bet that bisexuals are either a product of all the other factors that influence homosexuality, or are somewhere in between the brotherly trends.

From my understanding, well to be precise, from my completely unfounded feelings, bisexuality is not "half-homosexuality". As a kid I thought bisexuals understand homosexuals better. Now I understand them even less.
But that's okay. This stuff is so freaking complicated, who needs to understand it, when they can live with it?

[Player_Zero]

I like how people in those articles don't know the difference between correlation and causation.

I wish people would stop using bastardized statistics to promote their own personal agendas.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Hmm. I read some of that book, (What? No time. Rushrushrushrushstudystudystudystudy.) and it made me rather sad, and more than a little worried. Bah, I have exams and assignments to worry about. The validity and health of my lifestyle can wait until later.

Hopefully.

[Lyesmith]

Hmm. An interesting read, t'be sure.

We had a discussion 'bout kids, yet?
I'd be interested in seeing what people think of havin' em, et-cetera.

[Collin152]

Hmm. An interesting read, t'be sure.

We had a discussion 'bout kids, yet?
I'd be interested in seeing what people think of havin' em, et-cetera.

Well, we might, but then we end up with me saying things like "I want a son, and I will name him Lucifer."
Incidently, on the behalf of my boyfriend, who is not of these forums, he would only want a single daughter, whom he would name Xoe.

[rankrath]

Kids, for me, would be a horrible idea. I don't deal with stupidity well, or little kids as a whole. (Cute? No, they're not cute. They're loud, stupid, and annoying). But if I somehow ended up having a kid, Lucifer would be an awesome name.

[Anuan]

I wish for two children, with at least one boy. The first son's name shall be William Felix, after a knight with that first name way back in my lineage and after our very own Felixaar. A second son would be called Jack Tobias. After nobody. I can't seem to hold onto any girl's names definitively...

[Ishmael]

It's kind of apparent how the author of that aformentioned book began with the assumption that deviance from the heterosexual orientation was something wrong, and needed to be fixed. It's an underlying assumption that isn't dealt with, but forms the basis of the entire novel. It assumes that something is broken, and needs to be fixed, as if being homo/bi/whatever else-sexual is completely a psychologically constructed syndrome, or something.

Ugh. Such a book isn't worth it's weight in academia. It operates on false premises and is totally fallacious. It's not meant, of course, to be a real inquiry into developmental psychology, but rather as a vehicle to reinforce an specific ideology. Gagh!

[SMEE]

I haven't searched the thread to see if there are any similar queries, so my apologies in advance if this comes up every two pages or something. Anyway, here's the deal... I was raised in a fairly homophobic home and, I'm afraid, was rather intolerant myself until the latter half of high school. Then, toward the end of high school I began to realize... well, to cut a long story short I began to realize I was being a jerk. And not just a garden-variety jerk, a hypocritical jerk, because I was certainly checking out a lot of lesbian porn while denouncing homosexuality as unnatural. So anyway, I stopped making an ass of myself, but for a while I continued feeling uncomfortable around portrayals of male homosexuality. Then during my first year of college I saw RENT, and for the first time I felt myself connect on an emotional level with a homosexual couple. After that I began feeling like a hypocrite again... I was proudly calling myself tolerant simply because I wasn't actively harassing homosexuals anymore, but I was making no attempt to actually become comfortable around them or to understand them in any way. So I decided, almost certainly fallaciously, that since what I didn't understand about male homosexuals was their ability to be sexually attracted to men, the surest way to come to an understanding of them would be by watching gay porn. The thing is, now I DO understand, the part about being sexually attracted to males anyway. It's not a universal thing, I don't find all guys attractive... but then, I don't find all women attractive either. I'd say I'm attracted to a significantly greater percentage of women than of men, but I can't can't call the homosexual lust statistically insignificant anymore.

The upshot of all this is that I'm not quite sure what to consider myself anymore. I mean, I'm obviously trending toward bisexuality, but at the same time I definitely prefer women... It's just that sexual attractiveness isn't exclusively a feminine domain anymore. And then... I'm not sure if this can be printed on GitP or not, actually... but then there's this... I can find the prospect of oral or intercrural intercourse with another man arousing, but I still can't bring myself to conceive engaging in anal sex. Can you consider yourself bisexual/homosexual without being turned on by anal sex? I just don't know. And it's still not the sort of question I feel comfortable asking, well, non-anonymously.

