Wheel of Time d20

[MammonAzrael]

A couple days ago I heard the announcement that several video games were gong to be made based of the series, including an MMO. That made me think of the d20 version I picked up some years ago, but never got a chance to play. I was wondering if anyone here has played it, and how was it?

[JaxGaret]

I haven't played it, but the spellcasting classes look interesting.

[sombrastewart]

A couple days ago I heard the announcement that several video games were gong to be made based of the series, including an MMO. That made me think of the d20 version I picked up some years ago, but never got a chance to play. I was wondering if anyone here has played it, and how was it?

I've run several campaigns of it. Quick recap:

-First game I ran had an Aes Sedai, her Warder, a wanderer and the most martial Ogier you've ever heard of. They stopped a Black sister from getting away with a cache of ter-angreal and had a nice showdown on the north side of Caemlyn.

-Two Ebou Dari brothers of a wealthy merchant family (wanderer and Blademaster) stopped an attempt at toppling Tylin from the throne and gained noble status for their family.

-Two runaway Accepted went to help their brigand father on the Plains of Maredo. Believe it or not, two wanderers brought them in. Tactics, man, tactics!

-The last game had a group of 3 go to Cairhien to bring back a piece of cuendillar that was purchased by their noble employer. Turned out to be one of the seals and they were ambushed, as well as having Padan Fain try to steal the seal from them.

Class bonuses go a long, long way in WoT d20 because you can't get flaming swords, or any magic weapon, unless you're a channeler. Does that mean you can't build Rand al'Thor? No, you can, but Rand is obviously a special case. I'd do things like having heron-mark blades give bonuses to intimidate and that sort of thing, though.

I especially like the prestige classes. The Blademaster is one of my favorite PrC's from any d20 game, and Gleeman, Warder and Aes Sedai are really good, too. The bond between Aes Sedai and Warder, involving exchanges on saves is a great representation.

So yeah, I like it.

[JaxGaret]

Class bonuses go a long, long way in WoT d20 because you can't get flaming swords, or any magic weapon, unless you're a channeler. Does that mean you can't build Rand al'Thor? No, you can, but Rand is obviously a special case. I'd do things like having heron-mark blades give bonuses to intimidate and that sort of thing, though.

I especially like the prestige classes. The Blademaster is one of my favorite PrC's from any d20 game, and Gleeman, Warder and Aes Sedai are really good, too. The bond between Aes Sedai and Warder, involving exchanges on saves is a great representation.

So yeah, I like it.

That sounds awesome. Wish I knew more people who had read the series.

[Arros Winhadren]

I'd be interested in playing them myself if I ever got my hands on the sourcebooks. It's about time to start re-reading the series for this next winter when the last one is supposed to come out.

[BobVosh]

Sombra is right. The blademaster is awesome, and a few others are neat but I didn't really look at it.

When I played I was the ranger class (not sure what was called...but ranger is what he was). Then I went wolf brother which was a hell of a lot of fun.

Few things to note: Spellcasting is really too good. To the point that some spell that just removes things was our favorite option of removing bodies so people didnt know we were there.

Also I tried to get one of the weavers to use...harden air? Can't remember but basically holds someone still and blows air across thier body. I wanted to get one of them to tie a weaver to a table and make the first air hockey table in existance.

Our DM was kinda stupid as u may of noticed.

Also you can get into wolf brother (PrC) at level 1. Boat loads of madness. Level 2 you only take like 2d6 or maybe 3d6. Considering that it takes 20 madness to have a negative effect that is fine.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The game is incredibly unbalanced. The Weave-users are absolutely overpowered compared to mundanes - it's pretty much worse than the spellcaster advantage in D&D 3.5. (Really, why not have rules for playing ta'veren that put them on an equal footing with Weave-users? It seems about as likely that a PC be a channeler as a ta'veren...)

Of course, being that it is not a game of encounters and combat and XP, that may matter very little. It also helps that the Weave-users don't have a fraction of the selection of any D&D spellcaster, and can't solve every situation with magic, thus making everyone else superfluous.

[sombrastewart]

That sounds awesome. Wish I knew more people who had read the series.

Jax, for what it's worth, of my players, only one has read all the books. Two of them got to Shadow Rising before they quit and the rest have never read any of them.

Bob, you can't get into a Wolf Brother PrC at level one. It's not possible. But it brings up the fun point of stuff like getting the ability to be a Dreamer or a Sniffer means you first have to take the Latent ability as a prereq.

As for the channelers being too powerful, remember that you're forced to specialized. You have to take your Talents and Affinities, and you can't just be a Batman without getting to higher levels and burning off feats like a maniac.