I know this probably sounds like I'm horribly objectifying women AND men, treating them both like sex objects, but the simple fact of the matter is that love isn't what I don't understand. Sexual attraction is what I don't understand. And so that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Help?

Well, we have a friend asking for some clarification. I'll get back to this after today trip of doom TM.

[mercurymaline]

@ SMEE's Anonymous poster:

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it a lot. There is no need to figure out a label for your sexuality. You've already proven it's not set in stone anyway. After determining that you are attracted to some men and some women, that's really all you need to know. Just be receptive to people your body and mind are saying they're attracted to, don't stop and say "I can't think he's pretty, I don't like men," or any such thing.

If you need a simple label for conversation, I'd say you could call yourself bisexual. Or bisexual, with a preference for women. I'm not saying you need a label, but I do know it's good to have an easy to understand answer if the question comes up socially. For example, I refer to myself as bisexual in casual conversation, just because when I say I'm pansexual, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about.

[Serpentine]

Straight-but-flexible/heteroflexible! =D

I think it's pretty cool that you worked all that through yourself. Well done

[Coidzor]

See, I just hit people who tried to force me to say something about what to call myself. Then again, there weren't very many people trying to do that, what with the fact they were mostly busying trying to set up a GSA at my school.

And then I got chased into a bedroom with a baseball bat and a tomahawk.... (both of which were mine, which was... annoying)

In the end I found my affection for other males to be more of a kind of adoration as one admires one's leader or a respected individual in one's field than a type of lust. Then again, I was fairly weird to begin with.


If I were feeling generous, I'd say they were going the wrong direction in thinking that non-heterosexuality & altered gender-self-perception produced depression, anxiety, and bi-polar disorder in and of themselves. Ahh correlation versus causation...

Edit: I though the steps were murdering, actively hostile, passively hostile, tolerant, indifferent, accepting, embracing.... Am I getting confused again?

Ending Question: Doesn't matter. Look at Greeks.

...Look at enemies...Burn you the same for either of those activities...

[Ishmael]

Well, we have a friend asking for some clarification. I'll get back to this after today trip of doom TM.

So, this describes how I thought my situation was, initially. It's fine with being bisexual and having preferences towards a certain gender. I mean, the term 'bisexual' really just describes a shifting point on a sexual continuum.

Regarding the adult.physical-intimacy parts of the quotation, I must say, I COMPLETELY agree with your sentiments. I find, well, the full act of male-male bonding to be completely repulsive. But the 'softer' acts that you described (pardon my euphemisms) I find sexy, and highly desirable to engage in. And I consider myself bisexual. Everyone's allowed to have their sexual preferences.

I congratulate your admission! Admitting bicuriosity is a pretty big step, and it's certainly admirable. Actually, you're story closely resembled mine, in moving from initial disapproval to feelings of hypocrisy to exploring the world of gay porn and finding it highly attractive (sans penetration, that is).

[lsfreak]

One person's off-limits is another's kink is another's vanilla. I don't think being willing or unwilling to do a specific act is a good requisite for defining your orientation.

[Neithan]

If you need a simple label for conversation, I'd say you could call yourself bisexual. Or bisexual, with a preference for women. I'm not saying you need a label, but I do know it's good to have an easy to understand answer if the question comes up socially. For example, I refer to myself as bisexual in casual conversation, just because when I say I'm pansexual, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about.

You only need to label yourself, if you want to make yourself seperate from others.
But I don't care, I love my heterosexual friends.

You, know... as friends. ^^

[Ascension]

Uhh... Hi guys.

Anonaposter is me. I accidentally thought that message was lost, and before checking this thread and seeing that my original message had been posted, I tried to type it up again. As it turns out, the second version turned out to be a longer version. So, uhh, if that wasn't enough for you, here, have the Director's Cut, straight from the horse's mouth and, uhh... let's just roll the tape.

If this seems a bit flat, well, I lost the original version, and I've found that a story often suffers in its second telling. Still, I have a question to ask, and I've asked it once, so I can't let myself simply walk away at this point. So... here we go.

Throughout childhood I was indoctrinated with the paradoxical philosophy that homosexuality was morally objectionable, but so too was hatred of homosexuals. Asked to believe that it is possible to ostracize someone without truly hating them. And for a time I believed that. For too long a time.

[...] ((Segment that violates board's religious policy deleted. PM if curious.))

In high school a friend of mine came out of the closet. It was the first time I had ever personally known anyone who openly identified as homosexual. I sat beside him in AP American History. And when he told me... I couldn't disapprove. At the time I felt I should have, but proximity stilled my tongue. Hatred is far easier when the object of your hatred is impersonal, alien. It's downright impossible when the person you're supposed to be speaking against is a close friend.

Fear, though... fear is an entirely different matter. I didn't condemn him, no, but neither did I feel comfortable around him. I never said a disapproving word about his sexuality, but regardless, the fear was there. Our friendship didn't last the year.

Despite that, I was beginning to think myself tolerant. "After all," I told myself, "I'm not like my unenlightened parents. They just say they don't hate homosexuals. I really don't. I've even got a gay friend to prove it! Well, had a gay friend. Anyway, look at all this tolerance! Go me!"

In my first year of college I watched RENT. Angel and Collins were the first homosexual couple I was able to connect to on an emotional level. I realized that night that I was still being a hypocrite. It wasn't enough to simply refrain from active condemnation... I decided that I needed to at least make an attempt to understand homosexuality.

I approached my new problem in the way I approach most problems... reading. I read. I researched. But one thing continued to evade me. From childhood I had always held men in contempt. (Fun fact: I spent a great deal of elementary school wishing I could be a girl since almost all of the guys I knew were jerks. Between that and my play patterns, the Nicolosis from the parent's guide Serp posted back on pg. 10 would definitely have called me a prehomosexual child.) I couldn't understand how anyone could be sexually attracted to males. I had written off women being attracted to them... us... as merely a product of biological impulses... but how one man could be sexually attracted to another... that still eluded me. Love I could understand, but not sexual attraction.

So I decided to test myself. I started watching lesbian porn even before I stopped openly condemning homosexuality, so I figured it was only fair to turn the tables for once. So I watched some gay male porn. And some more. Read some erotica.

And, well... now I understand. Quite well, in fact. It's not a universal thing... but then, I'm not attracted to all women either. I can't ignore this any longer, the truth is that I'm finding myself attracted to a statistically significant percentage of my own gender. I think it's safe to say I still prefer women, but I'm definitely trending toward bisexuality.

My question, then, is this... I'm undeniably headed in the direction bisexuality, but am I bisexual yet? My standards for men are much more demanding, I find a greater percentage of women sexually attractive, I can more easily visualize myself in long-term relationships with women... And... hell, I'm not sure I can even say this on these forums, but the fact of the matter is that, though I'm turned on by the thought of oral or intercrural intercourse with another man, I cannot even bring myself to visualize engaging in anal sex. Though that's awfully Greek of me, I'm not even sure it's possible to be bisexual anymore without engaging in anal sex.

God, I realize all of this must seem awfully focused on physical attraction, and I'm objectifying both women and men, but the thing is, physical attraction is what I don't understand. Love... love is different. I won't make claims to understand it, but at least I have more experience with it.

...

Oh, blast. Now I see you did get the anonmail message and you already posted it. Crap. Well, here, have a longer version.

The question, of course, has already been answered, but I (vainly, I suppose) thought you might want to hear a bit more of the backstory, so... Ehh.

[Phae Nymna]

"on the behalf of my boyfriend, who is not of these forums"

"And, lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty, and beauty
stayed his hand. And from that day forward, he was as one dead."



*mopes*

[mercurymaline]

@Ascension:

My advice remains unchanged.

If you find yourself liking someone, don't discredit it out of hand due to genitalia. Just go with the flow, it's less stressful that way.

[Ascension]

@Ascension:

My advice remains unchanged.

If you find yourself liking someone, don't discredit it out of hand due to genitalia. Just go with the flow, it's less stressful that way.

Well, yeah, I didn't really expect anything to change, I just...

I don't know why I posted the long version. I'd say I just like to hear myself speak, but since I'm typing, that wouldn't make much sense, now would it?

[golentan]

From my understanding, well to be precise, from my completely unfounded feelings, bisexuality is not "half-homosexuality". As a kid I thought bisexuals understand homosexuals better. Now I understand them even less.
But that's okay. This stuff is so freaking complicated, who needs to understand it, when they can live with it?