Is it absolutely balanced? No. I've only run one campaign with a channeler in it because I only have one copy of the book. I plan to have another copy of it before too long, just have to find the damn thing.

[Krrth]

It's a lot of fun. My blademaster/warder is one of my favorite characters.

sombrastewart
It may not be level one, but you can get into it really early. You take madness for every pre-req you don't have.

[Triaxx]

The trouble with Wheel of Time is that you have to have a running start to get all the way to the end. I tried to re-read it in preperation for 11, but I stalled when I couldn't find Shadow Rising, and stopped. I've found the book, but I know that I have to go back and start over for it all... most... some... parts of it to make sense.

[Blackfang108]

The trouble with Wheel of Time is that you have to have a running start to get all the way to the end. I tried to re-read it in preperation for 11, but I stalled when I couldn't find Shadow Rising, and stopped. I've found the book, but I know that I have to go back and start over for it all... most... some... parts of it to make sense.

True that.

And I usually hit a speed bump around 5 or 6.

><

[Tsotha-lanti]

Jax, for what it's worth, of my players, only one has read all the books. Two of them got to Shadow Rising before they quit and the rest have never read any of them.

Seriously, as an RPG setting, it's pretty damn cool. As novels, they are terrifyingly bad (and I say this as someone who's slogged through all of them so far; what can I say, I am a literary masochist - I even read Eddings' Tales of Tamuli, cursing at every single page...). Jordan should have stuck with writing mediocre Conan stories.

I read the books as they came out, and couldn't imagine trying to re-read them all in a row now. (Which, yes, you have to do, because Jordan would introduce and then re-use, often as POV characters, way too many third- and fourth-row-characters, and you need to take notes while reading to keep track of everything going on.)

So you're probably just plain better off enjoying it as a RPG than trying to read the novels as well.

[sombrastewart]

Seriously, as an RPG setting, it's pretty damn cool. As novels, they are terrifyingly bad (and I say this as someone who's slogged through all of them so far; what can I say, I am a literary masochist - I even read Eddings' Tales of Tamuli, cursing at every single page...). Jordan should have stuck with writing mediocre Conan stories.

I read the books as they came out, and couldn't imagine trying to re-read them all in a row now. (Which, yes, you have to do, because Jordan would introduce and then re-use, often as POV characters, way too many third- and fourth-row-characters, and you need to take notes while reading to keep track of everything going on.)

So you're probably just plain better off enjoying it as a RPG than trying to read the novels as well.

I absolutely, wholeheartedly disagree. The world is immersive and detailed, and that's not for everyone, which I readily acknowledge. I enjoyed the hell out of the books and look forward to the end of the series.

If you have players that don't want to read the series, though, there is another option: find a copy of The World of The Wheel of Time. It's got details about history and the world, and it's the kind of thing you might give to a scholarly player, like a noble or Aes Sedai.

That's another thing I like about the RPG: the Noble class isn't useless. Think of something similar to the Marshal, but without magic items, those buffs become important.

[sombrastewart]

It's a lot of fun. My blademaster/warder is one of my favorite characters.

sombrastewart
It may not be level one, but you can get into it really early. You take madness for every pre-req you don't have.

If I've missed that rule, my players haven't suffered for it. Madness is enough of a specter in the game that people I play with want to avoid it as much as possible.

[Krrth]

If I've missed that rule, my players haven't suffered for it. Madness is enough of a specter in the game that people I play with want to avoid it as much as possible.

I understand completely. The player in our group who went Wolf Brother took...I think two dice of madness, in return for the two feats he didn't have. The earlier you take the class, the more likely you are to be totally unplayable.

[Hzurr]

I'm a fan of the system.

One issue (and if you've read the books, this is also an obvious issue in the books) is that casters are significantly more powerful than non-casters. To an absurd degree. If your players are ok with having different levels of power, than there shouldn't be an issue, but everyone should be aware of it.

That being said, it's a good world, and you can have some really amazing, epic adventures in it.

Be aware that traditional "magic items" and things like that are super rare, so traditional d&d players might have a tough time getting used to that idea.

Also, the madness rules are a lot of fun, but they will make your PCs go crazy, so be prepared.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, users of the One Power are much, much more powerful than anything else. What do you expect? It might not be the best decision of all time but they chose to stick with the source material, where 200 Asha'man destroyed an army of 40,000 Aiel without any real problem.

The only real way to take down a channeler when you yourself aren't one is surprise and proper planning.

If you have a group of mature players the power differences don't really matter and being a channeler attracts all kinds of attention. If an Aes Sedai shows up in a city or town every spy, noble, merchant, and guard starts to wonder why and begins to interfere. And male channelers who become known get the Red Ajah after them.

[Optimystik]

I read the whole series (minus the forthcoming AMoL, obviously) about 3 times so far, and I'm in love with it. I think it's the best fantasy saga out there. It's amazing how well he balanced a world in which casters have such obscene advantages against normal folks.

Anyhow, if you want an excellent WoT experience in a more bite-sized portion, just read the standalone prequel novel New Spring. It's only shown through two POVs (for those of you who feel you have to "take notes" during the full series) and contains just enough of magic and intrigue to be immersive without being overwhelming.

[AppleChips]

I read the series multiple times, and I've heard about the d20 system, but I couldn't find much information on it. They don't print the book anymore, do they?

[Optimystik]

I read the series multiple times, and I've heard about the d20 system, but I couldn't find much information on it. They don't print the book anymore, do they?

Found both on Amazon (Core book is "The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game", and expansion is "Prophecies of The Dragon.")

I also found a free(?) sourcebook titled "Under the Dragon's Banner" in PDF form, complete with prestigle classes like Aiel Spear Dancer, Defender of the Stone, Whitecloak and Wisdom, of all things.

[Count Platypus]

i've never heard of a source book for it. As for power balance, it's easy to say without playing it that the casters are overpowered, but having played a campaign to level 11 as one, with the other guy i play with as an aiel, he carried us through just as many times as i did.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I absolutely, wholeheartedly disagree. The world is immersive and detailed, and that's not for everyone, which I readily acknowledge. I enjoyed the hell out of the books and look forward to the end of the series.

That's why I said it's cool as an RPG setting. You can get away with the incredible, ridiculous cliches, giggle-inducing naming, and ripping off Dune and Tolkien wholesale in an RPG setting (seriously, you'd think Brian Herbert would have sued already), but not in a novel. (You also can't get away with really, really bad and thick writing and using more characters than anyone can possibly remember. Ugh.)

Heck, even Fading Suns only ripped off the "dueling with blades and energy shields" and "medieval spacefarers" parts of Dune. Jordan just went for broke, directly porting over Fremen, Bene Gesserit witches, Muad'dib... and then tacking on orcs and Sauron and magic (admittedly pretty cool magic; it's one of my favorite "systems" if magic in modern fantasy).

I'd say he ripped off Eddings, too, but I think they were both just so incredibly derivative that the works ended up similar. Besides, who'd rip off Eddings? (Er, except Paolini...) That man wore things down to cliches all by himself, writing the same series four times over.


But yeah. The game is fun enough. The novels I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.


As a complete tangent, Mongoose's excellent Conan d20 uses various Jordan-original (I think, anyhow) characters as canon characters.

[MammonAzrael]

Very cool, I'm glad to see it was fairly functional. And I'm glad to see the power levels, while not balanced, were respected.

I had no idea there was another book for it, I only have the first one. How is Prophecies of the Dragon?

On the books, I think we should probably just leave the discussion there. There are plenty of people who love Jordan's work, and there are just as many that think it awful. The two groups will never convert the other, so lets all just agree to disagree on the quality of the books, eh?

Oh, and on that note of the unrivaled supremacy of the One Power, I wonder how any MMO would balance that with other classes...?

[Triaxx]

Balancing channelers with normals? I gave them Warlock style powers, then made the powers do Non-lethal damage to the user. So they could litterally work themselves into unconsciousness.

[sombrastewart]

Very cool, I'm glad to see it was fairly functional. And I'm glad to see the power levels, while not balanced, were respected.

I had no idea there was another book for it, I only have the first one. How is Prophecies of the Dragon?

Prophecies of the Dragon is an adventure that goes from level 1 to 6, IIRC, and parallels the events of books 1 through 3, right up until Rand takes Callandor. I haven't purchased it, since I prefer to run my stories before the ascent of the Dragon Reborn.

Oh, and on that note of the unrivaled supremacy of the One Power, I wonder how any MMO would balance that with other classes...?

I figure it'd be the same flavor as so many other MMO's.

[Wanderlust]

That's why I said it's cool as an RPG setting. You can get away with the incredible, ridiculous cliches, giggle-inducing naming, and ripping off Dune and Tolkien wholesale in an RPG setting (seriously, you'd think Brian Herbert would have sued already), but not in a novel. (You also can't get away with really, really bad and thick writing and using more characters than anyone can possibly remember. Ugh.)

Heck, even Fading Suns only ripped off the "dueling with blades and energy shields" and "medieval spacefarers" parts of Dune. Jordan just went for broke, directly porting over Fremen, Bene Gesserit witches, Muad'dib... and then tacking on orcs and Sauron and magic (admittedly pretty cool magic; it's one of my favorite "systems" if magic in modern fantasy).