Personally, I don't think I'll ever understand anyone who can describe themselves as a word ending in "sexual" and beginning with something other than "omni" or "pan..." I like almost everything I see.

My problems with sexual orientation seem to be with the perceptions of others. My family is loving, supporting, and has no idea what the heck they're talking about. I had to spend half an hour that bisexuality did not imply polyamory any more than heterosexuality implied monogamy. And awkward conversation, to be sure.

[Neithan]

I also find it hard to understand.

Heterosexuals could be people who just grew up in a letent homophobic environment and have become to associate anthing homosexual as somewhat squicky.

But what twisted circumstances would make people, who don't have these hangups, develop some against heterosexual contact? So apparently this approach doesn't work at all.

For myself, I am attracted to certain aspects of a persons character and appearance, that are mostly found in women. But when these aspects happen to be found in a person who by coincidence happens to be a man, that's completely irrelevant to me. Or in a person who happens to be not being so easily marked with a gender label. It's simply nothing that matters to me.

I do understand (or rather have the illusion to know) how people come to have a revulsion about homosexual contact or all types of transgender people, which I attribute to poor social examples. In my country eating insects and certains sea animals is disgusting, but as people in many places to that, it's just our social upbringing.

But, so I've heard and read, there are homosexuals who don't just find people of the other(s) gender(s) not attractive, but the idea of heterosexual contact repulsive. this really puzzles me. I have no idea how this might come to happen.

But as said before, I just don't understand it. There's no harm for anyone if they do, so I see no reason why this should be a bad thing.

[Ascension]

But, so I've heard and read, there are homosexuals who don't just find people of the other(s) gender(s) not attractive, but the idea of heterosexual contact repulsive. this really puzzles me. I have no idea how this might come to happen.

I can at least understand it from the lesbian perspective, I think. I mean, most men are jerks. Our culture expects men to be jerks, associates jerkishness with masculinity, hard codes patriarchal oppressiveness into the male psyche from infancy. We're not universally bad, no, but I can easily see how one could associate enough negative traits with men to swear off the entire gender... at least I think I can.

[Coidzor]

I can at least understand it from the lesbian perspective, I think. I mean, most men are jerks. Our culture expects men to be jerks, associates jerkishness with masculinity, hard codes patriarchal oppressiveness into the male psyche from infancy. We're not universally bad, no, but I can easily see how one could associate enough negative traits with men to swear off the entire gender... at least I think I can.

See.... Those are the kinds of lesbians that no longer still need excuses, but rather than grow and embrace themselves from the inside, define themselves from the outside and never develop past said point of self-delusion.

As such they are a pathetic and ignoble group that clashes with the feminist movement they try to hide within and the progress that has been made in society in general.

If one wants to get into how we're raised, there's a lot less overt, conscious drumming of homophobia into women and they're allowed, even encouraged to open up to one another and form close, intimate relationships with their friends such that it might actually be easier for them to recognize and admit the element of lust there.

[Collin152]

"And, lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty, and beauty
stayed his hand. And from that day forward, he was as one dead."



*mopes*

Calm down, the verdict was thrown out when they called a mistrial.

By that I mean?
He might not consider me to be his boyfriend, and might, in fact, not like me at all, and have been lying to me the whole time, even when I confronted him about it.
So yeah, Walrus, don't be sad. Honestly! Come here, and rest thine head against my shoulder, and let us breathe sighs of anguish o'er the trials that do befall us.

[rankrath]

Calm down, the verdict was thrown out when they called a mistrial.

By that I mean?
He might not consider me to be his boyfriend, and might, in fact, not like me at all, and have been lying to me the whole time, even when I confronted him about it.
So yeah, Walrus, don't be sad. Honestly! Come here, and rest thine head against my shoulder, and let us breathe sighs of anguish o'er the trials that do befall us.

That sucks, and is bad news for you. Good news for the rest of us vultures though.

*circles*

[Anuan]

Ca-caw?
In other news, I've recently had a bunch of guys hitting on me really heavily

[Ishmael]

I swear, either my 'dar's totally messed up, or really well-tuned: I'm beginning to suspect several people I knew before to be queer in some way, and many of them have been confirmed. Interesting...

[turkishproverb]

Ca-caw?
In other news, I've recently had a bunch of guys hitting on me really heavily

Interesting. Define "Bunch"

[Anuan]

Like, four of them in the last week and a half. Has happened really suddenly.