I'd say he ripped off Eddings, too, but I think they were both just so incredibly derivative that the works ended up similar. Besides, who'd rip off Eddings? (Er, except Paolini...) That man wore things down to cliches all by himself, writing the same series four times over.


But yeah. The game is fun enough. The novels I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.


As a complete tangent, Mongoose's excellent Conan d20 uses various Jordan-original (I think, anyhow) characters as canon characters.

Ouch, too soon. Jordan was a great author who built a great fantasy world, one that countless people have enjoyed (I've read it through 3 times myself). You speak as if he's the only one who has borrowed themes or ideas from fantasy literature. Seems like there aren't many completely original ideas out there anymore; at least he put a good story together and his own spin on traditional fantasy concepts (and I agree that his magic system of channeling is a very cool concept thats very design opens up nearly limitless options for an author to explore).

To the topic of this thread, which is the Wheel of Time RPG, not picking apart Robert Jordan's series, I personally have always wanted to give it a try and I regret not picking up a copy when it used to be in stores. I might amazon this one some day, as my D&D group are all fans of the series and would love to give it a whirl. Thanks for the reviews!

[JaxGaret]

Found both on Amazon (Core book is "The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game", and expansion is "Prophecies of The Dragon.")

I also found a free(?) sourcebook titled "Under the Dragon's Banner" in PDF form, complete with prestigle classes like Aiel Spear Dancer, Defender of the Stone, Whitecloak and Wisdom, of all things.

Wow, thanks for the tip. I found a website with a bunch of WoT related D&D stuff. Particularly check the Downloads section.

http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/bekah/index.html

[Tsotha-lanti]

You speak as if he's the only one who has borrowed themes or ideas from fantasy literature.

I don't think I gave that impression at all: I also pointed out that Eddings and Paolini, two popular modern fantasy authors, are as bad or worse. I have read very little fantasy that I'd call original since Moorcock and Leiber (both of whom drew heavily on Howard and other Lovecraftian authors, but made something more from it). I know it's out there, but it's hard to find because it's not very popular.

And there's "borrowing themes" and "stealing wholesale entire famous stories." Seriously, when you actually take something right down to the tiny details ("a desert-dwelling warrior people identified by their peculiar eyes, with peculiar customs and phrases involving water"; am I talking about the Aiel or the Fremen there?), and then steal multiple things from the same source (Bene Gesserit = Aes Sedai, Muad'dib = Dragon Reborn, Septs = Sietches, etc.)... that's just awful writing.

There's not much of a spin - his actual style was pretty much the same as Eddings', but with too many characters and separate plotlines. (I'll grant that it's impressive that he could weave that many different threads into one story, but it didn't make the books good.) The only slight "spin" is the completely Moorcock-like (and not even exclusive to him) circular nature of time and heroes.

[The_Snark]

Not all of the world elements were original, but he had a couple of themes in there that you don't see used very often. Rather than a small group of nobodies from the middle of nowhere saving the world all by themselves, and becoming inseparable friends in the process, you have that same group of nobodies... spreading out, and saving the world by becoming world leaders, and in the process growing apart from one another, because they're all changing and have enough responsibilities that they can't blindly trust someone just because they're a childhood friend.

As for taking things from Dune... the Aes Sedai are very Bene Gesserit, yeah, but not badly done in spite of that. Comparing the Dragon Reborn myths to Muad'Dib is kind of ridiculous, because both are rather standard hero myths (and in Dune that was intentional). The Aiel are partly Fremen-inspired, but since a lot of what Frank Herbert used for the Fremen was borrowed from real-world desert cultures, I don't think they're quite as much of a ripoff as you think; just a standard fantasy desert culture.

Anyway... back to the thread's main topic, because this discussion could carry on for quite a while. Other people have said most of it already: the RPG fits the setting pretty well; channelers are more powerful than other characters, but that's very true to the books, and it doesn't make playing other characters less fun. The main problem I have with the rulebook is that it presents the world with a sort of D&D-like feel: unusual or rare race and class choices are presented as normal, making it seem like a party that contains normal people, initiates, an Ogier, and Aiel would be plausible, rather than being the extremely bizarre occurrence it would be in the books. I know it's written that way so as not to discourage people from playing the concept they like, but I've found that it tends to encourage having incredibly mismatched parties with insufficient explanation, because the DM doesn't want to reject concepts.

[Count Platypus]

i just remembered this, but they already did make a PC game based on the series. it's old; made in '99 or 2000, but it was a superb game, and the Shadar Logoth levels are some of the creepiest levels i've ever seen in a game. i would check it out if you can get your hands on a copy.